embracing retro 'puters

[kilemall]

If most ships don't have the ability to Generate their own Jump solutions then they're virtually hostage to the navigation aids that are commercially available, which can of course be manipulated (hey, just had an idea for a scenario...) for commercial gain.

Oh ya, Patron missions- 'here is your tape, run it to get to the rendezvous'- and there is all manner of wrong going on there....

Yes. Yes we do Kile.

Akkkkiskkkit! <Kifish complaining


Everybody does that.


It's



Kil
Em
All


I had to lose the second L to fit my handle into an 8 character limit once upon a time.

 

[mike wightman]

Cassette... for the nth time it is cassette not tape.

There may be tape in the cassette, there could be a crystaline DNA matrix, there could be a pocket universe...

 

[kilemall]

The steward costs 3000 per month, since you can do two jumps a month by rules as written that is a per jump cost of 1500.

2000Cr life support cost per trip per occupied stateroom - does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

The point is to compare the utility of the stateroom invested in for financing and continuing operating expenses vs. not having them at all.


Arguably one should not have more then 3-4 staterooms per ship design for MP traffic and only use a steward for charters that require one.

 

[Whipsnade]

... does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

phew... that's a tough one, Mike. Hans and I used to toss that one back and forth. We generally agreed that - in CT - the word "occupied" was the controlling one. So, no life form in the stateroom, no life support costs. We also generally agreed that you could put some cargo in a SR, just not 4dTons worth. We also generally agreed that subtracting CT's known daily food costs from the known life support costs didn't give you much idea of what parts, fungibles, refills, and whatnot made up "life support".

What we firmly agreed on was that - in CT - trying to suss out what "life support" consisted of was below the level of resolution for the game. Later versions provided more data on costs and other aspects, but CT left things purposely vague so, as your quote in my sig explains, "the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves".

 

[BlackBat242]

2000Cr life support cost per trip per occupied stateroom - does that mean you could fill a stateroom with 4t of cargo and ignore the life support cost?

I'd say you'd be able to put about 1Td into a stateroom...
the room itself is half of the 4 Td, and the things like the bed, table, and closets make it less than ideal for even break-bulk (boxed goods).

We also generally agreed that you could put some cargo in a SR, just not 4dTons worth.

Actually, with most ship deck plans show a standard stateroom covering 6 squares, and two squares equaling 1 dt, then the stateroom itself occupies 3dt.
Subtract the fresher, and anything that can't be removed or folded up (especially in a stateroom rated for double-occupancy at least one bed would be a "murphy"*, the desk would fold up against the wall, etc), and you end up with between 1.5 and 2 dt usable volume (maybe a tad bit more) - in a slightly irregular shape with a limited access hatch.

This means that, as Aramis pointed out, such cargo would be in small boxes (~1m x 1m x 2m max)/loose objects, not in standard containers.



* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_bed

Even if you have bunk beds, they can fold against/into the wall if the hinge is along the long side of the bed. In fact, I expect that that would be the normal method of mounting even a single, so as to reduce the height of the upward swing - see the following from the link:

Since the first model several other variations and designs have been created, including: sideways-mounted Murphy beds, Murphy bunk beds, and solutions that include other functions. Murphy beds with tables or desks that fold down when the bed is folded up are popular, and there are also models with sofas and shelving solutions.

One with a folding table/desk built into the underside:

Bunk bed:

Larger image of the above: https://www.nhfirefighters.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Modern-Murphy-Bed-White.jpg

 

[Ulsyus]

That'll teach me for not going full accountant in an effort to spare people- you guys WANT that! Or maybe need that.

There must be a thing about accountants happening recently.

It's

Kil
Em
All

I figured that was the case, but thought Kile was a slightly softer diminutive than Killer. Slightly less Metallic too

Cassette... for the nth time it is cassette not tape.

There may be tape in the cassette, there could be a crystaline DNA matrix, there could be a pocket universe...

I think it's great that a lot of external hard drives are just now somewhere between old audio and video cassette in size. Handy as a prop for use in games when referring to the Jump cassette that's just been handed over by a patron. You know, the one with the topochrystal core

 

[atpollard]

Maybe it is just me, but all this talk of Stewards and Economics seems to have missed one small point ...

The ship will be in PORT for a week between Jumps and a STEWARD is the character likely to have ALL the interpersonal skills that one will likely need when dealing with non-mechanical objects ... like other people.

Ignoring the revenue gained or lost by High or Middle passages for a moment, would the revenue from just one PATRON not likely dwarf the profit from all the High and Mid passages combined?

Yet who is the character with the skills to actually make a positive first contact with potential patrons? Why bless me ... it is the STEWARD! Just out of curiosity, which would be a more "patron rich" environment: High Passengers interacting with a Steward for a week in Jumpspace, or the Ship's Gunner hanging out in a Spacer Bar at the Starport?

But, hey. What do I know about anything. Enjoy your freighters and eating cold MREs.

 

[kilemall]

The reigning creative use of space champion, well at least until the current small house thing, was the Pullman sleeper car. Here is an example-

I always figured more like 2dt private area, 2dt common area for activity, dining, etc.


You could probably squeeze them down to 1dt for sleeping cube/private sitting alone, shared freshers, and provide more amenities. Laundry services are often overlooked, and a pay bar could be a nice source of increased income (or a security threat with drunk passengers).

 

[atpollard]

I was looking through The Imperial Fringe.

Library searches on world info are measured in hours.

I've often argued that the computer tonnages aren't really that huge when one considers what a ship's computer has to do and all the shielding, cooling, redundant features, etc.

But let's back up.

Traveler computers are retro. Traveller info tech is retro. That's the baseline.

Why not just embrace that?

Libraries contain micro-books of the sort so common in sci fi of the early and mid 20th Century. Search engine? You mean the micronized card catalog?


Jump cassettes? Loads of cassettes!

TL 5-7 computers resemble computers from Babbage Engines through 1960s machines, but after that it gets funky.


This aint our future.

edit-

Looks as if I misread something in my skimming of that adventure. It's surveys, really, not library data searches.
Ooops!

OK, back to talkin' Traveller 'Puters ...

I like the big computers. It just FEELS right from a RPG point of view. Who expects to walk aboard the bridge of the Star Trek Enterprise or a Star Wars Destroyer and see the bridge crew sitting in a comfortable living room operating the ship from their iPODS? Starships need Mainframe Computers to feel like starships.

Now it is worth remembering that that Model/1 is Handheld at TL 12 (IIRC) and that 'cassette' data storage goes to small handheld HoloCrystals at TL 13.

As someone who enjoys playing around the edges of the rules (IMTU), I like to imagineer what can be done with a pilot couch cockpit and life support, plus a Model/1 Handcomp on one of those exterior pockets on a pilot jumpsuit, plus a TL 13 data Holocrystal and a cable to plug in and interface the Model/1 with the Linked control panel for the pilot. Now what sort of craft can we build around this quasi-legal "bridge"?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... a STEWARD is the character likely to have ALL the interpersonal skills that one will likely need when dealing with non-mechanical objects ... like other people.

Is the merchant marine the only career that yields interpersonal skills?

 

[whartung]

I've always like the Jump Tape mechanics, however the "tapes" manifest themselves. (Spools of actual tape, a holo crystal, a small grain of supradense nano sand, whatever).

It's an interesting mechanic that in a universe of pervasive accessibility, here's a mechanism to make someplace off limits.

Literally "you can't get there from here".

 

[mike wightman]

Jump CASSETTES are also a great way for the referee to steer a group towards an adventure or two.

A patron can provide the jump cassette to and from a world the players' ship couldn't normally reach during the early days of adventuring - before they have made enough money for the generate programme to replace reliance on jump cassettes.

 

[kilemall]

OK, back to talkin' Traveller 'Puters ...

I like the big computers. It just FEELS right from a RPG point of view. Who expects to walk aboard the bridge of the Star Trek Enterprise or a Star Wars Destroyer and see the bridge crew sitting in a comfortable living room operating the ship from their iPODS? Starships need Mainframe Computers to feel like starships.

Now it is worth remembering that that Model/1 is Handheld at TL 12 (IIRC) and that 'cassette' data storage goes to small handheld HoloCrystals at TL 13.

As someone who enjoys playing around the edges of the rules (IMTU), I like to imagineer what can be done with a pilot couch cockpit and life support, plus a Model/1 Handcomp on one of those exterior pockets on a pilot jumpsuit, plus a TL 13 data Holocrystal and a cable to plug in and interface the Model/1 with the Linked control panel for the pilot. Now what sort of craft can we build around this quasi-legal "bridge"?

Well, fair to say the small craft without Model computers have some sort of minimalist navigation and piloting controls tied into the engineering section.

 

[atpollard]

Is the merchant marine the only career that yields interpersonal skills?

No, just the only career where the player wouldn’t have rather had a starship or combat skill instead.

 

[Timerover51]

I am confused again. What are posts listed as being made by "BwapTed" when quoted show "Combatmedic"?

 

[BwapTED]

I am confused again. What are posts listed as being made by "BwapTed" when quoted show "Combatmedic"?

Virus!


Naw, just a relic of the name-shift.

 

[kilemall]

One thing to keep in mind that is glossed over by HG to an extent and later versions is the toughness of the CT computers. They are real hit sinks. Effectively your entire engineering section can be trashed and on the same number of hits the CT Model could be still semi-functional.

For my part I've largely abandoned the CT computer game anyway as none of my gamers have had the slightest interest in it. Instead I've been persuaded to treat them as previously mentioned, the electronics sophistication and capability of the ship.


In addition IMTU define how capable the ship is in terms of sensors for range and EM spectrum.

 

[Whipsnade]

For my part I've largely abandoned the CT computer game anyway as none of my gamers have had the slightest interest in it.

That's the best - and only - reason anyone needs to do so.

My groups loved the OSR resource management aspect of the computer rules, especially during combat. Discussions about which programs to "upload" between combat turns could get quite heated. Run a Generate program aboard your free trader or run Jump1 and Navigation to use resulting jump plot and you're doing nothing else that phase. I remember on more than one occasion the group deciding they couldn't jump that turn because they couldn't risk not shooting at an incoming missile.

Other groups would find all that beyond tedious because different groups have fun in different ways.

This thread reminded me of the listed program "load outs" in Mayday. Looking at them while remembering the "Included with ship purchase" rule in LBB:2 was interesting. You have a budget for program purchases equal to your computer code in MCr. A Beowulf gets all of one million credits to spend and that is no where near enough. In Mayday the free trader presented has: Anti-Missile, Auto-Evade, Gunner Interact, Jump1, Launch, Maneuver, Navigation, Return Fire, and Target at a cost of 6.6 MCr.

Of course, Mayday is all about ship combat and you need those programs to make combat interesting. It's interesting that you need over six times your "starting" program budget to give a ship average capabilities. And that Mayday list still doesn't include Generate!

Finally, the use of jump ta... cassettes (Hi Mike!) would be a good way for organizations to prevent barratry by subsidized merchant crews. A Type-R might not have a Generate program aboard and instead use cassettes provided by the owners at every stop. The ship would literally be locked into the route it serves.

Withholding a Generate program could also be a nasty way for subsidizing organizations to control subbie crews during those crews' off periods; "So, you saved up 40 weeks off time and are going to spend it trade elsewhere in the Cluster? To bad the ship doesn't have a Generate program, huh? If you'd be interested in renting one however...."

 

[BwapTED]

My wife really likes CT computer rules.

Good reason to keep 'em.

 

[Whipsnade]

My wife really likes CT computer rules.

Good reason to keep 'em.

That's the only reason anyone would need.

The computer "sub-game" effected my players' choices in a few ways. They preferred far traders to free traders for the 100% increase in the CPU capacity equally to jump2. They often worked towards upgrading a free traders Model 1 to a Model 1bis. They even had a "doctrine" for dealing with Vargr corsairs which was based on the limited capacity of that vessel's Model 2 compared to a patrol cruiser's Model 3.

I don't remember the particulars but it involved forcing the corsair into a string of certain programming choices and then switching attack types faster than the corsair could respond to. I do remember one player calling it "racking" after the Union navy's practice in the ACW of smashing up the armor of rebel ironclads with solid shot first and then switching to shells when the armor in a certain section was compromised.

In our Active Duty IISS campaign, my players also convinced me that a Suleiman on active duty would have a better computer than a 1bis. (To be honest, I didn't need much convincing. ) I don't remember of we went with a Model 2bis, 3, or 4 or if I put different models about different ships at different times, but they did get the upgrade they wanted.

Like I wrote earlier, the OSR-style resource management aspect (a phrase we never used because it hadn't been invented yet) was something my players enjoyed and so something we did. Other groups have other ideas and they have fun too.