Duelling in the Third Imperium

[Condottiere]

It's the reason you can never call out the King, or the King will never personally handle an affair of honour, but appoints a Champion to do so on his behalf.

James White's Sector General series has humans and aliens deal with disputes this way, under a number of handicaps and limitations of weaponry permitted, that are cunningly concepted to force both sides to come to the conclusion that open violence is futile.

Of course, some guy does a Kobayashi Maru, and forces a direct intervention by the interstellar authorities.

 

[Whipsnade]

... appoints a Champion to do so on his behalf.

That's an important point.

There's a noble professional "duellist" mentioned in GT working on the Solomani Rim. IIRC, he's either in RoF or a SJGames' JTAS article. A political struggle at the Imperial level between the Exile and Resistance houses of nobility is keeping him employed.

As a noble himself, he easily able to move in the same circles as his targets. His employer sends him to wherever the target is working/living, he socializes for a while, and eventually is able to create a plausible reason for a duel. His combat skills then almost guarantee that his target will lose and/or be killed. Either way, the target's influence and political standing are lessened.

 

[pendragonman]

I meant about duels and the nobility as a warrior caste.

The Duke or Regina's Own were formed by the acting head of government in the Marches about when Arbellatra rebelled and departed with the Marches fleet. That says nothing about nobles in general?

You asked for a canon source, claiming that there were none. I gave you a counterexample.

If the nobility does not contain a warrior caste, please explain the various rebellions. Explain The emperors of the Flag (nobles as well as Admirals). Further, the 4518th is not the only unit raised by a noble.

Is the entire nobility part of a warrior caste? Not likely. Is there a subgroup of nobles that are one? Considering that often military career characters often end up as nobles, this is highly likely.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You asked for a canon source, claiming that there were none. I gave you a counterexample.

I think we misunderstand each other. I asked for a canon about duels.

I do not understand what the Huscarles says about duels or warrior castes?

If the nobility does not contain a warrior caste, please explain the various rebellions. Explain The emperors of the Flag (nobles as well as Admirals). Further, the 4518th is not the only unit raised by a noble.

A warrior is the guy wielding the sword.

A general or political leader can start a rebellion or administrate forming a military unit without being a warrior.

Is the entire nobility part of a warrior caste? Not likely. Is there a subgroup of nobles that are one? Considering that often military career characters often end up as nobles, this is highly likely.

Again, we have no canon? The military careers can lead to an increase in Soc, but the Noble career contains Administrators and Diplomats.

 

[whulorigan]

T4 Core Rules, p.33 (CharGen):

NOBLE
A noble can be described as an individual who is a member of the upper class in society. Nobles, for the most part, perform few consistent functions throughout their lives. Nobles most often have large amounts of ready money to spend, and they may possess useful influence in high places.

The biggest danger a noble faces is sword duels. Thus, nobles spend a good amount of time honing their fencing skill. (Not every character of noble Social Standing follows this career. Regardless of their career, however, they still hold their noble rank.)

Routine Tasks: Elite social events and diplomatic functions, equestrian training, fencing practice, political maneuvering, blade duels, proper education, fortunes.

T4 Core Rules, p.42 (Skills):

Fencing (Dex or Soc)
The expertise in attacking and defending with fencing weapons (foil, saber, and epee). Fencing is as much a matter of honor as a sport to the nobility, and a fencing duel is often as colorful as it is deadly, mixing clever repartee with elegant thrusts, parries, and ripostes of the blades. It is commonly said that the best way to gain a noble's respect is with a rapier.

Chapter 5 provides the special rules for fencing in combat. This skill is normally based on Dex, although Soc is often a substitute, especially in duels designed more for show than for blood.

T4 Core Rules, p.74 (Combat Equipment):

Pistol, Magnum Revolver
Among nobles who fancy themselves leaders of men rather than merchant princes, this is the commonly accepted dress sidearm. Not that it isn't an effective weapon, but it is a throwback to an earlier era of weapon design. To compensate for its lack of electronics, low rate of fire, and small magazine capacity, the gun is usually manufactured to precise tolerances from the best materials, making it very accurate and usually custom balanced for the buyer.

Ammunition is not standardized as for official Imperium weapons, and may be subject to local availability. The large bore allows a wide variation of custom loads, and individuals take advantage of this as befits their temperament and style.

A magnum revolver is a TL7 pistol costing Cr450 and weighing 1.5 kg. It is a single-fire weapon with a ground combat range of Short and a damage rating of 10. The weapon holds 6 rounds of ammunition.

GT:Nobles, p. 50:

DUELING
Duels are a means of settling disputes by force of arms. The custom of dueling grew out of the practice of trial by combat (the judicial duel) on old Terra, and similar traditions on other worlds. The practice is not limited to the nobility, but they are the most common practitioners.

Dueling is forbidden by Imperial military regulations, but this applies only to serving members of the Imperial military. Dueling is not against Imperial law in and of itself, although it can be treated as a criminal offense in a number of ways if the relevant officials wish to – duelists can be charged with assault, attempted murder, and so on. In practice, duels are ignored by Imperial law enforcement, provided no one is killed or seriously injured. Local laws vary considerably on the subject, but many governments frown upon dueling.

High nobles are discouraged from engaging in duels, although many have come from cultures that retain the custom. For many years the Imperial family has done everything it can to discourage dueling – Emperor Paulo III and his son Emperor Strephon have both been opposed to the custom. Still, it is difficult to change so many traditions on so many worlds.
...

(NOTE: There is more concerning "Codes Duello", but I would be quoting too much)

 

[welsh]

It's the reason you can never call out the King, or the King will never personally handle an affair of honour, but appoints a Champion to do so on his behalf.

One reason that you can't call out the King is that duels are matters between social equals. Call out someone far above your station, and he can decline without loss of face, compounding the insult.

Another is that, depending on the law, offering violence to the monarch may be considered treason.

 

[welsh]

GT:Nobles, p. 50:

I do find the GT stuff endearing. So cute that they think "assault" will be a crime under the same Imperial law that allows mercenaries to kill citizens for profit.

 

[kilemall]

One reason that you can't call out the King is that duels are matters between social equals. Call out someone far above your station, and he can decline without loss of face, compounding the insult.

Another is that, depending on the law, offering violence to the monarch may be considered treason.

Whut wait-

the Emperor dueling in the movie Gladiator may not have been legit?

o::devil:

 

[pendragonman]

A warrior is the guy wielding the sword.

Really? You find that a defensible argument? There are no modern warriors without the use of swords?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A warrior is the guy wielding the sword.

Really? You find that a defensible argument? There are no modern warriors without the use of swords?

I think you understand what I mean.

The guy wielding a sword, bow, assault rifle, or FMGP is a warrior.
The guy wielding a swagger stick and a logistical plan is not a warrior.
For clarity, a leader can be a warrior, but don't have to be.

 

[Jonendsn]

I imagine that dueling would be very much a pursuit of the young upstarts jockeying for title and privilege. The higher one manages to rise in the social ranks, the more likely one is to have seen through the herd-thinning aspect of the dueling culture and therefore to have found ways to circumvent it. Hence one's elevated position...and very survival.

Wars, as a tangential but not completely unrelated point, are fought by gullible young men somehow convinced that the obsessions of cunning old men are worth dying for.

It's interesting what young men of little mark will consider to be a worthy cause for sacrificing their lives. (Being of a bit of a Freudian bent, I imagine it all comes back to sex, in the final analysis. :rofl: )

 

[Condottiere]

Warfighter.

Leaders are now managers.

 

[Spartan159]

Warfighter.

Leaders are now managers.

Quality control may be lacking, YMMV. :smirk:

 

[Jonendsn]

Warfighter.

Leaders are now managers.

Yeah. Nah.

The world is knee-deep in managers.

Leaders are far fewer and further between.

 

[pendragonman]

I think you understand what I mean.

The guy wielding a sword, bow, assault rifle, or FMGP is a warrior.
The guy wielding a swagger stick and a logistical plan is not a warrior.
For clarity, a leader can be a warrior, but don't have to be.

If you actually read my comment, I clearly misunderstood your loose use of the language. Your previous statements seemed to me to be read as written types of commentary. Then you switch to hyperbole when it suits.

Further evidence of my confusion should have been clear from my post about the 4518th. You seemed to me to be asserting that there were no canon sources of nobles raising troops.

And you seem to be continuing to assert there is no canon evidence after what was posted from T4. Or is it the case that since it doesn't support your assertion that you are ignoring T4?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you actually read my comment, I clearly misunderstood your loose use of the language. Your previous statements seemed to me to be read as written types of commentary. Then you switch to hyperbole when it suits.

Further evidence of my confusion should have been clear from my post about the 4518th. You seemed to me to be asserting that there were no canon sources of nobles raising troops.

Then we both misunderstood each other. I hope that is cleared up.

And you seem to be continuing to assert there is no canon evidence after what was posted from T4. Or is it the case that since it doesn't support your assertion that you are ignoring T4?

I think you will find that the last time I questioned the canon was the post before whulorigan presented canon from GURPS and T4.

Thanks, whulorigan.

 

[whulorigan]

Thanks, whulorigan.

You're welcome.

There is also a reference somewhere about an area in the Moot Spire on Capital set aside for duels (at least in Milieu:0, IIRC), but I didn't manage to locate it.

 

[Whipsnade]

I finally found the professional duelist in GTI mentioned earlier. As usual, I remembered something right, remembered somethings wrong, and was confused about even more.

He's Sir Mutava Tubari. Originally from Eleusis, he was on the fast track with a brilliant naval career. He'd made captain at 34, had been knighted, and was assigned as a naval aide to the Duke of Concord when it all came apart. He was stupid enough to become "romantically involved" with the Duke's oldest daughter.

The Duke's reaction was just what you'd figured it would be.

Tubari was quickly reassigned to shore duty in some backwater system effectively ending his career. He resigned his commission and since has traveled the Rim causing trouble for the Imperial aristocracy wherever and however he can.

He's become a blackmailer and a duelist. He discovers whatever misdeeds he can and then either extorts money or ruins reputations. A crack shot and expert fencer, he hasn't lost a duel yet and has even killed three minor nobles. Making things even more interesting, Tubari has a secret ally among the sector's Imperial nobility.

This secret patron provides Sir Mutava with information about prospective targets, money, and even legal assistance.

The most interesting bit of information regarding Sir Mutava Tubair is perhaps this:

Similar characters can be found anywhere in the Imperium. so with suitable changes in his biography he can be useful in campaigns set elsewhere.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

their is a similar character in the Honour Harrington series, a ex marine valled Denver Summervale , who was dishonourably discharged who now acts as a duellist for hire/assassin. he is really good at pushing peoples buttons enough that the other party ends up offering the insult required

 

[Condottiere]

Traditionally, the challenged party gets to choose the weapon, which is where you can get the possibility of some hilarious but non lethal choices, thought custom limits it to firearms or swords.

The point about pistols is that they're supposed to be equalizers, since you can't use greater strength to win, as with fisticuffs or even blades.

While everyone could challenge or accept, in practice it depended on the social standing of either party, their age, and whether their perceived experience and skill were considered adequate.