AnotherDilbert
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Killing off all fanon seems a bit harsh, but keeping it separate and clearly marked, like your example, would be better.
Do significant numbers of Solomani or Vilani reside within the Zhodani Consulate?
- Thread starter maksimsmelchak
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That was my thought when I started putting effort in and clearly labeling things "canon" and "non-canon" rather than sit on the sidelines. I consulted with Don quite often since he was the appointed one on such matters. May he rest in peace.
The Wiki reads:
For what it's worth.
Positive vibes to everyone!
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Not killing it off as much as segregating it.
As for the "None of this is canon" reminder found on the Wiki's front page, it's as worthless as the Wiki now is. You could repeat it on the top and bottom of each page in 72 point, capitalized, bold, font and people would still overlook it.
The Wiki needs a thorough flushing and then strict controls to prevent the inclusion of fanon lest some well-meaning soul pull another "Gannon".
Enoki
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Where I have the opposite opinion. Traveller would be better with more player generated "Canon" in it... So long as what's added follows the rules, isn't overwhelming in nature, and remains within the spirit of the game.
It might be voted on or some such to keep it. I see it the way UNIX as an operating system worked(s). The same thing allowed it to grow and be useful for decades. Details count, and letting players add them would only help the game.
When you make everything proprietary and difficult for users you limit the market. Microsoft succeeded because IBM demanded that DOS be open architecture. That let a mass of other companies write software and created a revolution in computing.
That may be a simplification, but it's pretty much accurate. Traveller's been around for what, 50 years nearly? It may well not survive much longer unless it adapts to the market and allows new blood.
I'm all for new blood and the more we get the better the game will be. The influx of new non-OTU settings and setting materials like Gypsy Knight's Clement Sector has helped Traveller tremendously.
The operative phrase being non-OTU materials. Non-OTU materials.
Currently, the Wiki's primary problem is that any well-meaning boob who can edit a wiki page can upload whatever crap they've written or found and call it OTU material.
That's why I think Star Trek's example of strictly differentiated wikis, Alpha for canon and Beta for "fanon", are the way to fix Traveller's wiki growing problem.
Rather than Alpha and Beta, we could use the labels OTU for canon and MTU for "fanon". Just as importantly, OTU and MTU materials would be on their own pages rather than jumbled together under one entry.
I could thus upload my Grote materials, for example, in the MTU/"fanon" section and no one would be confused about their canonicity. More importantly, I wouldn't be able to pretend or claim, either by "accident" or through "omission", that the materials are part of the OTU. The materials would be there for anyone to use, plunder, or ignore, there just wouldn't be any confusion about what they actually are.
Well, Whipsnade, glad to hear your take on things, you should definitely bring these ideas to Thomas Jones-Low and get more involved.
I was involved in both the Star Trek and Star Wars Wiki efforts and the greater community only benefits when new blood and ideas are brought in.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Enoki
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I'd simply add one step in that process. That is "fan" submissions go through a review process of some sort to ensure it meets the requirements of being within game rules, the spirit of the game, and such and could then be moved from "fanon" to canon.
This would give those playing a new level of connection to the game. The "universe" is very big place. Giving players a route to put official stuff into the game would be empowering as well as motivating.
With a vetting process you separate the two but also provide a route to making fan entries eventually official.
Enoki,
Thanks. Great ideas. Completely agree with you.
I have transferred the wiki discussion here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=542126#post542126
Let's get back to discussing Zhodani demographics and populations here on this thread... Before the topic wandered a bit. LOL
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Topic before abrupt change:
Many Vilani disappeared after the Vargr overran them... Expanding the Extents...
*** Is it possible that some of these "lost" humans could have joined the Zhodani? What sayeth you? ***
Essentially, that seems to be one of the subplots of the many rimward states "south" of the Zhodani Consulate.
Positive vibes to all!
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Many Vilani disappeared after the Vargr overran them... Expanding the Extents...
*** Is it possible that some of these "lost" humans could have joined the Zhodani? What sayeth you? ***
Essentially, that seems to be one of the subplots of the many rimward states "south" of the Zhodani Consulate.
Positive vibes to all!
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
On the basis of broad suspicions and occasional documentation, there would be a cloud of Vilani outposts around the borders of the First Imperium by the time the Terrans appeared. The disruption of routine that the next thousand years represent would cause some to grow, others to shrink or vanish, and still others to be cut off and become lost. I think we do have some documentation for at least a couple large scale and last minute colonial efforts by the Vilani or by Solomani/Vilani groups in at least two directions.
To spinward, we do know that the Vilani, in some form, got themselves lost at least as far as the spinward edge of Deneb (Enaaka, per DGP).
We have hints that RoM-era efforts in its closing years got as far as the spinward half of Corridor (Cirque).
As grist for the mill, there are three Minor Human Races native to the area behind the claw who have strong CT and MT credentials (Darrians, Vlazhdumecta, Florians), one migrant with similar cred (Sky Raiders), and three significant Terran/Solomani efforts (Islands, Sword Worlds, and Darrian).
I'm not sure what the accepted narrative for the Vanguard Reaches or Beyond is at this point, but the narrative in Far Frontiers' rimward state stew is fairly recent. That region has a baseline assumption of Vlazhdumecta ex-pats and old Zhodani exploration, spiced with a touch of Sky Raider and only garnished with Imperial presence much later.
Foreven is, of course, a hole that Canon cannot fill.
GURPS added more natives to the Marches; opinions on their validity vary.
So.
On the face of it, I find the idea of a significant populace of ex-pat Vilani being pushed around by Vargr raids until "rescue" by Zhodani to be a stretch. The Space Family Robinii is one thing; 40,000 in Gvurrdon another entirely.
To spinward, we do know that the Vilani, in some form, got themselves lost at least as far as the spinward edge of Deneb (Enaaka, per DGP).
We have hints that RoM-era efforts in its closing years got as far as the spinward half of Corridor (Cirque).
As grist for the mill, there are three Minor Human Races native to the area behind the claw who have strong CT and MT credentials (Darrians, Vlazhdumecta, Florians), one migrant with similar cred (Sky Raiders), and three significant Terran/Solomani efforts (Islands, Sword Worlds, and Darrian).
I'm not sure what the accepted narrative for the Vanguard Reaches or Beyond is at this point, but the narrative in Far Frontiers' rimward state stew is fairly recent. That region has a baseline assumption of Vlazhdumecta ex-pats and old Zhodani exploration, spiced with a touch of Sky Raider and only garnished with Imperial presence much later.
Foreven is, of course, a hole that Canon cannot fill.
GURPS added more natives to the Marches; opinions on their validity vary.
So.
On the face of it, I find the idea of a significant populace of ex-pat Vilani being pushed around by Vargr raids until "rescue" by Zhodani to be a stretch. The Space Family Robinii is one thing; 40,000 in Gvurrdon another entirely.
And Vanejen/Rhylanor per GDW in A:2 Twilight's Peak. In 1105, it's colonization by the Vilani is said to have taken place "... some 3500 years ago..."
Agreed, especially when we have the canonical example to trailing of the Julian Protectorate.
Nicely put.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
So roughly -2400, or about 600 years into the period of Imperial decay mentioned in Vilani and Vargr. Contact with the Vargr is about 300 years prior to the settlement of Vanejen, and contact with the Terrans has just happened. Recognized contact with the Zhodani is still two hundred years away, as they are just establishing colonies in the Marches.
In context, -2400 is also about the time the Vargr are really moving into Corridor. The Darrians are still a thousand years from contact with the Solomani.
So at the beginning of the Vilani bug-out, the Marches and Gvurrdon, and probably a lot of Deneb and Tuglikki, are empty and quiet.
Seven centuries later, as the Rule of Man is falling, the Zhodani still have not pushed their borders out to their final extent, the Darrians are still primitive, and the Sword Worlders are centuries away yet. The Marches and Gvurrdon are still pretty thinly settled, though Tuglikki and Deneb are probably seeing a lot of Vargr. We don't have a lot of indication that the RoM was pushing colony ships through Corridor, either, and a lot of that sort of thing is shutting down in -1700. The Long Night is beginning.
I'm still not seeing a lot of opportunity for a Battlestar Vilanica scenario, much less several. The elements are just too far apart.
Exactly. This is why I hesitate contributing to the wiki again.
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