Dual pourpose planetary navy. An answer to low naval budget

[BardicHeart]

Why the MT sensor rules? Why not the HG rules or the TNE rules or the T4 rules or the GT rules or the T20 rules or the MGT rules?

Two reason, one McPerth said he wanted to use the MT rules when he started the thread so I was sticking to that (mostly).

Second, I happen to be working my way through all the MT rules again right now so it was good practice for me.

Sensors don't actually work the way any of the rules makes them perform. You don't bob along, safe from detection, until you hit the 500,000 km range whereupon you automatically get detected.

If I understand the MT sensor rules correctly (and I freely admit I may not so if I'm wrong please correct me), for the best sensors the max range in most cases is 500,000 km that anything can be detected. At that range you do a Sensor Ops Task check to see if they actually do detect you. I'm still getting up to speed on those rules so I arbitrarily gave a 100,000 km overlap in the sensor range to help ensure good coverage. I need to finish reading up and double check that... might need to increase that. Any input from someone more familiar with those rules and how it works out in practice is more than welcome. Please include an example with sensor ranges, task checks, DMs, etc.

How about we put three sensor platforms in geostationary orbit. That way, we'll detect inbound ships at, say, 400,000km, early enough to give the ships in orbit three hours to intercept them.

Why only three? To get the overlap in sensor coverage you'd need at least 6 to cover the planet. Even then I think there will be some "dead spots" closer to the planet orbit as well as further out (spots where the jump perimeter wouldn't be covered). Wish we had a map board where we could draw all this out, would make it so much simpler.

These are purpose-built smuggler ships with 4g acceleration, I take it?

If you were a smuggler... you wouldn't? Real world example, NASCAR racing in the US got started during prohibiton era when "boot leggers" (people making and smuggling illegal liquor) would modify cars with bigger engines and other "add ons" to make them go faster and handle better in order to outrun the "revenuers" (Treasury agents assigned track and stop the illegal liquor trade). Simple human nature, if you make your living smuggling stuff, you're naturally going to modify your ship to increase the odds... that means more speed, any "stealth" options you can get your hands on, etc.

Side point, I always wondered who built those pirate Corsairs? Who builds a ship specifically made for pirate activity? But for smugglers and most pirates my guess the ships they'd actually use would be standard ships that either had the speed and firepower they wanted, or could be modified to have them. There wouldn't be any "standard" pirate ship... so you might not know that ship is a pirate til it opens fire.

That means they need 132 minutes to get to the jump limit. Meanwhile, how close does the patrol have to get to be within weapon range? What about the patrol ship in close orbit? Is that ever going to be OUT of weapon range?

Like I said, depends on how many patrol craft there are, where they are in orbit, etc. Again, a diagram of some sort would help. If its four ships equidistance at 400,000km up then the average distance is 630,000 km or so apart. If you're in between, you're half that for 315,000km thats 91m at 4G. But then again, to really figure this out we need to actually plot an intercept course... for which we need a diagram. That is, you have a smuggler at point A (on the planet say) going to point B (say the minimum safe jump) which is 560,000 km out. The patrol craft is at point C which is 400,000 km out but 315,000km away. We need to also consider how long it takes for the patrol craft to detect and determine they need to intercept the ship. Should probably also figure out the direction of orbit and speed its orbiting at. Once we have all that sorted out, then we have to figure the optimal flight path for the patrol ship to intercept the smuggler.

Assuming the patrol craft was stationary (0 speed) in high orbit at 400,000km, they could intercept the flight path of the smuggler by just following the same orbital path and cover the 315,000 km. They should get there before the smuggler ship. This assumes (cause I haven't done the math ) that the 85,000 km difference gives the patrol ship enough time to spot the smuggler and begin moving to intercept (this does assume there are no dead spots and the sensors correctly succeed in a Sensor Ops tasks right away, that might be iffy).

I'm just working through the MT starship combat so someone else feel free to jump in with some examples of the ranges, DMs, etc. But... based on what I have read the smuggler would be in range the whole time... most of it at Far range, changing to Near and then Visual as the intercept is made (at which point I would assume that patrol ship would do its best to stay on the six of the smuggler / pirate). Given that a combat round is 20 minutes, they have 132 min to shoot out the engines (say 7 combat turns, also assuming the smuggler doesn't risk jumping early before the 100D limit)... is that enough time for our intrepid patrol boat to shoot out the engines and disable the smuggler's ship? (Seriously asking, I'm still working thru this)

To catch smugglers, possibly. To prevent pirates from catching outbound ships, you just need a ship in orbit, one halfway to the jump limit and one at the jump limit. Pirates who manage to lurk undetected at the jump limit may get lucky, if an incoming ship emerges within range. But the pirate's sensors are no better than those of the defenders (in fact, they're a lot worse, since they can't go active), so incoming ships may simply avoid getting detected. If they are detected, we have a race on, with the pirate pursuing the merchant into the jump shadow and defenders merely having to get within weapons range while the pirate has to match vectors.

Good points. If I were a pirate, I'd watch the traffic for a few weeks or months. If there is regular shipping they likely jump in and out in the same area, that's where I'd be lurking. From the "image" that we have emerging, seems the only way a pirate would have a real shot at catching a prize... they'd have to do everything they could to ensure they were at the right place at the right time. At this point, I don't think pirate attacks will be random... seems they'd have to planned.

But then, if this is such a poor world... how much shipping is there that would be worth attacking? That needs some thought. Might be more profitable to raid out laying areas of the planet. Just cause slavery is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or isn't profitable. What else might they land on planet an steal that would be worth it? Giving me more to think about.

A world with a diameter of 12,000km will have a jump limit with a circumference of 7,540,000km. Incoming ships will arrive at a narrow band covering half that distance, or 3,770,000km. With a sensor platform covering 800,000km (400,000 to the left and another 400,000 to the right), you can cover that with five platforms.

What about in depth, or are you okay with having dead spots that aren't covered? That is... if a group of satellites at 400,000km covers one "sensor band" they still won't reach all the way out to the jump perimeter. To do that we need a second "band" of them to have full coverage from jump point to planet.

Mind you, smugglers would be able to approach the planet from the other side and not get detected until they were 400,000km from the world.

Well if you wanna make it easy on them...

Good discussion

 

[shadowcat20]

For smugglers you almost need a trip wire defense. Get a bunch of old Type S scouts (Cheap) and scatter them around as patrol cutters. Say 4 marines a crew and a triple turret of lasers. You could even take out the Jump drive for more maneuver and PP. Have a couple of M6 reactionary forces scatered around at bases to back up a patrol in case of a real problem. You are close to the planet so reaction times are not horrible. The patrol craft do the daily work and you have bigger ships to deal with the problems. More bang for your buck as you do not have to have a lot of Big ships out there.

 

[Dragoner]

Looking at the posts in this thread, I think a couple of SDB's and some fighters would take care of most of a systems defense needs. As per anti-piracy, a pro-active approach seems more efficient to hunt down and destroy pirate bases or to use decoy merchants to attract the pirates and destroy their ships. This is where the Imperial Navy really comes in and ships like the Kinunir make sense and for a larger raid against a bigger base, a Ghalalk armored cruiser.

 

[BardicHeart]

Something about smuggling has been bugging me. Escaping a system seems impossible to prevent. If a ship launches from a planet or breaks orbit, can pull high Gs (and what self respecting smuggler would have a ship that couldn't?), and if they risk jumping early before the 100D limit, they can get out too fast for anyone to stop them. But, going the other way, a ship jumping in and landing on the planet has very little chance of evading detection or pursuit. Planetary atmosphere doesn't seem to intefere with sensors, so there's no practical way to "hide". MT mentions hiding underwater (assuming there is any, RefComp, p20 under Lurking Points) but unless the planet has enough water you can then travel some distance and emerge elsewhere, you're still going to be found.

This got me to thinking. Maybe we need to stop and consider how smugglers and pirates would operate. System defenses aren't designed in a vaccuum (pardon the pun), they're designed in reaction to what you're defending against. Perhaps we need to define how smugglers operate, how pirates operate. What kinds of ships do they use, what kinds of "tricks" do they pull?

If a smuggler can't evade detection, having a fast ship doesn't really help. So unless they can jam sensors well enough to evade pursuit once they hit atmo, then we need to rethink how smugglers operate. So, first question, how effectively can sensors be jammed, how effectively could a smuggler mask their ship? How prevalent would this be? How much do tech levels affect this... not everyone will have Tech 15. So if the planety is using tech 12 sensors and the smuggler has tech 13 jamming, what then, how much effect?

Shadowcat... that's what I was thinking with the pinnaces (which I think was actually Rancke's idea originally). Very cheap, couple of lasers, can carry marines for routine inspections. They're not much in a serious fight, but would create a "cheap" tripwire for a system that can't afford anything else. Another idea I had was put a missile launcher on those sensor sats, only instead of a explosive warhead its got a limpet beacon that gives a bonus for getting a sensor lock. If it managed to attach to the hull of a smuggler or pirate, could put a dent in their operations.

Dragoner... I'm starting to wonder about these pirate bases as well. Could maybe start a whole thread on just that. Where do pirates come from, where do they go. How do they operate? What are potential sources for pirates to get weapons and gear from? Is it even that hard... for example if a merc unit can legitmately buy a 800 dT merc "cruiser" plus grav tanks and other gear... how hard would it be for a "pirate" to get their hands on weapons and so forth? Are some pirates actually "merc" units gone rogue, maybe survivors of "broken" units? (If so, what effect did the Fifth Frontier War have, how much did piracy perhaps increase afterwards?)

Do pirates always come in guns blazing? Wouldn't it be easier to put some marines on a freighter as passengers, hi-jack it and have their own ship waiting nearby to come in to assist? Freighter has a small crew, 2-3 guys with guns surprise them before they can jump. While the crew is scrambling to deal with the hi-jackers, the pirate ship comes in, docks and overwhelms the crew. What are the laws regarding ships in distress... pirate ship feigns distress, responding ship docks to lend aid and surprise... a dozen pirate marines come charging through the airlock. By the time a patrol ship can reach the freighter, the freighter, its crew and the pirates have jumped out of system.

Just some thoughts I'm having. I need to sit down with the MT sensor and combat rules and game out some tests, see how effective they really are and so forth. That'll give me a clearer idea what would actually be possible. I'll post some examples when I have some results.

If anyone wants to post some examples from CT, TNE, T4, etc. might be helpful for comparisons.

 

[aramis]

A smuggler operates linke most modern smugglers...

By carrying mostly legit cargo, but some of the cargo is mislabeled and/or hidden from inspection (often both), frequently by being one of 200 identically labeled 2TEU containers on the ship. A crate of stolen cars is labeled used auto parts, and surplus parts added to disguise it from a door-open inspection. (The recent rise of container X-Ray machines is due, in part, to this kind of smuggling.) Often, the shipping company doesn't even know that it's not what it is labeled.

In Traveller, it would work the same way. It's not about sneaking past the pickets... it's about fudging past the inspectors.

 

[BardicHeart]

That's certainly one way to do it Aramis, and in a system with dense patrol coverage and sensor sat coverage, that would probably be the only viable way.

However, in other systems, such as the one described in this thread, I disagree. If our sensor sat has Interplanetary PassEMS (range 1 AU) and a Model 1 computer it turns out that you're going to need a lot more sats to have a decent chance of detecting a smuggler or pirate.

The check works out to (MT rules): Routine check (7+) +1 DM for computer, -1 DM per 25,000 km for range. Need an exceptional success to pick up smaller ships like free trader, pinnace or a corsair. Need a regular success to detect a merc cruiser or subsidized merchant (as examples).

Thus a smuggler in a free trader lifting off a planet with the nearest sat being about say 500,000km (400,000km up and say about 300,000km east or west) away would need to roll a 26+ to detect it... pretty much impossible. That sat effectivly can't detect anything (despite the range of its sensors) beyond 150,000km (needing a perfect 12 at that range). At a range of 50,000km the sat can detect the subsidized merchant on a roll of 8+, but needs a 10+ to detect the free trader. If the sat has a better computer, this can be improved, but of course the computer costs more. If the sat had a rating 8 computer (which means our sat will end up costing more than a pinnace which means its probably no longer cost effective), then it could detect a subsidized merchant at a max range of 325,000km (roll a 12+) or a free trader at 275,000km (12+). For a 8+ (after DMs) to detect the free trader the range would have to be 175,000km or less, 225,000km for the subsidized merchant.

If the satellites feed their data back to a control point (say a CIC at the downport or starport), with someone monitoring the info (the sat becomes just a remote sensor, rather than an automated sensor) then you get Sensor Ops + Edu (average say 8 to 10) in place of the computer and ranges generally get a little better. But this also means each satellite must have an operator and we have to figure this into our operating costs for our planetary defenses.

So... satellites can be helpful, but unless you spend for either more personel or better computers, then you'll have to increase the number of satellites to have coverage. Either way... that 400,000km detection range is looking overly optimistic.

This also means that a smuggler could jump into system well outside sensor range in say a free trader modified to carry a standard pinnace. Said pinnace could do a 5G burn to planet and unless they've got good sat coverage and patrols could very well go undetected. It can only move 10 dT of cargo at a time but, if its high value smuggled goods, could be worth it. Then the free trader moves in at normal speed with legit cargo. Even if the pinnace were detected, unless they can close fast enough, it could potentially move back out of sensor range (at 5Gs its hard to keep up with) and evade pursuit.

If the smuggler has a cargo ship that has better thrusters (i.e. a "Millineum Falcon" mod, high G + EMM masking) they could just take the ship itself in and still stand a good chance of avoiding detection, especially if they were cautious enough to scout the system first with one or two legit runs.

This is why I like to "run the numbers", it gives me a much clearer picture of what is and isn't possible. Feel free to check my numbers in case I missed something, if I wasn't clear on the mods or something, just ask. All of the above was done using MT rules. If someone wants to do the same numbers with CT/HG, TNE, T4, etc. that'd be cool (I've only got so much free time here).

 

[rancke]

The check works out to (MT rules): Routine check (7+) +1 DM for computer, -1 DM per 25,000 km for range. Need an exceptional success to pick up smaller ships like free trader, pinnace or a corsair. Need a regular success to detect a merc cruiser or subsidized merchant (as examples).

How many checks per what time unit?

Thus a smuggler in a free trader lifting off a planet with the nearest sat being about say 500,000km (400,000km up and say about 300,000km east or west) away would need to roll a 26+ to detect it... pretty much impossible.

The one place in the system where you can be sure to find a sensor platform (if the system has any at all) is at or above the starport. If there's only one, the planet would create a dead zone. Which is an excellent reason to suppose that System Control would really, really prefer to have at least one more. In a previous post I suggested three equidistantly placed in in geosynchronous orbit to provide a bit of redundancy. They can double as communications sattelites. Then we add the patrol ship that's on station near the world, to add an extra sensor roll. The ship, at least, gets a +3 to its sensor roll. Not quite impossible to escape detection, but definitely not odds I would care to bet on.

This also means that a smuggler could jump into system well outside sensor range in say a free trader modified to carry a standard pinnace. Said pinnace could do a 5G burn to planet and unless they've got good sat coverage and patrols could very well go undetected.

Assuming for purposes of discussion that those detection rules are realistic, the pinnace will have an excellent chance of remaining undetected. Until it approaches the planet, since good sat coverage is pretty cheap to get. Then it's practically assured of being detected.

If the smuggler has a cargo ship that has better thrusters (i.e. a "Millineum Falcon" mod, high G + EMM masking) they could just take the ship itself in and still stand a good chance of avoiding detection, especially if they were cautious enough to scout the system first with one or two legit runs.

It's not simple to mask a heat signature. You can jam active scanners, but that doesn't hide you (quite the opposite), just make it more difficult to focus on you.


Hans

 

[BardicHeart]

Just going by what the MT rules indicate Hans... what is or isn't realistic in the real world is debateable given that how many TL 14-15 400 dT starships moving at 4Gs in the real world are there?

From what you're saying, I'm inferring that you're putting those sats up at a lower orbit, 50,000 to 100,000km instead of the 400,000km previously discussed?

Regarding number of checks... this is less clear. We have the 1 per 10 sec rule from the Sensor Ops skill. Or there is starship combat which allows 1 free check per combat turn (20 min). I would tend to go with the later since if you go with one per 10 sec. that gets a) to be a LOT of check for the GM to keep up with, and b) using a huge number of checks to eventually get a successful roll through "brute force" seems to violate the spirit of the rules. I'd go with one per 20 min since that's also the time unit for the starship to move and so forth, just seems more appropriate.

Good sat coverage is cheap to get depending on what kind of sats we're talking about. How much do these sats of cost, what's on them, what are their capabilities? With a Tech 14 model 8 computer your now spending more for just the computer (23.9 MCr) than you would for an entire pinnace (21.15 MCr). These sats would need both good passive interplanetary EMS and good far orbit active EMS in order to be effective. You'd probably come out cheaper putting a half dozen pinnaces up there, with crews and get better sensor results in most cases than use those expensive computers. Or as I suggested you could make the sats basically just remote sensor platforms feeding data back to a central CIC, and then hire staff to monitor the sats... that seems the cheapest route to go (quick estimate I figure such sats would cost somewhere around 2MCr each and would have Interplanetary PassiveEMS and Far Orbit ActiveEMS sensors, then add the cost of 3 shifts of sensor crew per sat to monitor and make those checks). Another thing I like about the remote sensor option is that it also allows the possibility a smuggler or pirate could bribe a some people to "not notice" a few things which is nice for actual gaming.

None my previous example involved active EMS jamming, but then the sensors in the example were passive EMS anyway which cannot be jammed (but EMM masking mod does affect).

So far as the EMM, I'm just taking straight out of the MT rules. MT mod for a ship reduces its EML signature one level. On a merc cruise that goes from moderate to faint which means you'd need an exceptional success to pick up its signature. On a free trader or pinnace it goes from faint to none, and its so small that detecting it as an object is already difficult. However, and the rules about this didn't seem clear to me, if the ship has effectively no EML signature (due to the EMM mod reduced to None), would this not make the ship "invisible" to the PassiveEMS sensors? Seems to be implied that is the case. That would force the use of active sensors which would bring active jamming into the equation. Apparently in MT rules all a smuggler needs to do is have a strong enough jammer and they are again invisible. In which case the ship could slip right past those sats undetected (though I assume they would detect the active jamming itself, just not the source), their only worry would be a patrol craft that came within visual range (50km or less).

If there's something I missed in the errata or some rule I misinterpreted, please point it out. If I am correct, then smuggling by using stealth and speed is possible. If I missed something and the above is incorrect then we're back to hidden cargos among legit cargos being the only means of smuggling because it will be the only means left. Either way it will affect routine play which interests me very much. So if you can show my example to be in error, please do, I'd be curious to see.

 

[rancke]

Just going by what the MT rules indicate Hans... what is or isn't realistic in the real world is debateable given that how many TL 14-15 400 dT starships moving at 4Gs in the real world are there?

Well, I'm no expert, but I do know that comets and asteroids do occasionally get detected at considerably greater distances by TL 7 sensors. Different circumstances and different timescales, I know. But then, most asteroids don't move directly towards Earth and don't have a temperature of around 300 Kelvin.

From what you're saying, I'm inferring that you're putting those sats up at a lower orbit, 50,000 to 100,000km instead of the 400,000km previously discussed?

If that's geosynchronous orbit, then yes. As I've previously stated.

Regarding number of checks... this is less clear. We have the 1 per 10 sec rule from the Sensor Ops skill. Or there is starship combat which allows 1 free check per combat turn (20 min). I would tend to go with the later since if you go with one per 10 sec. that gets a) to be a LOT of check for the GM to keep up with, and b) using a huge number of checks to eventually get a successful roll through "brute force" seems to violate the spirit of the rules. I'd go with one per 20 min since that's also the time unit for the starship to move and so forth, just seems more appropriate.

The rules are supposed to help GM and players run personal events for player characters. But what we're discussing is how things would work under normal circumstances (i.e. without players around to throw dice).

Good sat coverage is cheap to get depending on what kind of sats we're talking about. How much do these sats of cost, what's on them, what are their capabilities? With a Tech 14 model 8 computer your now spending more for just the computer (23.9 MCr) than you would for an entire pinnace (21.15 MCr).

For now I'm assuming no computers for the sattelites (well, none that provide DMs).

So far as the EMM, I'm just taking straight out of the MT rules. MT mod for a ship reduces its EML signature one level. On a merc cruise that goes from moderate to faint which means you'd need an exceptional success to pick up its signature.

Yeah, that's where I'm sceptical about the whole EML signature thing. How do you reduce your heat signature? The vessel is radiating 300 Kelvin against a background of 4. You might be able to cool one side of the vessel, but only if you radiate that much hotter from the other side. And I think the equipment you need to convey heat from one side of the vessel to another would take up quite a bit of space.

So if you can show my example to be in error, please do, I'd be curious to see.

The planet is a choke point that is easy to provide with adequate sensors and that the smuggler has to approach. Even using the mechanics from MT perfectly straight, odds a very good that he'll be detected at some point.


Hans

 

[BardicHeart]

Well, I'm no expert, but I do know that comets and asteroids do occasionally get detected at considerably greater distances by TL 7 sensors. Different circumstances and different timescales, I know. But then, most asteroids don't move directly towards Earth and don't have a temperature of around 300 Kelvin.

Yeah, and its 2011, we're supposed to be Tech 9 by now and have laser guns, orbital cities, limb regeneration, etc. but we don't. Point being, its Traveller not the real world, so either play it by the rules or make up your own. Either way, the real world doesn't matter. Are there things I think are unrealistic, sure... but that doesn't help the discussion of what the rules do or don't allow.

If that's geosynchronous orbit, then yes. As I've previously stated.

Just clarifying, it helps if you state what you mean in km... no ambiguity that way.

The rules are supposed to help GM and players run personal events for player characters. But what we're discussing is how things would work under normal circumstances (i.e. without players around to throw dice).

So you're saying if there are no players to throw dice its okay to just do whatever? I don't agree with that. The rules are the "laws of the universe", they're the same whether the players are directly involved or not. Otherwise, why bother with any of this discussion, you might as well just arbitrarily rule about everything and be done with it. I don't game that way.

You clearly seem to be of the opinion that landing on the planet undetected is impossible no matter what the rules may indicate, I don't have a problem with that, except that the rules indicate otherwise. If you want to just say that as a house rule in your games EMM doesn't work or whatever, that's certainly your perogative. However, so far as discussing what MT rules do or don't allow to be possible I don't see how such house rules are helpful. The 20 min turn is standard for starship combat, which if you're trying to detect a starship with a sensor sat it seems appropriate to stick to that. If anyone has an example of a MT rule that says otherwise I'd be happy to hear of it.

For now I'm assuming no computers for the sattelites (well, none that provide DMs).

Why would you assume that? If you're building a satellite you'd need at least a basic computer to run the thing even if you aren't relying on it to identify targets. So even a model 0 comp would be needed, which would drop the cost down to about 1.5 MCr rough guesstimate.

Yeah, that's where I'm sceptical about the whole EML signature thing. How do you reduce your heat signature? The vessel is radiating 300 Kelvin against a background of 4. You might be able to cool one side of the vessel, but only if you radiate that much hotter from the other side. And I think the equipment you need to convey heat from one side of the vessel to another would take up quite a bit of space.

Where do you get the 300 Kelvin from? Its not in the rules that I've seen so seems to me your making an assumption not in evidence, I'm curious where this is coming from. Please explain.

So far as what can or can't be done at TL 14-15... who knows. They said Columbus was mad for trying to sail around the world. I'm sure the first engineer that suggested you could build a bomber that had the radar signature of a bird and a heavily reduced IR signature was probably given some odd looks... but they did it. Don't ask me how they got that IR signature down, that's above my pay grade... so is what TL 14-15 could or couldn't do.

Point is, doesn't matter what you or I think could or couldn't be done... the MT rules as written allow it, so that's the law of the MT OTU. If you don't like it, that's fine, change it in your games (your TU is just that, enjoy). But what you do in your games doesn't help much for a discussion based on the MT rules or when I'm having to explain the printed rules at a hobby shop.

The planet is a choke point that is easy to provide with adequate sensors and that the smuggler has to approach. Even using the mechanics from MT perfectly straight, odds a very good that he'll be detected at some point.

You haven't shown that. Pull out the rules and prove it. I'm not saying I couldn't have made a mistake, but so far as I understand the rules with EMM reducing the EML signature to none that avoids the PassiveEMS. With EMS Jamming strong enough to match the ActiveEMS, that eliminates that. All the planet defense will know is that somebody out there is jamming their active sensors, but not who or where they are. The smuggler lands on planet otherwise undetected. Going by the MT rules, show me otherwise.

No offense guys, but please do me the courtesy of backing up your points with the rules themselves. I'll be the first to admit that I'm human and can (and do) make mistakes. If I have and you can show me that with examples from the rules, great! I would genuinely appreciate it, that helps me learn. But, and again, no offense meant... I don't care what anyone thinks is or isn't realistic, what they do or don't like... that's immaterial to the rules. What the rules do or don't allow is all that concerns me. I don't see how debating personal opinions will achieve anything productive.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Where do you get the 300 Kelvin from? Its not in the rules that I've seen so seems to me your making an assumption not in evidence, I'm curious where this is coming from. Please explain.

300 kelvin is 26.85 celsius. a little warm, but not a bad aproximation of the room temprature of the average starship. by simple convection, the body of the ship would be that temprature, which would then warm the hull to that temprature.

thats assuming you don't need to activly cool the fusion reactor, which would likey require some form radiator panels or other higly visable thermal emision.

in short, a ship warm enough to be comfortable to be inside would be radiating heat at a steady rate.

 

[aramis]

If we go with 1 sensor roll per ship combat turn, based upon the MT sensor rules:
1 roll per 20 minutes. 1 space = 25,000,000m (25,000km).

If we put the sensors in orbit at 25,000 km... 3 at 120° apart....

Since the ship has to land at effectively 0-vector (ignoring for the moment the hideously bad non-vector movement rules for ship combat), a 6G ship taking off is 35,000km off world in 1 turn. (Used 5G presuming losing 1 to the planet for a significant chunk. It's an error, but an acknowledged one for simplicity, since I don't want to write an iterative.)

That's Planetary Range. We can get Far Orbit range AEMS at TL 10+... for Routine difficulty... and interstellar PEMS systems as well. Which gives us a Routine PassEnScan

The ship is at best 2 spaces away, so it's Routine, Computer vs Range. At TL10, we can get a model 4 computer... so there's no point in lower. That makes the opposed resolution 2d6+4-2 for 7+. Or 2d for an unmodified 5+ to detect. At TL 13+, we can add a 100kW Neutrio Sensor to drop the pass scan to simple....

Signature Strong: passive detect at TL 10-12 requires failure by 1 or success. Need 4+ on 2d. 1 sensor is 11/12 (91%), 2 overlapping is 143/144 (99.3)
At TL13+, need a 3+ with a net DM+2... automatic. (The nat 2 rule makes it only a simple failure!)

Signature Medium: TL10-12 needs 5+ as it has to make marginal (made by 0).
1 sensor is 5/6 (83%), two is 35/36 (97.2%)
TL 13+, again, 35/36% on 1 sensor, since a nat 2 autofails in MT. 1295/1296 (99.9%) with two sensors.

Signature Small: TL 10-12 needs 7+ to detect, and TL 13+ needs 3+, because the roll has to be made by 2.
TL 10-12: 1 sensor 21/36 (58%) 2 overlapping: 1071/1296 (82%)

And that's before the additional 3 models for TL 13...

Two overlapping Interstellar PassEMS sensors with a model 7 computer will pretty much autodetect anything at TL13+... And most worlds with pops over a 50,000 will be able to afford to maintain 6, not three... giving almost automatic detect at closest approach of 25,000km
It's insanely hard to sneak down on a TL13+ world that's bothering to look. And at TL 11+, they can pinpoint you on passives and meson gun you with a deep site meson A or better, if they can come up with the cash. Assuming a 10% income tax, and average Soc 6 and people making upkeep for themselves only: Cr250 * 10% * Soc=6 * 13months ... that's KCr 1.95 per person in annual tax revenue. Call it KCr2 per person adding Cr50 in various user fee profits... If we presume 10% for detect, KCr0.2 per person for detect, and just going with PEMS and Computer

Interstellar PEMS-10: MCr5, 0.56KL, 2.6MW, CP500
Model 4 computer: MCr6.4 5.5kl, 0.005MW, CP640
Stateroom x2: MCr0.8, 108kl, 0.006MW, CP0
Control panels (1200cp/30=)40 units DynLink, MCr0.02, 0.8kL,

Somewhere around MCr 15 for a unit at TL 10... meaning one per 7500 persons is maintainable, and a one time fee of Cr200 per person same pop to build a new one. So, Pops of 22k persons should be able to afford 3 of them. So, expect 3 on a pop 4. Expect at least 6, maybe even 12 on a pop 5, and at least 20 on a pop 6+...

 

[BardicHeart]

ROFLMAO :rofl:

So the argument is over whether or not 30 degree C (okay so I turned the thermostat up... I also leave lights on and the toilet seat up... sue me ) can be masked or not? In a tech 14-15 starship capable of moving through space at hundreds of thousands of KM per hour... has artificial gravity... reactionless thrusters... all powered by fusion power plant small enough to fit in said starship; and the big hang up on whether Lando the Smuggler can avoid detection by passive sensors hinges on what the thermostat is set on? Seriously?

I'm done... somebody drop me an email when this discussion returns from the Silly Zone. o:

 

[BardicHeart]

Thanks for the detail Aramis, I'll come back to it later... gotta get to work.

 

[rancke]

Yeah, and its 2011, we're supposed to be Tech 9 by now and have laser guns, orbital cities, limb regeneration, etc. but we don't. Point being, its Traveller not the real world, so either play it by the rules or make up your own. Either way, the real world doesn't matter. Are there things I think are unrealistic, sure... but that doesn't help the discussion of what the rules do or don't allow.

The real world matters on those points where the physical laws are supposed to be the same for the Traveller universe. I'm not discussing what the rules do and don't allow, because I think the rules should reflect the setting rather than the other way around. We've got eight or ten different sets of rules, all supposedly reflecting the same setting. Which in some cases means that some of the rules MUST be unrealistic or even downright wrong.

Just one example: According to the rules in The Traveller Book, Commercial or privately owned ships can detect other ships up to one-half light-second. Military or scout ships can detect other ships up to two light-seconds away. Once detected, a vessel can be kept track of by another ship up to three light-seconds away.

Which is it? Automatic detection 150,000 km away (600,000 for military-grade sensors) regardless of size of the ship, or the chances described by MT? Or TNE or T4 or GT or T20 or MGT or T5?

I don't want to have to change my system writeups every time there's a new Traveller version out. Hence my basic assumption is that rules reflect an underlying "reality" but gets simplified to make a good game. Which is fine for playing them as games, but stinks if you don't keep that in mind for doing background material.

So you're saying if there are no players to throw dice its okay to just do whatever? I don't agree with that. The rules are the "laws of the universe", they're the same whether the players are directly involved or not.

On the contrary, the rules are NOT the "laws of the universe". The Traveller Universe is every bit as complicated as the Real Universe, which is why the rules simplify some aspects when we get around to dragging out the dice and having a good time shooting up each other's starships.

Otherwise, why bother with any of this discussion, you might as well just arbitrarily rule about everything and be done with it. I don't game that way.

Oh, I'm sticking to a set of rules, all right. They're called the physical laws.

You clearly seem to be of the opinion that landing on the planet undetected is impossible no matter what the rules may indicate, I don't have a problem with that, except that the rules indicate otherwise.

The MT rules indicate otherwise, sure. The CT rules agree with me (Automatic detection at 600,000 km). I haven't checked the other rules.

If you want to just say that as a house rule in your games EMM doesn't work or whatever, that's certainly your preogative.

What I want is to be able to use any system writeup I get my hands on without worrying about which particular simplification of the laws of nature it's written for. ("Bad news, Chancellor. The laws of nature have just changed, so we need to come up with the money to buy four new sattelites to cover the new holes in our detection setup.")

However, so far as discussing what MT rules do or don't allow to be possible I don't see how such house rules are helpful. The 20 min turn is standard for starship combat, which if you're trying to detect a starship with a sensor sat it seems appropriate to stick to that. If anyone has an example of a MT rule that says otherwise I'd be happy to hear of it.

Not an MT rule. But in CT the combat turn is 1000 seconds, or 17 minutes and 40 second.

Where do you get the 300 Kelvin from? Its not in the rules that I've seen so seems to me your making an assumption not in evidence, I'm curious where this is coming from. Please explain.

It's the temperature that will keep human being alive. Well, a few degrees higher than that, actually; I just rounded up to 300. Call it 292 if you like.

So far as what can or can't be done at TL 14-15... who knows. They said Columbus was mad for trying to sail around the world. I'm sure the first engineer that suggested you could build a bomber that had the radar signature of a bird and a heavily reduced IR signature was probably given some odd looks... but they did it. Don't ask me how they got that IR signature down, that's above my pay grade... so is what TL 14-15 could or couldn't do.

Well, a subspace heat sink might do it. A "stealth field" might do it. Get Marc Miller to state that subspace heat sinks and/or stealth fields exist in the OTU and I'll accept that. Thing is, subspace heat sinks and stealth fields are not among the magic-tech devices that officially belong to the Traveller universe. And sensors are not supposed to be based on any unknown form of radiation.

Point is, doesn't matter what you or I think could or couldn't be done... the MT rules as written allow it, so that's the law of the MT OTU.

I don't believe in an MT OTU. There's an OTU. One. If there are any rules that "trumph" any other in the OTU, it's MGT (and GT -- they're still official too). From that point of view, the MT rules were superceded many years ago.

You can have an MT universe where things work exactly as stated in the MT rules, of course. But it wouldn't be the OTU, and a discussion about it wouldn't be a General Traveller discussion .

With EMS Jamming strong enough to match the ActiveEMS, that eliminates that. All the planet defense will know is that somebody out there is jamming their active sensors, but not who or where they are.

EMS jamming is equivalent to shining a bright light in asomeone's face to prevent them from focussing on you. The defenders may not be able to hit you until you come closer, but they'll know that you're there.

No offense guys, but please do me the courtesy of backing up your points with the rules themselves.

Impossible, since my basic point is that the rules don't tell the whole truth (and sometimes flat out lies, depending on what the author knew and what he wanted the rules to accomplish). The rules were designed to provide entertaining game sessions, not to facilitate world-building. So to use the rules for world-building, it's necessary to make sure they actually work for world-building.

I don't care what anyone thinks is or isn't realistic, what they do or don't like... that's immaterial to the rules. What the rules do or don't allow is all that concerns me. I don't see how debating personal opinions will achieve anything productive.

I don't think of the laws of nature as personal opinions. (Except those that are different for the Traveller universe, of course, like jump physics and thrusters).


Hans

 

[rancke]

So the argument is over whether or not 30 degree C (okay so I turned the thermostat up... I also leave lights on and the toilet seat up... sue me ) can be masked or not? In a tech 14-15 starship capable of moving through space at hundreds of thousands of KM per hour... has artificial gravity... reactionless thrusters... all powered by fusion power plant small enough to fit in said starship; and the big hang up on whether Lando the Smuggler can avoid detection by passive sensors hinges on what the thermostat is set on? Seriously?

Seriously. Thrusters and artificial gravity are official departures from the physical laws of the Real Universe. Sensors, OTOH, are supposedly based on detecting radiation the same way we do it in our universe. I don't know if the original author forgot that heat is radiation too and just stuck to electric emissions. I suspect he did, because I don't know what he was thinking if he seriously thought that he could mask heat emissions.

Or perhaps he just thought that ignoring it would make for better gaming.


Hans

 

[Maccat]

Offhand, I think their budget would be used for:

the highport ship/base, say a few kt maneuver only ship with low g, dual PP and maneuver for shipping the drives out to an industrial world for refit. unstreamlined, has maintenance/mfg bay for say 400t of ships, docks for a few scouts/xboats, and a few lifeboat/gigs (armed), maybe a slow boat. buncha cargo space! lightly armored. Weaponry a few turrets, say 3 of 10 hardpoints with dual sand/PL. Some 100t bays, though probably used for cargo or small ship docks instead of equipped.

2x 95t shuttles, armed, for planetary cargo service

a 400 dt fuel shuttle for trips to the GG and back, with purification. also used for SDB resullpy runs

2 SDBs, one on planet in a sea, one in the gas giant, maybe 1 per GG if more, i in maintenance/at port.

*maybe* fighters. like 2, cause they look cool parked on the tarmac, and the technocrats son likes to fly. and no top of the line /fib 8 things either. probably just 20t gigs painted pretty.

anything left over would go to a subsidized merchant...
... and a fantastic nobles yacht(s) for the planetary technocrat nobility "diplomatic missions"

for small pop worlds i tend to imagine triple turret ATVs with a fire coordination (computer) vehicle, say 6x triple missile firing as one battery for the city/cities AA defense. definitely no nucclear dampers or meson screens, no planetary spinal mounts.

to get fancy since they're TL F and a technocracy, one of the bays on the highport station/ship could be a meson bay (!)

 

[rancke]

a 400 dt fuel shuttle for trips to the GG and back, with purification. also used for SDB resullpy runs.

Since the world has a hydrosphere, hydrogen would come from its oceans, not the gas giants. Much easier.


Hans

 

[Maccat]

it's also to act a tender for the outsystem SDBs (it carries nuclear missiles!), resupply/crew transfer vehicle, and as fuel shuttle for that pricey refined fuel of a class A starport to unstreamlined vessels. Rumors that they use it to smuggle in rum are entirely unsubstantiated <s>. Might be useable as a stranded free trader rescue/salvage vessel as well. Aspect of being to have a 400t ship hangar kn the station/ship for visiting free traders this way, alternates as refeit/repair/construction bay, ymmv.

idea is capacity for the station/ship (unstreamlined) to have it's own refuelling capability for HG/TCS campaign refuelling percentage requirementi. has lots of adventure potentials/hooks as well, which i like. That it can carry a squad of power armor marines that can jump and board a vessel is um, irrelevant... They also sell jump tapes for authorized departure destinations, 10k CBills/Jn, cheap!

then again maybe just one of the "regular" 95t shuttles shoehorned into that duty. Pricewise usually a 100t scout without the jump drive works lots better, even with the loss of JDrive tonnage in engineering. So maybe 2x jumpless scouts, 2xXboat docks are all.

lastly maybe it is the "tug" of the station/ship itself, which only orbits...

this also is an insystem ship, usually travelling the system on various duties, the systems only spaceship, really, might as well have it be more than a prospectors buggy or seeker <s>