• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Duelling in the Third Imperium

welsh

SOC-12
Discussion of the foil in another thread leads me to ask ... what do people think of duelling in the Third Imperium?

By which I mean, one world may ban duelling, and another may have a duelling tradition, but what is the Imperial culture? Do nobles duel? Given the culture of honor, I suggest they do ... which leads to the next question: what is their Code Duello?
 
Discussion of the foil in another thread leads me to ask ... what do people think of duelling in the Third Imperium?

By which I mean, one world may ban duelling, and another may have a duelling tradition, but what is the Imperial culture? Do nobles duel? Given the culture of honor, I suggest they do ... which leads to the next question: what is their Code Duello?

I doubt very much that the Imperium would tolerate dueling, especially with respect to the upper nobility. Would you as Emperor want to have a sector duke taken out by a lucky shot or hit in a duel? When it might take you 6 months to find out about it and another six months to get a replacement in place?
 
I expect that there is a duelling culture, but it's "officially" frowned upon.

And quietly ignored in the IN and IMC so long as both parties show up fit for duty the next day.
 
It also depends on what weapons they use.

If it's firearms, you could use a non-lethal round but have it leave a nasty welt/burn bruise that goes away after a few days, so everyone 'in the know' knows who lost.

Waving swords/rapiers around is tricky unless the duelling sword is blunted (an even then its dangerous). Hook up an electric shocker to the blade, to a solid 'hit' stuns the target so again you know who lost.

For higher tech worlds - duelling would not have to be physical. Hook the combatants up to a VR sim or Holo-simulation and they could duel with whatever they wanted - battlemechs, laser swords, martial arts, magic spells, etc in whatever environment they wanted. The role of the 'seconds' in this case is to ensure the sim is not rigged.

This could even be a broadcast 'sport' - two antagonist nobles duel it out on the planet of swamp monsters while the other nobles watch, ensuring the result is honoured.
 
I've always thought there is a code duello among at least the nobility, which is why nobles are allowed to carry their ceremonial magnum revolvers.
 
I expect that there is a duelling culture, but it's "officially" frowned upon.

And quietly ignored in the IN and IMC so long as both parties show up fit for duty the next day.

And of course individual worlds/systems might allow it.
 
In his novel "Shadow of the Storm" MJD goes a bit into the very-much-a-thing dueling culture of the Solomani Navy. Interesting stuff. The main character is maneuvered into a duel he cannot refuse by a fellow officer.
 
There is a snippet in the MGT Deneb book that backs up the idea that the Solomani descended nobles were still dueling at some level around the Civil War period. Whether the practice survived the cultural shift toward the Vilani after the Civil War period is an open question.
 
I've always allowed it, and in some other cultures and races even made it a pretty common practice. But, it is limited to hand to hand and edged weapons like swords.

The usual practice is "first blood." That is once you score a hit and do it first, the duel is over and honor satisfied be it a punch to the nose or running someone through with a sword.

Using a firearm or other weapon beyond your fist or a blade is considered cowardly and insulting. It's poor form.

I figure legal duels require medical staff present and the loser is quickly patched up or stabilized, after all we're talking magnitudes better medical care than in say the 18th Century.

It gives a good reason within the game to have at least minimal sword skills and have one in your inventory.
 
In his novel "Shadow of the Storm" MJD ...


That's a great book. Unlike all the dreck that came before, Shadow of the Storm and AotI are two novels which didn't insult Traveller.

Regarding dueling in the Imperium at the "imperial" or "noble" level, there are several cultural regions any one of which may have a dueling tradition. When it exists, dueling in the armed forces, ministries, and the like is probably handled much like it was in the 18th and 19th Centuries; officially frowned upon, quietly ignored if not taken too far, and encumbered with a host of socially enforced customs.

Dueling isn't that far removed from us. French politicians routinely dueled up until the First World War. Even Clemenceau was involved in a few. Dueling societies also used to be a part of several central European universities.

In canon, Towers/Aramis is said the have a dueling culture about which casual visitors need to be warned.

IMTU, "first blood" dueling is a spectator sport on Grote/Glisten.
 
Wasn't there an entry for dueling pistols in the Emperor's Armory with a bit of fluff?

I have a couple of versions IMTU, a couple of which are taken from the Honor-verse.

My version of the Sword Worlds is also dominated by dueling societies that provide a whole secondary military force of semi-psychic swordmasters and bladesmen (kind of Dune-esque in some ways I suppose). One scenario revolved around the fact that the group couldn't get help from the Sworld Worlds Navy (because they couldn't intervene due to treaty restrictions) but the captain turned around and did intervene by shifting the colors of the entire ship over to the dueling society that they all belonged to...

"I must apologize that as a officer of the Sword Worlds Navy I cannot intercede" trans[onder codes start emitting different data "But as a Grandmaster of the Black Mountain Society it would be my honor to render aid: Battle Stations! There is no dishonor in a death today!"

D.
 
Would you as Emperor want to have a sector duke taken out by a lucky shot or hit in a duel?

In duelling cultures, one typically duels only with one's social peers, so it would be most common among the more junior levels of the nobility -- where there is also a greater need to establish one's honour.

OTOH the US is an example of a nation in which duelling occupied even the most senior members of government, in the early 19th century.

... quietly ignored in the IN and IMC so long as both parties show up fit for duty the next day.

Interesting duelling factoid: in the early 19th century, the US navy lost more junior officers to duels than to enemy action.

If it's firearms, you could use a non-lethal round ....

Possibly the Imperium could have a modernized duelling culture in which non-lethal weapons took over, but this detracts from the very point of the duel, which is to establish your honour via your willingness to die over a point of honour. Welts don't cut it. :)

The usual practice is "first blood." That is once you score a hit and do it first, the duel is over and honor satisfied be it a punch to the nose or running someone through with a sword.

First blood is the usual practice. In fact, the reason I thought of this is that a foil is unlikely to inflict a lethal blow. This lets you risk your life over a point of honour without actually taking too much risk.

I have a hypothesis that the decline in duelling in the US beginning in the mid 19th century may have been partly a result of the Colt revolver. Smoothbore duelling pistols are woefully inaccurate; rifled revolvers much less so. Too risky. :)

Meanwhile, in Europe, the duelling tradition continued. One of the salient features of the European duelling culture was that it remained a fencing culture. And in the French tradition, a gentleman could decline to duel with cavalry sabres without loss of honour -- again, too risky.

BTW, as far as first blood goes ... fists were out. To strike a gentleman with your hand was the ultimate insult against honour. To suffer such a blow without challenging the offender to duel was at one time unthinkable.

Imperial traditions may vary, of course. :)

Dueling isn't that far removed from us. French politicians routinely dueled up until the First World War.

The duelling tradition was very strong in the US, especially in the south, before the Civil War. The oath of office for Kentucky's governorship still requires the governor to swear that he has never involved himself in a duel.
 
One thing the french dueling foils did that the Traveller Foil only does in MT is kill someone outright with a well placed thrust...

Keep in mind - a dueling foil had a 1:1 to 1:3 cross section, and a sharp point... and could be square, diamond, triangle, or V-shaped cross sections... they will penetrate the arms or thighs easily. A hit to the femoral or brachial, or to the jugular or carotid, or a penetrating thrust to the chest, could all be lethal in seconds...
 
Possibly the Imperium could have a modernized duelling culture in which non-lethal weapons took over, but this detracts from the very point of the duel, which is to establish your honour via your willingness to die over a point of honour. Welts don't cut it. :)
Possibly, though the social stigma would hurt a lot longer.

The other thing to remember is that _real_ duels were not the *tinkle tinkle* of blades as the duelists shuffled back and forth as seen on TV. They were a lot more nasty. Kicks, face slams, headbuts, thrown gravel, backstabs, etc were all fair game. And thats not even counting street duels.

Though on the other hand - most deaths were not immediatly fatal. Blood loss was a biggie with collapsed lungs (from piercing) close behind. So as long as the wound isn't immediately fatal, high tech medicine should be able to patch them up fairly easily.

Some interesting info here
 
In the article Military Academy (challenge 26, page 38) it is explicity told that the in planet where the Academies are (Beauville) dueling is legal and regulated, and that duels are not an uncommon practice.

It also makes explicit that Academies' membres are forbiden to participate in any duel, and that it is a good way to be punished if you're caught on one.
 
I do not see the Imperial nobility as a warrior caste, rather a ruling caste, hence duelling does not fit.

I see it as more likely that naval officers, or marine officers, duel.

Since marines still train with the cutlass, I have always included a ceremonial sword in the dress uniforms of the Imperial Navy and Marines.


On the other hand MgT2 has a duel event for Nobles
You are challenged to a duel for your honour and standing. If you refuse, reduce your SOC by 1. If you accept, roll Melee (blade) 8+. If you succeed, gain one SOC. If you fail, roll on the Injury Table and reduce your SOC by one. Either
way, gain one level in Melee (blade), Leadership, Tactics (any) or Deception.
 
I do not see the Imperial nobility as a warrior caste, rather a ruling caste, hence duelling does not fit.

Duelling is not related to a "warrior caste," but to a culture of honour. All kinds of non-military people have been involved in duels. Fencing and shooting were not historically skills reserved to the military.

It's that culture of honour -- explicitly referred to in even the earliest references to Imperial feudalism -- that leads me to speculate this is a duelling culture. Anywhere a culture of honour exists, disputes tend to be settled by violence (see Pinker, The Better Angels of Our Nature).
 
That's a great book. Unlike all the dreck that came before, Shadow of the Storm and AotI are two novels which didn't insult Traveller.

Eh. The first two TNE books and Swycaffer's "inspired" books are at least reasonable, though hardly exceptional (with one or two exceptions in both directions). The T4 book was painful, though.

I'll take the "close enough" of Robert Frezza and C.R.Faust in most cases.
 
.... Robert Frezza...

A Small Colonial War was good. I've never been able to find the two sequels sadly.

The book definitely has a late 80s feel to it. World War III knocks off the US, USSR, Europe, and (maybe?) China leaving the field clear for a reborn Japanese empire. FTL travel is relatively slow with a huge time dilation component. A few subjective weeks for the traveler is decades for the people left behind. Serve in the merchant marine, navy, and army or sign up as a colonist has you're basically an exile. The passage of time means you can't "go home" again.
 
Back
Top