Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Thank You Aramis.
That explanes it i dont have TNE.
Bye
That explanes it i dont have TNE.
Bye
Dynamics of system defense and other thoughts
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
Jump Flash is also in some of the earlier Traveller stuff including STARSHIP OWNERS MANUAL. I seem to recall that there was evidence of a jump flash given elsewhere as well. If a ship gives off light of any kind when entering or emerging from jump space, that is an electromagnetic spectrum event that a sensor should be able to detect. I'm not sure how TNE handles sensing jump flash, but I know that GURPS TRAVELLER has rules for it.
Someone on the SJ Games Free Forums Traveller section asked about low-population system defense. Now, the question was specifically about a system that Mora shipped a 50K ton monitor to, but my own answer is generalized for any low-population system:
I would imagine that low-pop worlds as a general thing would need maybe four Dragon-equivalent SDBs and a couple squads of fighters, and a few customs cutters (30, 40 or 50 tons displacement; also port-dependent). These would be primarily for customs and piracy denial.
A 50k ton monitor would not only be unsupportable, it'd also be ineffective - it only covers one area of space.
I would imagine that low-pop worlds as a general thing would need maybe four Dragon-equivalent SDBs and a couple squads of fighters, and a few customs cutters (30, 40 or 50 tons displacement; also port-dependent). These would be primarily for customs and piracy denial.
A 50k ton monitor would not only be unsupportable, it'd also be ineffective - it only covers one area of space.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello Jame.
Everything is so subjective, how much money does the system generate for the Government.
The system may be the only site with Handwavium so it is the most heavely defended system in the Imperium.
Or it may be a Tl1 system with 5 Anthropologists and they where told to hide if attacked.
If there is only one object worth holding then a monitor works, if there are multipul targets then a monitor is worse than a waist of time.
Money and the Willingness to defend a point are what counts.
Money to buy and pay for the troops and equipment to imposs your will.
Willingness both military and political to loose other targets because no military ever has enough to cover all possible targets.
That's why democracys always get the crap blown out of them at the start of a war (That would be small d democracies (not the ones with Democratic in the name, strange how they need to tell people they are a democracy, you would think it would be obvious to the citizens ???)).
If governments give (the people) the choise of guns or butter the people will 99% of the time pick Circuses, and then bitch when the government dosn't defend them.
SORRY.
getts down of soapbox folds it up and slinks away into the dark.
BYE
Everything is so subjective, how much money does the system generate for the Government.
The system may be the only site with Handwavium so it is the most heavely defended system in the Imperium.
Or it may be a Tl1 system with 5 Anthropologists and they where told to hide if attacked.
If there is only one object worth holding then a monitor works, if there are multipul targets then a monitor is worse than a waist of time.
Money and the Willingness to defend a point are what counts.
Money to buy and pay for the troops and equipment to imposs your will.
Willingness both military and political to loose other targets because no military ever has enough to cover all possible targets.
That's why democracys always get the crap blown out of them at the start of a war (That would be small d democracies (not the ones with Democratic in the name, strange how they need to tell people they are a democracy, you would think it would be obvious to the citizens ???)).
If governments give (the people) the choise of guns or butter the people will 99% of the time pick Circuses, and then bitch when the government dosn't defend them.
SORRY.
getts down of soapbox folds it up and slinks away into the dark.
BYE
shadowdragon
SOC-12
Guided Missile
Tech Level: 15
EP Output: 278.00 (88.79 excess)
(Advanced battery backup: 240 EP/hours)
Agility: 5
Initiative: +5
Size: Huge
Streamlined?: Yes
AC: 13 (Size Huge) -2
Drive Train: Grav
AR: 0
SI: 55
Cargo Space: 571.1
Fuel: 166.8
Range: 26400
Speeds:
Std. Acceleration= 400kph
Max. Acceleration= 2000kph
Very Slow (Stall)= 400kph
Slow= 1000kph
Cruising= 2000kph
Fast= 3000kph
Max Speed= 4000kph
Visual:
3 video camera(s) (4km range)
1 Holographic camera(s) (4km range)
Sensors: (Long range)
Radar
Neutrino
Neural Activity
Comm: (long range)
2-Way Radio
Cost: 27,999,336.00
Add a 500 vl nuclear warhead and we have one heck of a deterrant.
just a thought, prolly not feasable.
Tech Level: 15
EP Output: 278.00 (88.79 excess)
(Advanced battery backup: 240 EP/hours)
Agility: 5
Initiative: +5
Size: Huge
Streamlined?: Yes
AC: 13 (Size Huge) -2
Drive Train: Grav
AR: 0
SI: 55
Cargo Space: 571.1
Fuel: 166.8
Range: 26400
Speeds:
Std. Acceleration= 400kph
Max. Acceleration= 2000kph
Very Slow (Stall)= 400kph
Slow= 1000kph
Cruising= 2000kph
Fast= 3000kph
Max Speed= 4000kph
Visual:
3 video camera(s) (4km range)
1 Holographic camera(s) (4km range)
Sensors: (Long range)
Radar
Neutrino
Neural Activity
Comm: (long range)
2-Way Radio
Cost: 27,999,336.00
Add a 500 vl nuclear warhead and we have one heck of a deterrant.
just a thought, prolly not feasable.
RandyT0001
SOC-13
What is that, about 5-10 dtons in size? Costs about as much as a type S scout and it doesn't even include the cost of the warhead. Two-way radio communications are easy to jam, would be (slightly) better with laser or maser communications.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Then convey to David Smart my thanks! His answers to certain planetary defenses (deep site mesons, Nuke dampers, and meson screen batteries) and other defenses I intend to borrow for explaining how a certain Lucanic Viral fleet meets a high attritional doom in several locations.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
[EDITED for CREDULITY--Thanks Bill! ]
Robject:
Case exercise for you (in light of my above post), and say your friend David Smart:
Three High population worlds as examples:
Planet A: C686948-C N Hi An 623 (Formerly B686973-F N Hi An Cp 723 M1V)
Planet B: CA89A58-C Hi 730 (Formerly
AA89A44-G Hi A730 G0 V).
Planet C: E667A98-8 Hi D:1 802 (Formerly E667A74-9 Hi 702 G2 V M7 D )
Given a single pre-rebellion sized TL-15+ Imperial Fleet (presumes 1000 Total ships, with this a mix of support and close escort vessels)with the purpose of Strike (or Raid), & Destroy (No prisoners taken) worlds it deems disloyal in its path.
The planet's are arranged in the order they are encountered (first to last)by this Imperial-era sized fleet.
Fixed to the first planet (A) is a fleet of nearly 200 former Imperial, and former Solomani vessels (75 Capital ships, 125 smaller combatants), & all but 1/3 of these vessels are jump capable. Any former TL-15 defenses it has recovered/ replaced in the past 32 years or could maintain at TL-12, are present.
Planet (A) has pickets posted and they bring word of the enemy's impending arrival 1-2 weeks before it actually arrives. Planet (A) spares four ships to warn worlds further away and allied polities rimwards-spinwards & rimwards-trailing of it, and braces itself bravely to face this new peril.
Planet (B) has a fleet of 180 relic vessels of their own manufacture (60 Large monitors, 120 smaller ships), of which 2/3's are non-jump capable, having been a defensive non-aligned stellar powerful system before the Collapse.
Any former TL-16 defenses it has recovered/ replaced in the past 32 years or could maintain at TL-12, are present. Unlike A, it chooses not to warn its neighbors when its pickets report sighting this enemy fleet, but like planet A, defends itself from what remains after planet A's assault.
Planet B's people have made their own alliance with their own Viral entities, and each faces extinction against this new foe.
Given that this Imperial-era fleet is Virally controlled of one mind, and is heedless of its own casualties, is it conceivable some portion of this Vampire fleet will still be standing to face Planet C, given the layered defensive works both A & B must have invested in against such an attack?
I appreciate any insight to this matter you can bring me.
Sincerely,
]Robject:
Case exercise for you (in light of my above post), and say your friend David Smart:
Three High population worlds as examples:
Planet A: C686948-C N Hi An 623 (Formerly B686973-F N Hi An Cp 723 M1V)
Planet B: CA89A58-C Hi 730 (Formerly
AA89A44-G Hi A730 G0 V).
Planet C: E667A98-8 Hi D:1 802 (Formerly E667A74-9 Hi 702 G2 V M7 D )
Given a single pre-rebellion sized TL-15+ Imperial Fleet (presumes 1000 Total ships, with this a mix of support and close escort vessels)with the purpose of Strike (or Raid), & Destroy (No prisoners taken) worlds it deems disloyal in its path.
The planet's are arranged in the order they are encountered (first to last)by this Imperial-era sized fleet.
Fixed to the first planet (A) is a fleet of nearly 200 former Imperial, and former Solomani vessels (75 Capital ships, 125 smaller combatants), & all but 1/3 of these vessels are jump capable. Any former TL-15 defenses it has recovered/ replaced in the past 32 years or could maintain at TL-12, are present.
Planet (A) has pickets posted and they bring word of the enemy's impending arrival 1-2 weeks before it actually arrives. Planet (A) spares four ships to warn worlds further away and allied polities rimwards-spinwards & rimwards-trailing of it, and braces itself bravely to face this new peril.
Planet (B) has a fleet of 180 relic vessels of their own manufacture (60 Large monitors, 120 smaller ships), of which 2/3's are non-jump capable, having been a defensive non-aligned stellar powerful system before the Collapse.
Any former TL-16 defenses it has recovered/ replaced in the past 32 years or could maintain at TL-12, are present. Unlike A, it chooses not to warn its neighbors when its pickets report sighting this enemy fleet, but like planet A, defends itself from what remains after planet A's assault.
Planet B's people have made their own alliance with their own Viral entities, and each faces extinction against this new foe.
Given that this Imperial-era fleet is Virally controlled of one mind, and is heedless of its own casualties, is it conceivable some portion of this Vampire fleet will still be standing to face Planet C, given the layered defensive works both A & B must have invested in against such an attack?
I appreciate any insight to this matter you can bring me.
Sincerely,
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Having just received and digested a book on pre 1918 german costal defences I simply had to design this one GTL 10/TTL 12 space fortress:
8,000-ton Langluetjens-class Space Fortress (TL10)
A small space fortress/fighter sortie base transportable by battle rider or large jump-frighter, the Langenlutjens class space fortress features heavy stealthing, total compartmentalisation, double system layout, a turret-safe armor, heavy meson screens and an armament of five long range particle accelerator bays aided by laser and sandcaster batteries. All weapons are build as pop up systems to benefit the most from the hulls heavy armor.
While the fortress itself is a powerful defence system, it also houses three squadrons of light fighters (36 total), 6 standard SDB and 6 Assault/Landing craft for the stations marine complement. These allow the base to attack the enemy before those come into range to fire at the base.
Since the stations crew are normally rotated out once every 90 days, the crew accomodations are rather spacious with individual cabins for the crew members and large recreational areas for all aboard.
Physically the station is build as a rounded block, some 180meters long, 60 meters wide and 40 meters thick.The main guns are placed on one of the large surfaces while the smaller sides contain the hangar bay doors. The crew and engineering systems are wedged in between the gun and small craft decks using them as additional shielding against enemy fire.
Crew: 400 Total. 22 Command and Control, 9 Maneuver Drive, 4 Meson Screen Operators, 8 Nuclear Damper Operators, 5 Weapon Bay Gunners, 20 Turret Gunners, 28 Maintenance, 160 Marines</P>
Design: 8,000-ton USL Hull, Heavy Frame, DR 25,000, Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, Radical Stealth, Radical Emission Cloaking, 5 Lg External Bay (PUp) (DR 2,000) with one 29 Gj Lg PAW Bay, 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with three 250 Mj Std Laser, 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with three Sand Caster [200], 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with one 810 Mj Hv Laser.
Modules: 2 Command Cockpit (Hardened), 4 PESA-UHv, 2 Traffic Control, 2 Advanced Sensors, 2 EW (Hardened), 2 Adv Commo Suite, 2 Engineering, 51 Fusion Power Slice, 500 Meson Screen (DR 26,471), 2 Nuclear Damper (15 mi), 2 Nuclear Damper (15 mi), 626 Maneuver Drive (25,040 stons thrust), 15 Utility, 400 Stateroom, 10 Military Sickbay, 8 Gymnasium, 4 Logistics, 3 Hall/Bar/Conference Room, 50 Escape Capsule, 4 Normal Office, Stage, Theater, 3 Military Holoventure, 5 Brig, 20 Shooting Range, 6 Galley, 10 Brig/Armory/Safe, 7 Complete Workshop, 9 Troop Armory, 2 Zero G Handball Court, 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 360 Spacedock (6x30-ton Bucaneer-class Assault Landing Craft[30dt Assault Shuttle]), 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 870 Hold.</P>
Statistics: EMass 245,823.72 stons, LMass 250,173.72 stons, Cost MCr15,168.54, HP: 510,000 (DT 25,500), Size Modifier: +12, HT 10, Maint. 0.2 Hrs (591.2 man-hrs./day).</P>
Performance: sAccel 0.10 G / 0.10 G (empty tanks), Air Speed 0 mph, Dodge -2 + 1/2 Pilot Skill (-4 vs Meson Fire).</P>
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 27.12.2006 12:44:30<BR>
Copyright © 2006 by Michael Brinkhues
8,000-ton Langluetjens-class Space Fortress (TL10)
A small space fortress/fighter sortie base transportable by battle rider or large jump-frighter, the Langenlutjens class space fortress features heavy stealthing, total compartmentalisation, double system layout, a turret-safe armor, heavy meson screens and an armament of five long range particle accelerator bays aided by laser and sandcaster batteries. All weapons are build as pop up systems to benefit the most from the hulls heavy armor.
While the fortress itself is a powerful defence system, it also houses three squadrons of light fighters (36 total), 6 standard SDB and 6 Assault/Landing craft for the stations marine complement. These allow the base to attack the enemy before those come into range to fire at the base.
Since the stations crew are normally rotated out once every 90 days, the crew accomodations are rather spacious with individual cabins for the crew members and large recreational areas for all aboard.
Physically the station is build as a rounded block, some 180meters long, 60 meters wide and 40 meters thick.The main guns are placed on one of the large surfaces while the smaller sides contain the hangar bay doors. The crew and engineering systems are wedged in between the gun and small craft decks using them as additional shielding against enemy fire.
Crew: 400 Total. 22 Command and Control, 9 Maneuver Drive, 4 Meson Screen Operators, 8 Nuclear Damper Operators, 5 Weapon Bay Gunners, 20 Turret Gunners, 28 Maintenance, 160 Marines</P>
Design: 8,000-ton USL Hull, Heavy Frame, DR 25,000, Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, Radical Stealth, Radical Emission Cloaking, 5 Lg External Bay (PUp) (DR 2,000) with one 29 Gj Lg PAW Bay, 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with three 250 Mj Std Laser, 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with three Sand Caster [200], 10 Pop Turret (DR 2,000) with one 810 Mj Hv Laser.
Modules: 2 Command Cockpit (Hardened), 4 PESA-UHv, 2 Traffic Control, 2 Advanced Sensors, 2 EW (Hardened), 2 Adv Commo Suite, 2 Engineering, 51 Fusion Power Slice, 500 Meson Screen (DR 26,471), 2 Nuclear Damper (15 mi), 2 Nuclear Damper (15 mi), 626 Maneuver Drive (25,040 stons thrust), 15 Utility, 400 Stateroom, 10 Military Sickbay, 8 Gymnasium, 4 Logistics, 3 Hall/Bar/Conference Room, 50 Escape Capsule, 4 Normal Office, Stage, Theater, 3 Military Holoventure, 5 Brig, 20 Shooting Range, 6 Galley, 10 Brig/Armory/Safe, 7 Complete Workshop, 9 Troop Armory, 2 Zero G Handball Court, 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 360 Spacedock (6x30-ton Bucaneer-class Assault Landing Craft[30dt Assault Shuttle]), 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 240 Spacedock (12x10-ton Iramda Fighter), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 1,600 Spacedock (2xTL10 SDB), 870 Hold.</P>
Statistics: EMass 245,823.72 stons, LMass 250,173.72 stons, Cost MCr15,168.54, HP: 510,000 (DT 25,500), Size Modifier: +12, HT 10, Maint. 0.2 Hrs (591.2 man-hrs./day).</P>
Performance: sAccel 0.10 G / 0.10 G (empty tanks), Air Speed 0 mph, Dodge -2 + 1/2 Pilot Skill (-4 vs Meson Fire).</P>
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 27.12.2006 12:44:30<BR>
Copyright © 2006 by Michael Brinkhues
Looks like a mean target; what's the Vilani word for bear trap?
Still, they would more than likely only be deployed in areas of high value; jump crossroads, high pop, resource rich, or military significance. Then again, their limited mobility would allow an invader to pick and choose the time of their attack. Fortunately, these would also be same areas where a wise commander would have manuevering forces available to drive invaders into range of the orbital batteries or prevent them from escaping the crossfire.
Maybe an interesting twist would be the PCs stubbling on an apparently undefended military research station or Ancient artifact, only to realize too late it has a few unseen friends (or maybe just one) nearby.
Still, they would more than likely only be deployed in areas of high value; jump crossroads, high pop, resource rich, or military significance. Then again, their limited mobility would allow an invader to pick and choose the time of their attack. Fortunately, these would also be same areas where a wise commander would have manuevering forces available to drive invaders into range of the orbital batteries or prevent them from escaping the crossfire.
Maybe an interesting twist would be the PCs stubbling on an apparently undefended military research station or Ancient artifact, only to realize too late it has a few unseen friends (or maybe just one) nearby.
The scenario is too vague.
Are those 3 planets all in seperate systems?
Are the fleets the sole defense?
How can planet A's pickets predict anything, much less warn anyone before the attackers strike? I mean, beyond "They're massing in system 1234, and they could be launching any time in the next 2 weeks."
And what are the targets? "The planet", specific targets ON the planet? Orbital facilities?
Mind, most of this is reasonably irrelevant.
The 1000 ship fleet can well jump in and simply destroy the 200 ship fleet either in detail (if the defenders engage sporadically), or en masse should they all simply meet headlong and trade blows.
Once the attacking fleet destroys the defending fleet, well, that's pretty much all she wrote.
See, the fallacy here is that somehow the defenders have an advantage when they in fact do not.
Barring terrestrial based defenses where the defender can leverage the "unlimited hull size" that the planet represents (I'll take 100,000 missile turrets for the win, Alex.), there is little benefit to the defender.
There is no territorial advantage, space is space is space. It's large, WIDE open, very unforgiving.
There is little to no surprise advantage. Unless you know exactly where the arriving fleet is going to come in, and are lucky enough to park your fleet right on top of their point of entry (which can be any arbitrary point that the attacker wishes outside of the 100D limit), then odds are the attacking fleet will have enough time to reorient itself and bring itself to bear upon the defending fleet.
The ultimate best case scenario is being at the point of entry and leveraging any dispersion of the fleet, assuming a 12 hr Jump window, where if evenly spread out, 12 ships jumping simultaneously would arrive 1 every hour for 12 hours, and in random order.
It's not clear to me whether that's simply the problem with Jump or an extra 10 minutes with the Jump computer, or maybe a few more decimal positions can fix that time of arrival.
But assume that any fleet gets scattered across a 12 hr window of time. Then, for a 1000 ship fleet, that's 84 ships/hr.
So, your 200 ship fleet will have some advantage for about 2-4 hrs IF they're parked right on top (i.e. within firing range) where the enemy fleet arrives. If they're more than a few hours away from the arriving fleet, well, not a whole lot of surprise there on either side.
And, frankly, if that's the reality of jump mechanics, and fleet maneuver, no fleet is going to pop in to a system as a single blob scattered over 12 hrs. They're going to pop farther out of system, and scatter the fleet to regroup, just to rule out landing on top an enemy fleet with REALLY GOOD intelligence.
Or, they'd simply pick several approaches, and randomly pick a POE just before jump, just to make sure that information doesn't sneak out of the planning room.
Once the fleet has arrived, however, well, its 1000 vs 200. Gunfight at the OK Football Stadium. Big area, no cover, horribly lethal. "You 5 take him, you 5 take the other one, etc. Someone say 'Go'."
The only two advantages a defender has is leveraging the planets as huge weapons platforms, and utilizing the combat advantage that non-jump capable ships have over jump ships. That's pretty much it.
Other than that it's simply a numbers game based on various ratios of quantity vs quality (TL). You can certainly attrit the attacking fleet. In the case, there may not be 1000 ships that hit the 3rd world. But I bet there will be rougly 700-800, with the attrition happening to the smaller vessels rather than the capital ships of the fleet.
Also, it's important as to whether the defenders at Planet A KNOW they are defending Planet C. That will be a different tactical environment and would affect target selections.
Are those 3 planets all in seperate systems?
Are the fleets the sole defense?
How can planet A's pickets predict anything, much less warn anyone before the attackers strike? I mean, beyond "They're massing in system 1234, and they could be launching any time in the next 2 weeks."
And what are the targets? "The planet", specific targets ON the planet? Orbital facilities?
Mind, most of this is reasonably irrelevant.
The 1000 ship fleet can well jump in and simply destroy the 200 ship fleet either in detail (if the defenders engage sporadically), or en masse should they all simply meet headlong and trade blows.
Once the attacking fleet destroys the defending fleet, well, that's pretty much all she wrote.
See, the fallacy here is that somehow the defenders have an advantage when they in fact do not.
Barring terrestrial based defenses where the defender can leverage the "unlimited hull size" that the planet represents (I'll take 100,000 missile turrets for the win, Alex.), there is little benefit to the defender.
There is no territorial advantage, space is space is space. It's large, WIDE open, very unforgiving.
There is little to no surprise advantage. Unless you know exactly where the arriving fleet is going to come in, and are lucky enough to park your fleet right on top of their point of entry (which can be any arbitrary point that the attacker wishes outside of the 100D limit), then odds are the attacking fleet will have enough time to reorient itself and bring itself to bear upon the defending fleet.
The ultimate best case scenario is being at the point of entry and leveraging any dispersion of the fleet, assuming a 12 hr Jump window, where if evenly spread out, 12 ships jumping simultaneously would arrive 1 every hour for 12 hours, and in random order.
It's not clear to me whether that's simply the problem with Jump or an extra 10 minutes with the Jump computer, or maybe a few more decimal positions can fix that time of arrival.
But assume that any fleet gets scattered across a 12 hr window of time. Then, for a 1000 ship fleet, that's 84 ships/hr.
So, your 200 ship fleet will have some advantage for about 2-4 hrs IF they're parked right on top (i.e. within firing range) where the enemy fleet arrives. If they're more than a few hours away from the arriving fleet, well, not a whole lot of surprise there on either side.
And, frankly, if that's the reality of jump mechanics, and fleet maneuver, no fleet is going to pop in to a system as a single blob scattered over 12 hrs. They're going to pop farther out of system, and scatter the fleet to regroup, just to rule out landing on top an enemy fleet with REALLY GOOD intelligence.
Or, they'd simply pick several approaches, and randomly pick a POE just before jump, just to make sure that information doesn't sneak out of the planning room.
Once the fleet has arrived, however, well, its 1000 vs 200. Gunfight at the OK Football Stadium. Big area, no cover, horribly lethal. "You 5 take him, you 5 take the other one, etc. Someone say 'Go'."
The only two advantages a defender has is leveraging the planets as huge weapons platforms, and utilizing the combat advantage that non-jump capable ships have over jump ships. That's pretty much it.
Other than that it's simply a numbers game based on various ratios of quantity vs quality (TL). You can certainly attrit the attacking fleet. In the case, there may not be 1000 ships that hit the 3rd world. But I bet there will be rougly 700-800, with the attrition happening to the smaller vessels rather than the capital ships of the fleet.
Also, it's important as to whether the defenders at Planet A KNOW they are defending Planet C. That will be a different tactical environment and would affect target selections.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Hal, Ran Targas, others..
From Lonnie's Tribblescape Anglic-Vilani machine:
Bear Trap: "Biramar Ebir"
From Lonnie's Tribblescape Anglic-Vilani machine:
Bear Trap: "Biramar Ebir"
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Planet A has sent warning to its allies, Planet B is not one of them. Their own pickets and scouts have seen it coming. Planet C is among those allies of planet A, and thus gets warning (by the actual courier at J4 --a relic 200dtn yacht). Word gets to them 4 weeks (+/- 2 days) later.
Planet A's hope against hope is that they can buy time for worlds like Planet C and others less populous to send help. Therefore, A's defense will be to the bitter end. They cannot escape and can only buy time until help arrives.
Planet A's government & Miliatry leaders know that even with their best jump courier ships (2 type T-patrol cruisers and a yacht at J4) it will take 5 weeks to reach their farthest ally's capital, and four weeks to the nearest (and larger) ally's border systems.
Unsaid, the attack on A goes down the same week/ perhaps day the Vampire Fleet arrives in system belonging to Ally D, which is a forward Naval base. Therefore A's intent in its defense must try to hold out at least 4 weeks.
Ally E gets word one week after attack began (fifth week, plus or minus 2 days).
Prior intelligence of Vampire Fleet traffic before this event showed Planet A most likely avenues of travel, but this fleet is far, far larger than previous ones, and acts in concert with chilling machine precision. Vessels among this reported of tonnages and classes never before seen. Unlike other Vampire fleets it does not quibble and have shoot outs amidst their own kind jockeying for refueling turns at gas giants, but behaves like an organized pre rebellion Imperial Fleet, which no one has seen in over 80 years.
In this case scenario, we presume since 1180 all three have regained their systems from vampire influence and have retrenched their defensive networks.
yes, all three lie along the "Vampire Highway". The year ending when sited is December 1210. The attack takes place in first 2 weeks, January 1211. Not exactly your TNE-TU's Merry Christmas & a Happy New year.
With all of this, again--how would you defend if planet A?
Planet B is non-aligned and thus has no allies to warn, or will come to its aid so must defend itself anyways it can. Planet B's sole advantages over A is that they are allied with AI-Cyms themselves against an Ai-Cym controlled fleet, and have more people, and a few TL-G relic defense weapons, whereas A has a few surviving relic defense weapons TL-F. the majority of their new systems are TL-C.
How many of the enemy would remain?
You cannot evacuate your entire population, you haven't the transports to do so. You are as planet A, literally and figuratively the 57th century "500 Spartans": this is your Thermopylae.
Based on the scenario as presented - I would likely have to decide as the planetary leader, what is the likely best path to follow. If the vampire fleet is heading towards our world much like the Beserker fleet from Saberhagen - I'd consider sending those jump capable ships outbound with refugees to the nearest best location that has a chance against the vampire fleet. Those ships that can't jump out, would be told to use their manuever drives to head outbound to 6 different rendevous points - also ladened with refugees (In low berths likely). From there, pray that those jump ships can reach a point where they can let the defending planet know where the system defense boats are going with the refugees and head out. First come first serve would be the motto for the refugees. Since the vampire fleet will sterilize the planet regardless, chances are, the ONLY thing that will save people at all would be to locate any subterrainian places, place all low berth units below on battery power, and pray that what ever sterilizes the planet doesn't kill those who go into hibernation.
Planet A is done for and the ships would be too valuable to throw away in a grand gesture of defiance. Never mind the modern day equivalents of the Spartans - retreat until a critical mass of ships can be gathered.
As for when a critical mass can be gathered? Divine wind time - kamakazi 200 dton freighters, fighters, etc - making every last space capable ship count. Make every last weapon platform fight as if there were no tomorrow. When sterilization of entire systems are the only fates left for humans, it quickly becomes a "fight knowing you've lost, but make those demonic machines disappear in the hopes that SOMEONE benefits"
That's my take on it anyhow
Planet A is done for and the ships would be too valuable to throw away in a grand gesture of defiance. Never mind the modern day equivalents of the Spartans - retreat until a critical mass of ships can be gathered.
As for when a critical mass can be gathered? Divine wind time - kamakazi 200 dton freighters, fighters, etc - making every last space capable ship count. Make every last weapon platform fight as if there were no tomorrow. When sterilization of entire systems are the only fates left for humans, it quickly becomes a "fight knowing you've lost, but make those demonic machines disappear in the hopes that SOMEONE benefits"
That's my take on it anyhow
RandyT0001
SOC-13
Personally I have a very hard time believing that the Vampire fleet could amass one thousand capital ships (which I read and understand to be dreadnaughts) plus support vessels from the remains of a totally shattered Imperium that (IMO) might have had two or three thousand capital ships at it's peak scattered across it's entire domain at any one time in the first place. IMO such a Vampire fleet is composed of several sectors worth of sector fleets and I don't think the Vampire fleets were ever that big. I might believe the total number of ships, of all types, capital, support, etc. might get to one thousand but even that would, IMO, in the time of the New Era consist of three or so sectors worth of ships given the devestation of the civil war and appearance of Virus.
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
If you evacuate however many with jump capable warships (limited due to Jump fuel bunkerage anyways its passenger Lowberth amounts carried anyways), which in Planet A's case leaves 1/3 Non-jump in SBD's and monitors to defend with, you lessen your chances of holding out 4 weeks or so.
The tactic of moving as many civilians into deepsited low berths, I can see as manageable, again, first come first served, or by lottery. (hence there will be survivors to rescue later). Thank you Hal, you confirm my thoughts on what is "possible" and "probable"!
Kamikaze-style responses against the Vampire Fleet, yes, that will occur. And, thanks to others further back in this thread, every deepsited planetary meson weapon and defensive battery (base TL-12+) will exhaust itself until their personnel are no longer living.
I am well aware that attritional losses will be inflicted on this fleet, so much so that it fragments into three distinct remaining groups, (which it employed before coalescing over planet A, sweeping down the Vampire Highway, and each flanking subsector along it).
The tactic of moving as many civilians into deepsited low berths, I can see as manageable, again, first come first served, or by lottery. (hence there will be survivors to rescue later). Thank you Hal, you confirm my thoughts on what is "possible" and "probable"!
Kamikaze-style responses against the Vampire Fleet, yes, that will occur. And, thanks to others further back in this thread, every deepsited planetary meson weapon and defensive battery (base TL-12+) will exhaust itself until their personnel are no longer living.
I am well aware that attritional losses will be inflicted on this fleet, so much so that it fragments into three distinct remaining groups, (which it employed before coalescing over planet A, sweeping down the Vampire Highway, and each flanking subsector along it).
Liam,
Whoa... dial it back a bit there partner!
It's 1000 capital ships including escorts per sector and not per fleet. And a sector would have over 32 fleets in which to pass those ships about.
Those force levels are way too high for the Viral Era. Even the limited force levels presented in M:1248, among other things, strain credulity.
Have fun,
Bill
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
[Edited for clarity & spelling-Mine! ]
Whoa... dial it back a bit there partner!
It's 1000 capital ships including escorts per sector and not per fleet. And a sector would have over 32 fleets in which to pass those ships about.
Those force levels are way too high for the Viral Era. Even the limited force levels presented in M:1248, among other things, strain credulity.
Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, I can dial it down to 1000 ships total. I was recalling the MT-era data here on a Fleet.
As for credulity, Bill, Randy--I'm trying to work within a framework established in M:1248 by others. I appreciate the heads up, thats a very good point, but no less diminishes the threat of 1000 vs 195 ships. The balance in the mix is 32-years of layered defensive-minded folk who planned that someday something bad like this might occur--although they never envisioned 1000 ships--the largest "fleets" they've observed maybe 20-40 vessels total.
]Liam,
Whoa... dial it back a bit there partner!
It's 1000 capital ships including escorts per sector and not per fleet. And a sector would have over 32 fleets in which to pass those ships about.
Those force levels are way too high for the Viral Era. Even the limited force levels presented in M:1248, among other things, strain credulity.
Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, I can dial it down to 1000 ships total. I was recalling the MT-era data here on a Fleet.
As for credulity, Bill, Randy--I'm trying to work within a framework established in M:1248 by others. I appreciate the heads up, thats a very good point, but no less diminishes the threat of 1000 vs 195 ships. The balance in the mix is 32-years of layered defensive-minded folk who planned that someday something bad like this might occur--although they never envisioned 1000 ships--the largest "fleets" they've observed maybe 20-40 vessels total.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Sorry for the post-time lag there Mr Tyler, I was posting reply with my busy server. So Noted!
Bill, Randy, others--
this is the M:1248 tasked fleet sent to destroy those states in 1210-1211(as is discovered by those who must gather and oppose what remains of this "Fleet")that had changed sides--data of said worlds is of course 1129-30ish, as evidenced by its bombardment of even "dead" worlds that had sided away from Lucan late in the MT-HT period. This piecemeal final solution tactic by this Vampire fleet is one of the measures that works against it, and allows those who were warned to gather forces to oppose it--even as they attempted to guess where it would go next.
My scenario is trying to pool "brain power" here on the CoTI boards on a logical amount of attrition that could be inflicted to such a fleet, which as aforementioned is heedless of its own casualties.
Bill, Randy, others--
this is the M:1248 tasked fleet sent to destroy those states in 1210-1211(as is discovered by those who must gather and oppose what remains of this "Fleet")that had changed sides--data of said worlds is of course 1129-30ish, as evidenced by its bombardment of even "dead" worlds that had sided away from Lucan late in the MT-HT period. This piecemeal final solution tactic by this Vampire fleet is one of the measures that works against it, and allows those who were warned to gather forces to oppose it--even as they attempted to guess where it would go next.
My scenario is trying to pool "brain power" here on the CoTI boards on a logical amount of attrition that could be inflicted to such a fleet, which as aforementioned is heedless of its own casualties.
