Dodge & Dart? Hammer & Tongs? Shoot & Scoot?

[flykiller]

I don't really know how the bitmap's produced....

a bitmap is any image that has the extension *.bmp. you can draw them using mspaint, it comes with windows. a bit tedious but not at all difficult, especially for a game played over the internet. mspaint also deals with just about any other image type as well - *.gif is good, a gif image is much smaller than a bmp image.

About the best I could find/come up with was an Excel spreadsheet that helped be track the vectors of up to 6 craft ... If anyone's interested, I'll see if I can find it.

it's easy to write. just get the first line correct, then copy/paste as far down as you want. use it to generate the bitmap (x,y) pixel coordinates then copy the standard graphics to those locations. add the vector lines and there it is. for large fleet combat it would have to be automated (trying to learn how) but for squadron level actions it's doable by hand.

 

[Icosahedron]

just get the first line correct, then copy/paste as far down as you want. use it to generate the bitmap (x,y) pixel coordinates then copy the standard graphics to those locations. add the vector lines and there it is.

I think this is the bit that is confusing us, Flykiller.

I'm comfortable with bitmaps and spreadsheets individually, but I don't know how to create one from the other. To me, a bitmap is a Paint document and a spreadsheet is an Excel document.

How does a spreadsheet generate the bitmap coordinates?
What do you mean by standard graphics?
How do you copy them to the locations?
How do you add the vector lines?

Thanks.

 

[flykiller]

How does a spreadsheet generate the bitmap coordinates?

each ship has a location coordinate (x,y) and a vector (xvec,yvec). the location coordinate represents a location on a bitmap. these and any ship acceleration is used to drive cell equations to generate two results - the ship's new location, and the ship's new vector. the process is then repeated in the next line of the spreadsheet, for as many turns as the engagement lasts. (to be clear, the spreadsheet does not draw anything on the bitmap, I meant draw the graphic by hand using the coordinates from the spreadsheet.)

if you like I'll draw up a small sample spreadsheet and post it. there's really not much to it.

What do you mean by standard graphics?

I meant from a template graphic. the template graphic will contain the ship-locator-depictions, missile-locator-depictions, a 1-light-second ring, a 2-light-second ring, etc, that you have already drawn. the purpose of the template is to have these graphics ready-made so you don't have to draw them again each time. to build the final graphic just note where the depictions and rings go, copy them over to those points, then add whatever else is needed such as vectors, ship names, turn numbers, etc.

How do you copy them to the locations?

copy-and-paste from the template graphic to the final graphic.

How do you add the vector lines?

the way I did it, each ship has a vector expressed as (xvec,yvec). I just draw a line from the ship location to the appropriate (x,y) point, and that's the ship's vector.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Umm, exuse me...

Umm, just to get briefly on topic....as to Fleet and Squadron Actions, I have the following thoughts:

1. I generally think of 3I space combat along three lines, first the good old age of sail, World War II, and Modern Sea/Air Comabt.

2. This leads to lots of hazy int on where folks are out there compared to us, thus it can and does take weeks and months just to get the Fleets or Squadrons to even meet, lots of space out there and RL proves how wide the Seas are.

3. Now once the Navies meet in the same system, the questions raised earlier come to bear, regarding pinning the other side to something and prosecuting their forces. Now assuming there is an engagement...

4. This is where the WWII and Modern Warfare models come in handy. First even before picket engage, the individual fighter screens engage each other while fighter/attack and attack spacecraft make runs at the opposing Navy's Pickets and Tenders.

5. Once spacecraft have fixed Naval positions and made their attack/defense moves they head back to the respective Carrier Vessels for refit and rearm.

6. About here the Navies begin to close and engage with Pickets/Escorts, again missiles are exchanged and light DEW fire while Capitol Ships fire Spinal Mounts to destroy/wound whatever gets caught be the beams.

7. I figure at this point Capitol Ships move into Firing Positions on Primary and Secondary Targets and "Commence Shooting!" (Because we NEVER say 'Fire' in enclosed spaces unless there is combustion happening. We fight fires and shoot the enemy.) Meanwhile the second wave of spacecraft having refit and rearmed engage at closer distance, while picket/escorts begins SAROPS on those vessels needing it. Capitol Vessels blast each other.

8. In the end either one Navy surrenders (individual ships may already done so) either en masse or they leave the field.

9. Mostly We (speaking for My Strephon) Desire that Our Admirals and Captains fight Our Navies as Intelligently and Creatively as Possible.

10.This means that my ImpNav is more competent, but still one can't always get one wants can we?

So, that's about it for now...

Laterness.

 

[flykiller]

1. I generally think of 3I space combat along three lines, first the good old age of sail, World War II, and Modern Sea/Air Comabt.

well, those ages did what they did for specific reasons, and most of those reasons just don't exist in space combat between fusion-powered ships. taking an age-of-sail setting and swapping "space" for "ocean" creates holes in the setting that many people find distracting.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Distance.

Grrrrr. Rookies all be making that same argument...

HISTORY KIDS! Study the books, read, it is not about water equals space, it is that in the Age of Sail ships had real Captains. Captains who had to make choices based on what they last remember orders and sentiment at home being and what was really happening out there in the Empty.

The point is that many, hell, all Navies and Sea Powers in general had extremely lonng distances to go to transfer information. Most of the time taken in major sea battles of the Age of Sail was in setting up for some really nice broadsides. Once combat started it was generally over with hours, with good gunnery and sailing maybe minutes.

Which is why I did make the point, above that I use all three Eras, not just AoS, which is only valid for initial encounter or lack there of.

From there it gets to how good the CMDR TF is. If he is not terribly smart I treat him as if he's a Captain/Admiral when CVs and Naval Air were first coming on board, he'll see them mostly as Recon and Harassment. If the CO has their shit together I treat them like a modern Naval Officer and fight the whole of the Naval Units available, with fighter/attack screens, followed by pickets/escorts (anti-missle and ASW style ships, like the USS Aegis and Ticonderoga) then fighting the Capitol ships if needed.

Anyway, sorry for the snapping, it's just I do see peeps saying that the Age of Sail doesn't matter, since the Traveller canon makes the very point, it's a loooonnnnnngggg way to Capitol/Core.

 

[flykiller]

Grrrrr. Rookies all be making that same argument...

(laugh) well considering the subject matter, we're all rookies, yes?

I prefer to let the rules and setting drive the strategy and tactics, not the other way around. where they recall history, that is pleasing, but nothing more. where they best fit the new circumstances, that is interesting, and the whole point.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*looks over at flykiller*

(laugh) well considering the subject matter, we're all rookies, yes?...

*waving hand in covering motion downward* HUSH! I was trying look all cool and Edu B, thanks.

 

[Icosahedron]

(laugh) well considering the subject matter, we're all rookies, yes?

I prefer to let the rules and setting drive the strategy and tactics, not the other way around. where they recall history, that is pleasing, but nothing more. where they best fit the new circumstances, that is interesting, and the whole point.

My preference is to let the science and the setting drive the strategy, tactics and (house)rules, but yes, we're all space warfare rookies.

 

[Icosahedron]

I sort of see what you're doing now, Flykiller, I thought before that you had some 'secret weapon' that made Excel draw bitmaps...

 

[Blue Ghost]

How do you envision fleet engagements IYTU - how do you see fleets operating against each other? Mainly setting the ruleset aside for the moment (with the understanding that really, any of the rulesets have to abstract things out to be manageable.)

It seems as though there's plenty good reason for a battlefleet to stick together: a lone ship or squadron can be eaten up piecemeal by a larger concentration of ships. But what does it mean for a fleet to stick together, when they're all evading like mad?

Just looking for some viewpoints, here.

Dodge-Dart

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/dodge-dart/images/dodge-dart-1967b.jpg

 

[jawillroy]

Dodge-Dart

GOLD! We have a winner. Thank you very much for playing, folks, we have some wonderful complimentary prizes backstage for you.

 

[dccarles]

*So I've got a fair bit f the framework written already.*

OHPLEASEPLEASEPRETTYPLEASEWITHSUGARONIT

It wouldn't even have to cover the rolls, or anything... just the vector addition, and the ability to duplicate a vector (missile/sand launch) with maybe a feature to determine the range between targets - just straight vanilla book 2.

And maybe the planet templates! How cool would that be?

Right now, time is my major problem. (Me and everyone else, it seems.) If I don't get to work on it in the next week or so, I'll send you what I currently have. (It took a lot of work to get the various coordinate transformations sorted out, and there's no reason anyone else should have to do that themselves.)

--Devin

 

[jawillroy]

I don't know what I'd do with anything unfinished; I'm strictly Comp-0 over here. That being said, I'd love to see whatever you've got whenever you've got it