ThunderChilde
SOC-13
Could some kind mod put a stake in this thread already, it's gotten up, ever uglier, more times than most Zombies could hope for.
Does Mongoose Traveller leave you cold?
- Thread starter gcbright
- Start date
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I see no reason to kill this thread. It sit there for a bit, and then someone comes along and posts, "Yeah, MGT does leave me cold because...". Or, someone says, "MGT doesn't leave me cold at all, and I love, love, love it..." Then, the topic strays a bit, as threads and conversations do.
Then, it goes dormant again for a while.
Then, it starts all over.
The thread is fine.
Then, it goes dormant again for a while.
Then, it starts all over.
The thread is fine.
Could some kind mod put a stake in this thread already, it's gotten up, ever uglier, more times than most Zombies could hope for.
Thunderchilde,
Let me quote something from a fairly recent post in this thread:
Those two sentences illustrate precisely why a thread like this is vitally important and why the continued life of a thread like this is also vitally important to Mongoose's own interests.
Mongoose cannot get all the honest feedback they need on their own boards, no gaming company can, and honest feedback is the lifeblood to any company.
People will either self-censor because of where they are or the majority opinion will chill debate or a dozen other things will happen on a board owned and operated by Mongoose. Independent fora are as necessary to the gaming industry as independent media are important to a nation. You cannot speak the truth to power on a channel owned by that power.
If I were Mongoose, I would lurk on threads like this every day noting those complaints that were both thoughtful and backed by examples. Major companies routinely pay millions for consumer surveys that provide the detailed consumer opinions that are posted daily on fora like this and here you can get it for free.
Regards,
Bill
I think that my thing about MgT is that they seem to have missed an essential bit of flavor that CT had (and I agree, JG did get that bit of flavor juuuuuuust right - and I wish I'd been old enough to get it when it was out!), and I think that there's something of a misunderstanding in how to actually write for Traveller, even when trying to make it a generic sci-fi rules set. No doubt MJD did a good job with MGT:SM, but ... I'd rather have the CT Spinward Marches supplement (no, I don't have it; I was barely-a-newborn-yes-literally when it was published, and haven't seen a copy of the supplements book) first; it seems necessary for MGT:SM to be useful for me. Also, I dislike the modifications to damage and armor that they made; if they altered it, they should have increased rifle damage by 1d.
That said, they have nevertheless managed to take what they've done and make bits of it fun and usable--I like the small-ship building (less so High Guard) and most of the character generation (less so Mercenary, and to an extent HG) that I've seen.
That said, they have nevertheless managed to take what they've done and make bits of it fun and usable--I like the small-ship building (less so High Guard) and most of the character generation (less so Mercenary, and to an extent HG) that I've seen.
Are the small ship and big ship design rules compatible, and are the basic and specialized character generation systems compatible? The discrepancies between different systems is one root that I really, really do not think it would be a good idea to go back to.
Hans
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
The Character Generation basically uses
+ The main career (i.e. Merchant)
+ Three lenses (i.e. Free Trader, Large Line, Small line)
+ You than role survival, skill table, skill and lifepath events
+ Upon leaving a career there is mustering out
The basic rulesbook has a "short" event table with 12 events (2W6) for each career
The "specialised" books have more careers but use exactly the same rules. There is one minor difference that instead of rolling 2W6 on the Lifepath you get a "long" lifepath and roll D6D6 getting IIRC 36 possible events. But the number of event roles stay the same so it's "more variety among characters from the carrer"
Chargen integrates nicely between base book and supplements. Now if someone could please cross-breed it with the MegaTraveller system and it's less random elements (Brownie Points etc)
+ The main career (i.e. Merchant)
+ Three lenses (i.e. Free Trader, Large Line, Small line)
+ You than role survival, skill table, skill and lifepath events
+ Upon leaving a career there is mustering out
The basic rulesbook has a "short" event table with 12 events (2W6) for each career
The "specialised" books have more careers but use exactly the same rules. There is one minor difference that instead of rolling 2W6 on the Lifepath you get a "long" lifepath and roll D6D6 getting IIRC 36 possible events. But the number of event roles stay the same so it's "more variety among characters from the carrer"
Chargen integrates nicely between base book and supplements. Now if someone could please cross-breed it with the MegaTraveller system and it's less random elements (Brownie Points etc)
Big and small ships are compatible; I just think that they did some things wrong (i.e. capital ships begin at 3,000 tons instead of 5,000 tons or better yet 10,000; core computers seem a bit like overkill).
High Guard and Mercenary's chargen are the same thing as TMB, but IMO they again did stuff wrong (for Merc, Guerillas are less Viet Cong or Al Qaeda than hired killers, and for some reason High Guard's chargen just doesn't click for me), and Merc's ironmongery has even more of a tech discrepancy than TMB's.
Pardon the tersity of my reply but I'm going out soon.
That's good to hear.
Yeah, I think the Received Wisdom of the Imperium is that the smallest useful ship with a spinal mount is 20,000 T and that there's not much call for escorts bigger than 5,000. Though I know there are some 10,000 T escorts mentioned somewhere (in FSotSI?); it's a rule of thumb, not a law of nature.
Just what is a "capital" ship of 3000 T going to do against a 20,000 T light cruiser? And 20,000 T is a light cruiser, mind.
Hans
Commander Drax
SOC-12
yeah, but these are just exercises in semantics, I agree capitol ships should be larger, I would say at least 100,000 tons, as a 20,000 ton light cruiser would not be used to lead a fleet, but a whopping great big flagship at 750,000 tons might.
Anyway my issue with Mongoose is the fair use policy, restricting unofficial publications to Foreven Sector and their quality of presentation/artwork. Being a visual thinker, the artwork and presentation throughout Mongoose Products is exceptionally important to me. Bad Art mentally equals Bad Quality for me. Which is a shame it's like judging a book by its cover. It's shallow, I accept, but art does so much to set the tone for me, that I would enjoy the books more without the art, if it's bad art.
Also as per Whipsnades comments, lets not kill this thread just it's not popular with Mongoose fans.
Anyway my issue with Mongoose is the fair use policy, restricting unofficial publications to Foreven Sector and their quality of presentation/artwork. Being a visual thinker, the artwork and presentation throughout Mongoose Products is exceptionally important to me. Bad Art mentally equals Bad Quality for me. Which is a shame it's like judging a book by its cover. It's shallow, I accept, but art does so much to set the tone for me, that I would enjoy the books more without the art, if it's bad art.
Also as per Whipsnades comments, lets not kill this thread just it's not popular with Mongoose fans.
spinwardpirate
SOC-13
Being a Mongoose fan, I don't want it to die either. Like someone further up said, I hope they read this with attention toward ways to better improve their product.
Cmdr. Drax,
I wouldn't exactly call your judging books by the art within them "shallow". There's a link between a book's worth and its art. After all, if the publisher couldn't be bothered to take care of the art, what else in the book did they also fail to care about?
In this manner, bad art acts like a mine shaft canary. If the art is bad, it behooves you to closely examine the rest of the book. This doesn't mean that bad art automatically equates a bad book just as that dead budgie didn't always mean that noxious gases were present, but the presence of bad art can act as a warning flag.
Art - if present - is cannot escape being part of our mental equation that determines a book's worth. Like you, I'd much rather have an illo-free book than something like G:Humaniti or Mongoose's recent efforts.
G:Humaniti also illustrates (pun not intended) two important points. First, the fact that a company has published good art in the past doesn't mean it can't publish bad art in the future. Second, a book may actually be good with absolutely execrable art.
A bad piece of art not only introduces a jarring element into a book. It also takes up space that could have been used for something worthwhile.
Agreed. Let's not kill it and let's take care that it does not degrade into Mongoose bashing either.
Regards,
Bill
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Odd. I would have said that CT had no flavor at all. It was full of great stuff. But bland as a month-old saltine cracker. I think MGT has far more flavor. The Spinward Marches Supplement shows that in great amount. I have the CT supplement and it has one paragraph on every subsector. Maybe one line on a couple planets here and there. The MGT Spinward supplement has pages and pages of background info, threats, coming events, and adventure ideas.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I dunno about that. Ask many who participated in the playtest on their site. Mongoose ignored most of the feedback, and it took TBeard continually hashing out the problems with the timing die, pissing off almost the entire Traveller community in the process, to get them to listen.
The feedback was there. They just didn't listen to it.
Or, rather, they listened only that which they liked (or, in a few cases such as TBeards, were finally forced to listen to).
Had TBeard posted once and left it alone, I'd bet real money that Mongoose Traveller would, today, still include the broken timing die.
Can I nominate this post for POST OF THE YEAR?
Jame, you've definitley touched on something...something that is wrong with MGT.
That's crazy talk.
o:I can't believe you even uttered those words.
You do me honor. Therefore, you indeed must! (Ignore the small compact miniature device that's been taped to the shaven spot on your head. It's an "experimental neural communications device." Completely mundane.)
My other thing about MGT is that the tech scale is even more off than it was in CT; I have issues in the way that the first three TLs are compressed. That and the weapon damage and armor rating are fairly silly; I'd rather that they did pistols doing 3d-0 damage and rifles doing 3d+3 damage, and armor being buffed up by 3-5 points in response (and that's if they continue with it that way).
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Donkeykong
SOC-1
Musings
Maybe it was the lack of information that defined Classic Traveller and allowed the imagination to fill in the gaps as each group needed.
Maybe it still is - the universe is huge- maybe this is why we are seeing an outbreak of short term popularity of Background intense Sci fi RPG's: Starship Troopers, Serenity etc
Maybe it was the lack of information that defined Classic Traveller and allowed the imagination to fill in the gaps as each group needed.
Maybe it still is - the universe is huge- maybe this is why we are seeing an outbreak of short term popularity of Background intense Sci fi RPG's: Starship Troopers, Serenity etc
captainjack
SOC-13
Okay. Ask away.
More specifically, like quite a few posters there, we were not all on board with Ty's level of criticism of the timing die issue, or his assessment of the nature of the problem*. One can make quite a reasonable argument that those of us who wanted it retained or at least wanted it minorly modified were not listened to.
In fact, assuming you are willing to believe Matt, the deletion of the timing die rule was based on how it changed the dynamic of play, not the structured stats and arguments that Ty provided. So, I suppose, even that can be filed under "not listened to".
Me, I got quite a bit of feedback included; but unfortunately, that meant that anyone who disagreed with me (in plangen for topic), or who didn't like my approach (Aramis for one, on trade, but very politely and professionally) didn't get listened to.
So, I guess this boils down to a specific question for you, Sup4 -not a snark, just a question. Obviously you feel that not listening was a big problem with the playtest. So, I guess, without starting a shouting match, I'm curious as to how one resolves a situation like this, one where there is no real consensus, there are strong elements of personal taste throughout most of the issues, and often diametrically opposed opinions......and still make sure everyone feels listened to ?
How does one do that ?
* this isn't an invitiation to revisit this. Its over, the Mechanism is gone. But it wasn't a unanimous wave of agreement with Ty, not by a long shot. I'm sure Ty will confirm this.
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Aren't we saying the same things here? Each one of these paragraphs end with "didn't get listened to". And, that was the point being said about Mongoose's play test--that it wasn't a playtest at all. That nobody was listened to...that I think Mongoose just wanted spelling errors reported and nothing else.
That doesn't bode well for Mongoose, does it?
No prob. Not every discussion we have needs to devolve into a flame war. Ask away.
Yes. I think the playtest was a sham. I don't think they intended to actually play test the game at all.
They should have been more clear and less shady about what they were looking for. They should have said: THIS ISN'T A PLAYTEST. THIS IS THE GAME, AND OUR INTERNAL PEOPLE WILL HANDLE PLAY TESTING. WHAT WE'D LIKE YOU TO DO IS GIVE US THE GENERAL GIST OF IF YOU LIKE THE GAME OR NOT. PLEASE REPORT ANY SPELLING ERRORS YOU SPOT. BUT, KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT LOOKING FOR A MAJOR OVERHALL OF ANY OF THE SECTIONS OF THE GAME.
They needed to manage people's expectations. A "playtest" makes one feel as if he's might have a major contribution to make, when, in reality, that wasn't the case at all.
Ty's math was pretty convincing. From what I saw, the people who thought the mechanic wasn't broken were those that said, "Oh, OK, it is broken, but it doesn't bother me that much". That happens with a couple of points I brought up as well. "Yep, broken. But, don't care. It's a game."
ThunderChilde
SOC-13
I wandered into the Pit and found my own way out of that bleak wasteland. I do believe I will have blaze a path out of this thread too. I must admit that I just cannot stir up the fierce passions that possess most of the active posters in this thread. I haven't learned much from months of reading posts beyond the fact that folks are entrenched in thier opinions and will defend them to the death of time. I keep looking, hoping for some movement, a useful tidbit, even a smidgen of enlightenment, no dice.
I suppose folks need a place to vent thier frustrations that the rest of the world doesn't think like they do. Traveller is a state of mind to me, I can run it with no rules at all. It's the same way I can run a CyberPunk feel in almost any enviroment. I was a CP2010 GM and player, there from the start. I do not care for 2030, but I just can't summon up the level of bile necesary to go and bitch at a bunch of fans of 2030. It's just not in my make up, I just can't be that bitter.
Signing out,
ThunderChilde
I suppose folks need a place to vent thier frustrations that the rest of the world doesn't think like they do. Traveller is a state of mind to me, I can run it with no rules at all. It's the same way I can run a CyberPunk feel in almost any enviroment. I was a CP2010 GM and player, there from the start. I do not care for 2030, but I just can't summon up the level of bile necesary to go and bitch at a bunch of fans of 2030. It's just not in my make up, I just can't be that bitter.
Signing out,
ThunderChilde
captainjack
SOC-13
Well, only if you only read the last 3-5 words of each of those sentences.
In fact, I was suggesting that for each "they didn't listen" there was an equal "they listened". Well, sorry about that, but I can't agree, except to agree that it was pretty clearly not a playtest for you. I understand that you feel you didn't get the chance to make a contribution, and perhaps you were never given a chance; but, in all honesty, I feel that I did, and I know that others (including EDG) also feel that way. So it was there - at least to the extent that issues we raised were adressed, and given the possibility that we are all naive fanboys (me, maybe. Constantine.....? )
In all fairness, you did get bullied off the list for quite a while and rather rudely treated by several posters, although not by Mongoose personnel. So getting shouted down was probably part of the issue.
But, I had a playtest, as did many others. As I said, I playtested, analyzed and commented; both on the list ad in direct email to Gareth. I know you feel that you were ignored, and there are certainly others who have the same complaint, but it isn't all of us, by any count.
Nope, and with all due respect, you are incorrect, sir. There were several at least who loved it , and several who disagreed with the basis of Ty's analysis, and several who were quite happy with minor fixes, and at least two other math types (myself) who had rather serious doubts about the math.
Basically, my point is this : I understand your concerns about the playtest, and your gripes about how it was run, and I agree that you were personally treated rather shabbily by other board members; but I do not think you are accurate in ascribing those issues to anyone other than yourself, or those who have specifically agreed with you.
They are however valid issues about running any kind of group criticism/editing/playtest. So, back to my second question: assuming that expectations are properly addressed as you suggest, how does one deal with a playtest (as I described earlier) in such a way that everyone feels listened to, and that they had a contribution?
Sadly, the only way I've seen that people knew they were being listened to was dialoging with the author. BTRC did/does that, but that's also a slow process.
WFRP2, the Author was listening, but the corporate goons were deleting some negative feedback before he could read it, for THEY misunderstood what playtests are.
MGT, Gareth was listening (I got requests for more detail on one item, and that triggered a different approach from all other editions in that area), but they made massive changes that hadn't been put to the outer layer of playtesters. They claim to have run them by an internal group; I don't doubt it, but that group also hadn't found a number of issues that the larger group did.
The reading the dice separately is really cool... but the "Good Numbers" absolutely MUST run opposite directions to work; their design philosophy required a Roll High task system... I can see why Gareth went the way he did.
Ty was right about the math. Ty didn't look for a solution (which was readily available: TN (6+ skill + att) or less on 2d unmodified; individual dice become high-is-good when read for time and quality.
WFRP2, the Author was listening, but the corporate goons were deleting some negative feedback before he could read it, for THEY misunderstood what playtests are.
MGT, Gareth was listening (I got requests for more detail on one item, and that triggered a different approach from all other editions in that area), but they made massive changes that hadn't been put to the outer layer of playtesters. They claim to have run them by an internal group; I don't doubt it, but that group also hadn't found a number of issues that the larger group did.
The reading the dice separately is really cool... but the "Good Numbers" absolutely MUST run opposite directions to work; their design philosophy required a Roll High task system... I can see why Gareth went the way he did.
Ty was right about the math. Ty didn't look for a solution (which was readily available: TN (6+ skill + att) or less on 2d unmodified; individual dice become high-is-good when read for time and quality.
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