embracing retro 'puters

[aramis]

Sorry, I don't understand your table.

It shows the number of chances out of 7776 rolls for the various number of passengers (vertical axis) by pop codes of source → pop codes of destination. Non-cumulatively.

It boils down to: you're going to get a 70% or less fill on 8 HP between a population 6-7 world and a population 8-9-A world. Between two 6-7 pop worlds, you'll be lucky to get 6.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It shows the number of chances out of 7776 rolls for the various number of passengers (vertical axis) by pop codes of source → pop codes of destination. Non-cumulatively.

Thanks.

It boils down to: you're going to get a 70% or less fill on 8 HP between a population 6-7 world and a population 8-9-A world. Between two 6-7 pop worlds, you'll be lucky to get 6.

Presuming no TL difference? OK.

Pop 6-7 world generates an average of 3d-2d, ... this averages 3.5 HP ...

Given that negative results are not possible the average is close to 3.9 not 3.5.



You have a lot higher chance to fill a fixed number of staterooms if you roll for both High and Mid passengers.

Let's take the Subbie as an example, we have 9 staterooms available for either 9 Mid or 8 Mid + High passengers + 1 Steward.

Between pop 6 worlds of equal TL we will carry average about:
3.7 Mid (filling the ship about 10% of the time) or
6.0 Hi + Mid passengers (filling the ship about 50% of the time).

The average 2.3 extra passengers easily pays for the Steward.


Going back-and-forth between a Pop 6 TL 8 world and a Pop 8 TL A world we will carry average about:
6.0 Mid or
7.3 Hi + Mid

Again the average 1.3 extra passengers easily pays for the Steward.



If we instead take a Free Trader with 7 staterooms available (easier to fill):
Between pop 6 worlds of equal TL we will carry average about:
3.5 Mid (filling the ship about 20% of the time) or
5 Hi + Mid passengers (filling the ship about 65% of the time).

The average 1.5 extra passengers easily pays for the Steward.

 

[mike wightman]

They pay the steward's wages, but you also have to take into account the steward needs a stateroom so you are one passenger stateroom or 4t of cargo down on a ship that only carries MP.

 

[aramis]

Free Traders in the 200 to 400 ton range aren't going to be pure passenger ships. 8's about as many as one can fill on a subsidy route. Further, running with highs is not reliable when tramping to follow the goods' best point of sale.

 

[Whipsnade]

I always wanted my players to take the steward position and skill seriously because of the adventure hooks it would provide me. Instead they always ignored it, folded it into another position, or "subcontracted" it out to a NPC.

Thanks to Wil, I finally realized they knew the numbers better than I did!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

They pay the steward's wages, but you also have to take into account the steward needs a stateroom so you are one passenger stateroom or 4t of cargo down on a ship that only carries MP.

Obviously, which is why that is the first thing I did in my calculations:

Let's take the Subbie as an example, we have 9 staterooms available for either 9 Mid or 8 Mid + High passengers + 1 Steward.

 

[mike wightman]

Here are the numbers as I see them:
400t subbie
9 x MP = 9 x 8000 = 72,000
less 1t of lost cargo freight so 71,000

8 x HP = 8x10000 = 80,000
less 8t of lost cargo freight = 72,000
less steward wage 1500 = 70,500

9 MP get you greater income.

However it is pointless to run with empty staterooms.

For the free trader with 6 staterooms then MP is still preferred

7 x MP = 7 x 8000 = 56,000 less the 1t cargo 55,000

6 x HP = 6 x 10,000 = 60,000 less 6t cargo less wage = 52,500

By the way can anyone give a clear example of what this means:

Tech Level: add (or subtract) difference between origin and destination.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Here are the numbers as I see them:
400t subbie
9 x MP = 9 x 8000 = 72,000
less 1t of lost cargo freight so 71,000

8 x HP = 8x10000 = 80,000
less 8t of lost cargo freight = 72,000
less steward wage 1500 = 70,500

9 MP get you greater income.

Yes, but you will rarely fill all staterooms. By rolling for both Mid and Hi passengers you will on average carry more passengers.
Note: you haven't included costs for life support, nor capital costs for the extra stateroom.

However it is pointless to run with empty staterooms.

Exactly, which is why it is important to carry as many passengers as possible by rolling for both Hi plus Mid pax.

By the way can anyone give a clear example of what this means:

Tech Level: add (or subtract) difference between origin and destination.

Origin world: TL 8
Destination: TL 10
DM = TL8 - TL10 = -2

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Here are the numbers as I see them:
400t subbie
9 x MP = 9 x 8000 = 72,000

You forgot Life support reducing income from MP to kCr 6 and HP to kCr 8.

9 MP = 9 × ( 8000 - 2000 ) = kCr 54

8 HP = 8 × ( 10000 - 2000 ) = kCr 64
- Steward life support kCr 2
- Steward salary kCr 1.5
- lost cargo kCr 1
Sum: kCr 59.5

So, HP earns more than MP (if we can always sell all berths; unlikely)

8 x HP = 8x10000 = 80,000
less 8t of lost cargo freight = 72,000

Sorry I missed that.

Yes, if a HP is 5 Dt it is clearly unprofitable and should never be sold.

I generally assume a baggage allowance of 1000 kg.
Since the last few uneven Dt in the cargo hold are difficult to sell I don't count the opportunity cost of a Dt or so of baggage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, if a HP is 5 Dt it is clearly unprofitable and should never be sold.

Let's see what happens with a free trader (7 available SR) if we include the chance of picking up passengers:

Among pop 6 worlds (equal tech):
With only 7 MP we sell an average of 3.5 MP earning kCr 21.
With 6 Hi+Mid we sell an average of 3.3 HP and 1.6 MP earning kCr 29.

We are still better off with a Steward since we sell more tickets on average.

 

[RandyB]

I am a bit confused. How did this go from a discussion of computers to a discussion of trade economics? Did I miss something?

Traveller discussion always becomes a discussion of trade economics. Or Jump shadows. Or both. :CoW: :coffeesip: :devil:

 

[Spartan159]

Economical jump shadow trades, it's the new thing.

 

[kilemall]

I am a bit confused. How did this go from a discussion of computers to a discussion of trade economics? Did I miss something?

Me, of course.

The computer rules are heavily tied into the trade game because the computer in CT is the big ticket item to increase the capability of the ship, particularly in combat.


But even the move from jump cassette to the Generate program is a low level first step goal literally built into the Free Trader progression. You are stuck making jumps to commercial routes, bleeding profit each time.

Suddenly with Generate you paid up and are done with the erasable media franchise, AND have the freedom to jump straight to that outer planet smuggler's moon or exploration.



I expect most people gloss over that and hand the keys over to expedite play, I would choose to do so most times, but that doesn't change what the DESIGN was for the computer subgame.

A dowdy Free Trader with a couple turrets might look like fresh meat to a Corsair, but load it with a computer and programs doubling the ship's cost, and suddenly that Corsair will be in the fight of it's life.

Be able to fund one of those million credit supplement nuke missiles and fire it off when no government is looking, it might not even be fair contest.

 

[kilemall]

I did the COMPLETE set of numbers but decided to skip it- what most of you are missing is the FINANCED cost of that stateroom/lowberth, the portion of the mortgage payment that is directly from having that passenger facility vs. just having cargo tonnage.


I also worked out per ton per trip costing so we could compare it to a Cr1000 no cost cargo ton (which itself can be costly if it's empty).


Again, the reason to carry stewards is to ensure the staterooms are full on every trip and the cost of the passenger facility is defrayed, not to make money. You make your money on staterooms carrying the extra manpower for the million credit scheme.


That'll teach me for not going full accountant in an effort to spare people- you guys WANT that! Or maybe need that.

 

[aramis]

Let's see what happens with a free trader (7 available SR) if we include the chance of picking up passengers:

Among pop 6 worlds (equal tech):
With only 7 MP we sell an average of 3.5 MP earning kCr 21.
With 6 Hi+Mid we sell an average of 3.3 HP and 1.6 MP earning kCr 29.

We are still better off with a Steward since we sell more tickets on average.

1: you've not accounted for the usual someone in the crew having the needed +1 for mids. Pushes that to 4.5 or even 5.5 mids on average, ignoring TL.
2: you're not thinking in terms of replacement cost, still.

You take it in the shorts when you account for the cost of the steward when all you get is mids.

the steward costs Cr2500 per jump plus loss of a mid stateroom. It doesn't matter if you get 0 or 6, you still have to pay that Cr2500 and can't fill his SR with a mid. So, ALWAYS costs Cr2500, and with an average of 1.6 MP, given the either 0.1 (using the TNE 10 tonnes per Td and a mass limit) or 1.0 Td of space lost to baggage... the difference in price is 2000 per HP, but you've also locked out about 1/6 of runs having the 7th passenger at +8000.
So roughly, Cr1830 for the lost opportunities for the 7th passenger, AND the Cr2500 per jump to keep the steward, you need a steady 2 to make it more valuable.

Keeping stewards aboard is only really viable in cases where you're on a dedicated High-to-high route, or where you've gone to a per parsec pricing model. Carrying passengers is essentially a loss for 200 Ton ships - the routes they'd realistically run will not fill even 5 berths routinely using CT core.

Freight is profitable - several hundred credits per ton, and an 80% fill pays the bills. Drop some spec on top of that...

So, unless you have a robo-steward, it's not worth it for highs, and mids are about a break even on profit per ton.

 

[mike wightman]

The steward costs 3000 per month, since you can do two jumps a month by rules as written that is a per jump cost of 1500.

2000Cr life support cost per trip per occupied stateroom - does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

2000Cr life support cost per trip per occupied stateroom - does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

I would say in general not; It's difficult to get a container into a stateroom.

Of course we can stack some boxes in a spare stateroom, but nowhere near 4 Dt.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

1: you've not accounted for the usual someone in the crew having the needed +1 for mids. Pushes that to 4.5 or even 5.5 mids on average, ignoring TL.

No, and neither have I used a skill DM on High. Since Steward gives a DM on the High passenger roll I guess it is more likely than the DM on Mid.

A skill DM of +1 will not increase the average carried passengers by +1 since we are sometimes flying full anyway and the additional passenger is left behind. For a Free Trader (7 staterooms) travelling between pop6 worlds a +1 DM on the Mid table increases the average carried passengers from 3.5 to 4.1.

In either case it just helps you to fill a few more staterooms; but having both High and Mid will always fill more staterooms than just Mid.

2: you're not thinking in terms of replacement cost, still.

That is where we started a few pages ago; passengers are more profitable than freight if we can fill the staterooms, but nothing competes with speculative cargo.

the steward costs Cr2500 per jump plus loss of a mid stateroom.

Yes, obviously, and that is obviously included in my calculations since the beginning.

The simple fact is that by rolling for both High and Mid you will get more available passengers than if you only roll on the Mid table. By rolling two rolls you also reduce the chance of a single low roll that forces you to run with empty staterooms.

Keeping stewards aboard is only really viable in cases where you're on a dedicated High-to-high route, ...

Not keeping a Steward is only viable if you can reliably fill all staterooms with Mid passengers, which is only really possible when you only travel between pop 8+ worlds; not the Free Traders natural habitat.

 

[Ulsyus]

I expect most people gloss over that and hand the keys over to expedite play, I would choose to do so most times, but that doesn't change what the DESIGN was for the computer subgame.

A dowdy Free Trader with a couple turrets might look like fresh meat to a Corsair, but load it with a computer and programs doubling the ship's cost, and suddenly that Corsair will be in the fight of it's life.

Be able to fund one of those million credit supplement nuke missiles and fire it off when no government is looking, it might not even be fair contest.

I agree - the ability to calculate Jumps between systems has been a significant element of ship-based games I've run. It's a game of interstellar travel for Murphy's sake, there needs to be some emphasis on that. Plus some sweating by players on making sure they have all the right info.

If most ships don't have the ability to Generate their own Jump solutions then they're virtually hostage to the navigation aids that are commercially available, which can of course be manipulated (hey, just had an idea for a scenario...) for commercial gain. When able to navigate Jump for themselves, merchants become far more independent. This is where I see small tramp freighters able to make a living and possibly healthy profit on the margins - being able to do the runs that are not available to the majority of vessels due to Authorities shaping where they can go.

That'll teach me for not going full accountant in an effort to spare people- you guys WANT that! Or maybe need that.

Yes. Yes we do Kile.

 

[aramis]

The steward costs 3000 per month, since you can do two jumps a month by rules as written that is a per jump cost of 1500.

2000Cr life support cost per trip per occupied stateroom - does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

I'd say you'd be able to put about 1Td into a stateroom...
the room itself is half of the 4 Td, and the things like the bed, table, and closets make it less than ideal for even break-bulk (boxed goods).

Pretty much anything bought by the Td is going to be in large containers most of the time (containerized cargo)... and those won't fit down the halls.