• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Emergency Situations and responses

You're better off subduing them, shoving them into rescue balls, and hanging them out the airlock on umbilicals than going yourself.
And if someone is psychotic enough to be a threat, the LAST thing you want is to give them a space vehicle - because it's a weapon of mass destruction. Kill them, and be done with it.

In the specific case of infectious diseases, by the time you notice, everyone is already exposed. separation merely condemns the infirm.

Hi,

A big issue here would be whether you become aware of a potential threat in order to act, or whether the threat ends up surprising you. Overall, there appear to be numerous situations, both in law enforcement and military or para-military operations, where even if the individuals thought that they had a reasonable grasp on the situation they still found themselves surprised and/or put at a disadvantage by others. In a situation where a passenger or crew either develops jump sickness or whether its just a passenger or crew member intent on doing others harm it may well be that the first sign that they are a threat to you is when they incapacitate you (or worse).

As such, I’m not sure that you could always be assured of having the upper hand in such a situation. Overall, part of the reason that I brought up the potential for contracting an illness was that when I was younger I kind remember how early astronauts were initially confined for awhile because of uncertainties of what, if anything they may have been exposed to. As such, I kind of wondered whether in a setting like Traveller where you may travel to a wide variety of “ecospheres” whether the threat of contracting something you may not be prepared for may be even worse (especially seeing how it appears that many illnesses here on Earth mutant and change fairly regularly).

As for lifeboats in general, as I understand it the current International Space Station makes use of a Soyuz(?) capsule as an emergency lifepod just in case there is a need to evacuate, including the possibility that the station has been damaged and is decompressing and/or due to the threat of fire, and/or other risks as well.

Since Traveller products currently span a time period from just the Pre/Early Interstellar War Period (circa AD2100/ IY- 2420 or so] up to IY 1248 or so, and Tech Levels of many of the planets/systems in the various settings can range from pre-historic, through modern day Earth to highly advanced then I would kind of suspect that while some stuff may be super high tech and all not everything will be, further making me suspect that lifeboats/lifepods will be present in some form in a lot of situations.

Just some thoughts

PF
 
Last edited:
...5 mph bumpers and padded dashboards don't cost a merchant several thousand credits every trip in space that could otherwise be designed to hold passengers or cargo. Think more along the lines of semi trucks being required to carry a Mini-Cooper in the trailer in case the truck breaks down somewhere.

Hi,

With respect to the semi-truck analogy, in an area with high enough traffic density and good cell-phone or CB radio coverage, and a breathable atmosphere just being able to get out of the truck in the event of a mishap and getting clear of any leaking fuel and fire hazard may well be enough. The driver and any passengers could potentially easily use their own legs to travel any short distance necessary to get to any place nearby if necessary.

However, if traffic density is fairly low and the environment is a bit more severe, then in the event of an accident that either produces a fire or results in a fuel or cargo leak (especially if that cargo is caustic or in some other way potentially dangerous) then maybe the ability to carry water and/or warm clothing etc and/or rain gear may also be beneficial.

However, if that truck were operating in a severely hostile/toxic non-terrestrial environment then the driving and passengers may need some sort of additional protection and breathable atmosphere etc with them, in order to survive outside of their damaged vehicle.

Add on top of this distances so great and potential traffic density so thin (in some areas) that any potential rescue may take awhile, then either a longer term portable shelter or a means to move that portable shelter to a less exposed area or a "safer zone" may well be warranted, and as such a powered secondary vehicle may well be warranted in that case.

So, for this analogy, if we are talking about a semi-truck potentially operating in an area with a severely hostile environment non-compatible for supporting non-protected human life, and the traffic densities and distances for some situations where this truck is operating may be extremely great then, I would think that carrying a small vehicle of the size of a Mini or even Smart Two or Gee-Whiz could quite possibly be a very good idea.
 
part of the reason that I brought up the potential for contracting an illness was that when I was younger I kind remember how early astronauts were initially confined for awhile because of uncertainties of what, if anything they may have been exposed to. As such, I kind of wondered whether in a setting like Traveller where you may travel to a wide variety of “ecospheres” whether the threat of contracting something you may not be prepared for may be even worse (especially seeing how it appears that many illnesses here on Earth mutant and change fairly regularly).
My understanding of the Traveller setting is that such is not likely for the common Traveller going to well known worlds periodically vetted by the scout service. Systems with known issues would get a amber or red zone rating. Any system with a sudden serious issue would hopefully warn any incoming ships and not allow outgoing ships to depart and within a week could warn all nearby systems if the issue is that much of a threat.

I can see in some systems of some traveller universes that a boat of people that had exposure to an extremely dangerous and out of control illness would be disposed of quickly rather than risking further spread.
 
Last edited:
My understanding of the Traveller setting is that such is not likely for the common Traveller going to well known worlds periodically vetted by the scout service. Systems with known issues would get a amber or red zone rating. Any system with a sudden serious issue would hopefully warn any incoming ships and not allow outgoing ships to depart and within a week could warn all nearby systems if the issue is that much of a threat.

I can see in some systems of some traveller universes that a boat of people that had exposure to an extremely dangerous and out of control illness would be disposed of quickly rather than risking further spread.

Hi,

I guess an issue to me is that on Earth we don't really know all that much about a lot of the threats here right now. And since many illnesses appear to mutate and change over time (such as very forms of flu and the like) then it kind of seems to me that new threats can potentially emerge all the time.

In addition to this there seems to be some stuff in canon that suggests that the threat of serious illnesses do exist.

Specifically on one of the earliest Traveller Adventures there is a strong suggestion that an illness may have broken out on a ship and that the remaining passengers and crew may have taken refuge on one of the ship's small boats which they appear may have used as a form of lifeboat.

Beyond this there are also references in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars where various illnesses spread throughout Vilani space after contact with Terrans. as such, this suggests to me that any potential safeguards to try and prevent the spread of illnesses between worlds may not have necessarily been all that successful (at least during those periods in question).

Because of these issues and excerpts from Traveller Canon I'm kind've of the mind that the spread of illnesses between various societies and the threat of outbreaks onboard a ship seems within the basic "environment" of Traveller to me.
 
Hi,

With respect to the semi-truck analogy, in an area with high enough traffic density and good cell-phone or CB radio coverage, and a breathable atmosphere just being able to get out of the truck in the event of a mishap and getting clear of any leaking fuel and fire hazard may well be enough. The driver and any passengers could potentially easily use their own legs to travel any short distance necessary to get to any place nearby if necessary.

However, if traffic density is fairly low and the environment is a bit more severe, then in the event of an accident that either produces a fire or results in a fuel or cargo leak (especially if that cargo is caustic or in some other way potentially dangerous) then maybe the ability to carry water and/or warm clothing etc and/or rain gear may also be beneficial.

However, if that truck were operating in a severely hostile/toxic non-terrestrial environment then the driving and passengers may need some sort of additional protection and breathable atmosphere etc with them, in order to survive outside of their damaged vehicle.

Add on top of this distances so great and potential traffic density so thin (in some areas) that any potential rescue may take awhile, then either a longer term portable shelter or a means to move that portable shelter to a less exposed area or a "safer zone" may well be warranted, and as such a powered secondary vehicle may well be warranted in that case.

So, for this analogy, if we are talking about a semi-truck potentially operating in an area with a severely hostile environment non-compatible for supporting non-protected human life, and the traffic densities and distances for some situations where this truck is operating may be extremely great then, I would think that carrying a small vehicle of the size of a Mini or even Smart Two or Gee-Whiz could quite possibly be a very good idea.

The truck analogy in a hostile environment situation is problematic.
The small vehicle was put in the cargo area (trailer) and you and the passengers are in the living space (tractor) to get to it you need to leave the safety of the living space, enter the hostile environment, enter the cargo area, then enter the small vehicle and hope you don't die or contaminate anything in the process.
To eliminate the above the small vehicle needs to be put into the living space area of the tractor. Now there are there are tractors with large sleepers and you could extend the sleepers even more to fit a small vehicle but to do so you would need to extend the frame to accommodate the additional size. Larger frame + larger sleeper = higher cost
Does the risk necessitate the higher cost.
In traveller if you don't jump into a habitual(sp) your toast, unless you planned it (Scout/Explorers). Even if you jump into a "civilized" system you are are quarantined until you pass customs and that includes medical.
Besides in canon atmospheric capable ships rarely have on-board vehicles larger than Air/Rafts or ATVs exception is the Safari ship the launch is designed as a hunting platform and would be hard pressed to be used as a lifeboat. Non-atmosheric ships will have a small ship or more for use between the ship and the surface or an orbital station and prudent designer would make sure that there are enough seats for the crew and ELB for passengers to get back to the starport.

PS: a 23 person lifeboat is from an early JTAS 20dT 5 ELB + 3 seats 1G 5ton fuel & simple landing controls.

This is fuel for the fire. :D :p
 
...There is only one case I can think of where many small lifepods are better than staying aboard: being shot at. Many pods means one or two might escape...

Re-entry crisis might be another such case, but the odds of escape are still pretty low.

...My main concern is that while there is talk of places onboard being “refuges” few if any deck plans that I’m aware of really show such arrangements. ...

I believe we have already discussed the use of existing compartments as emergency refuges - store some water and so forth. I do not believe a separate dedicated refuge is necessary or wise.

...Another thought is that while you wouldn’t launch a lifeboat or lifepod in Jumpspace, evacuating to the lifeboat/lifepod and waiting for an exit from jumpspace before you launch could be a possible way to isolate yourself from what ever threat may exist on the parent vessel while supporting yourself with a completely independent life support system. ...

I do believe you've watched Alien recently.

...I actually think that there might be more to survival in space than being within a ship’s hull and/or the risk of imminent destruction. In general, if a ship were to lose its power I would suspect that there could be issues with heat loss and the impact that will have on the passengers, crew, and life support, including air handling, water recycling and food (not to mention the threats of hypothermia and water or food freezing etc). ...

As I understand it, heat loss is not the issue; it's the lack of heat loss that creates problems.


...
As such to me it would seem that, independent backup emergency systems would be warranted and if those back up emergency systems were all bundled into a form such as lifeboat(s)/lifepod(s) which could be detached in the event that it is necessary may well be a very good idea, particularly if you are potentially in range of a habitable planet, satellite or disused facility that you otherwise could not make it to safely otherwise (including de-orbit if necessary). ...

You clearly want lifeboats very badly. Please don't take any of this as saying you shouldn't have them in your own TU.

Your ship's power plant fails. In CT, you have 1 to 6 days of battery power. In MT, you have whatever backup was designed into the ship (I like solar and a bit of battery); if the gamemaster knows Starship Operator's Manual and is generous, he might give you a couple weeks off the power plant's startup batteries. Help will either arrive in that time, or help is not coming. If help is not coming, well that's the time to want a boat, 'cause you're on your own.

It takes a very special situation for a merchant to be without help. Free traders might find themselves in that situation, but they're too small for a boat - though a captain could buy a small one and store it in the cargo bay. Other merchants will be going from one port to another, help well within reach. Warships - actually, almost all have a boat or more for just such an occasion.

...A big issue here to me is “what sick bay and medical personnel” are we talking about. ... For some particularly virulent currently known diseases masks and gloves may not be enough and as such I wouldn’t be surprised if similar situations may not be possible with any illnesses that may be contracted on other worlds as well. Add to this that since many ships do not appear to have a separate sick bay, that kind of makes me wonder whether confining a sick person to their stateroom would make a whole lot of difference to controlling an illness since there does not appear to be any indication that the staterooms don’t actually share life support systems. ...

I can go on at length and in great detail about disease transmission and infection control procedures, but the real bottom line is that there's absolutely nothing that crowding potentially infected people onto a boat is going to do to make the situation better, and three souls huddled in an escape pod hiding from an epidemic, any one of whom might actually be infected, is not an improvement - it's a recipe for a panic attack. A ship in space is not going to have the resources to tell who is infected but hasn't yet shown symptoms, certainly not if they're dealing with a disease that far above their experience.

...And for ships on well traveled routes, perhaps a lifeboat/lifepod may not be the best solution for that particular ship. However, since Traveller has pretty muchly postulated since the early days that some systems may be a bit off the beaten path, that there are threats to a small independent ship ranging from terrorists, pirates, and thieves etc, and that many private and commercial ships are armed then in keeping with the modern non-fighter craft analogy operations in such situations may be that a “parachute” or other lifesaving device would be warranted. ...

I'm going to trust that you're not talking about using lifeboats while the pirates are shooting at you. Yes, it may be that a “parachute” is warranted. Now all that is needed is to find the situation where it is in fact warranted. So far, we're limited to situations involving military ships who are for some reason alone or separated from their usual support, and civilian ships who for some reason happen to be pursuing activities in systems where there's no available rescue.

...A big issue here would be whether you become aware of a potential threat in order to act, or whether the threat ends up surprising you. ... As such, I’m not sure that you could always be assured of having the upper hand in such a situation.

"You" are one member of a crew that consists at minimum of a pilot, engineer, steward, medic, and probably a navigator. "You" control the ship's computer, which most likely has an antihijack program and certainly controls the iris ports, the atmosphere controls, the gravitics systems and so forth. "You" have access to the ship's locker, which likely includes shotguns, snub pistols, body armor and, should you decide to play with the ship's atmosphere to disable or inconvenience a violent person, vacc suits. Unless your opponent is a very skilled and well-equipped group of hijackers or the antagonist from Alien, you have the upper hand. IF your opponent is a very skilled and well-equipped group of hijackers or the antagonist from Alien, then your ship, crew, and so forth still give you a fighting chance.

...Overall, part of the reason that I brought up the potential for contracting an illness was that when I was younger I kind remember how early astronauts were initially confined for awhile because of uncertainties of what, if anything they may have been exposed to. As such, I kind of wondered whether in a setting like Traveller where you may travel to a wide variety of “ecospheres” whether the threat of contracting something you may not be prepared for may be even worse (especially seeing how it appears that many illnesses here on Earth mutant and change fairly regularly)....

Maybe, but you still haven't established why having potentially infected people crowd into lifeboats and lifepods is better than having everyone retreat to rescue balls and vacc suits within the ship.
 
The truck analogy in a hostile environment situation is problematic.
The small vehicle was put in the cargo area (trailer) and you and the passengers are in the living space (tractor) to get to it you need to leave the safety of the living space, enter the hostile environment, enter the cargo area, then enter the small vehicle and hope you don't die or contaminate anything in the process.
To eliminate the above the small vehicle needs to be put into the living space area of the tractor. Now there are there are tractors with large sleepers and you could extend the sleepers even more to fit a small vehicle but to do so you would need to extend the frame to accommodate the additional size. Larger frame + larger sleeper = higher cost
Does the risk necessitate the higher cost.
In traveller if you don't jump into a habitual(sp) your toast, unless you planned it (Scout/Explorers). Even if you jump into a "civilized" system you are are quarantined until you pass customs and that includes medical.
Besides in canon atmospheric capable ships rarely have on-board vehicles larger than Air/Rafts or ATVs exception is the Safari ship the launch is designed as a hunting platform and would be hard pressed to be used as a lifeboat. Non-atmosheric ships will have a small ship or more for use between the ship and the surface or an orbital station and prudent designer would make sure that there are enough seats for the crew and ELB for passengers to get back to the starport.

PS: a 23 person lifeboat is from an early JTAS 20dT 5 ELB + 3 seats 1G 5ton fuel & simple landing controls.

This is fuel for the fire. :D :p

Hi,

Or, since the vehicle will have to be specially configured for operating in a hostile environment anyway, this specialization can also include providing a direct access from the main cabin to the emergency vehicle. :)
 
...I believe we have already discussed the use of existing compartments as emergency refuges - store some water and so forth. I do not believe a separate dedicated refuge is necessary or wise.

Hi,

A big issue here to me is that water and air recycling etc may not be self contained into the single space. Specifically, I would suspect that (especially on smaller ships) the air and water reprocessing etc would be shared among all staterooms and adjacent commons spaces. As such, confining yourself to a single space may not really serve all that well as a refuge.

I do believe you've watched Alien recently.

No, not really. I’ve just been trying to brainstorm between stuff in Traveller canon, movies and TV show episodes that I’ve seen and stuff that I’ve read or recall about the existing space program etc.

As I understand it, heat loss is not the issue; it's the lack of heat loss that creates problems.

I don’t believe that to be the case (but I will look into it further).

You clearly want lifeboats very badly. Please don't take any of this as saying you shouldn't have them in your own TU.

Not necessarily. To be honest, although they aren’t really required by the rules, I think lifeboats of some sort already exist in Traveller in the form of the small craft that many vessels carry. A lot of the discussion here, to me at least, is whether they are the best solution for all vessels and/or whether alternate options might not be suitable for some situations.
Your ship's power plant fails. In CT, you have 1 to 6 days of battery power. In MT, you have whatever backup was designed into the ship (I like solar and a bit of battery); if the gamemaster knows Starship Operator's Manual and is generous, he might give you a couple weeks off the power plant's startup batteries. Help will either arrive in that time, or help is not coming. If help is not coming, well that's the time to want a boat, 'cause you're on your own.

One to six days may not be anywhere near enough time for some vessels in many situations.

It takes a very special situation for a merchant to be without help. Free traders might find themselves in that situation, but they're too small for a boat - though a captain could buy a small one and store it in the cargo bay. Other merchants will be going from one port to another, help well within reach. Warships - actually, almost all have a boat or more for just such an occasion.

I would think that there could be many situations where a group’s ship is not operating as a conventional merchant ship. A Noble with a Yacht for instance may likely not be tied to having to tramp about like a ‘merchant’ ship, nor would an adventuring party with a Safari Ship. I could easily see these type vessels as sometimes calling on out of the way locales as the need/desire arises. Additionally, any party on an adventure could easily be chartered by a Patron to go off the beaten path in search of some artifact or such.

Add to this that in the Traveller universe you may also have exploratory ships (searching for new mining locales for exotic minerals in as yet un mined places and such as well as crew transports and cargo haulers serving out of the way mines, refineries and other such operations, plus maybe even large “tankers” skimming gas giants and then transporting that fuel to refineries near an in-system high-port for use by incoming and outgoing vessels, then it seems to me that there may be a fair bit of potential for traffic other than just typical “merchant” type operations.

I can go on at length and in great detail about disease transmission and infection control procedures, but the real bottom line is that there's absolutely nothing that crowding potentially infected people onto a boat is going to do to make the situation better, and three souls huddled in an escape pod hiding from an epidemic, any one of whom might actually be infected, is not an improvement - it's a recipe for a panic attack. A ship in space is not going to have the resources to tell who is infected but hasn't yet shown symptoms, certainly not if they're dealing with a disease that far above their experience.

Whatever the possibilities may be, just such a situation is hinted at in one of the earliest Traveller adventures and if you are in a singular enclosed “environment in the vast emptiness of space, having an alternate means of escape would seem to offer some benefits.

Overall it does seem to be Traveller canon that diseases (some very serious) have been spread through contact between different civilizations and it also appears to be canon that there is a strong possibility that in at least one adventure the individuals onboard a vessels may have taken to a ship’s small craft to escape an outbreak of an illness on a vessel, so whether anyone thinks it’s a good idea to do so or not doesn’t mean it might not happen or that others may not think otherwise.

On top of all this is also an area that no one appears to have addressed yet of the sentient computer “Viruses” of TNE. Although I’m not real familiar with TNE all that much, in such a situation, I could potentially see that some individuals may have considered trying to include a separate “fully self-contained” escape craft onboard their vessel in that event that anything happens to their primary vessel they might have a chance at escape. Such a situation would likely require trying to configure the parent ship and small craft in such a way that they do not have any direct electrical or electronic connectivity, but rather all contact and releases etc are fully manually actuated etc. But, such a system would seem to me something that I would have looked into if I had done any TNE gaming.

I'm going to trust that you're not talking about using lifeboats while the pirates are shooting at you. Yes, it may be that a “parachute” is warranted. Now all that is needed is to find the situation where it is in fact warranted. So far, we're limited to situations involving military ships who are for some reason alone or separated from their usual support, and civilian ships who for some reason happen to be pursuing activities in systems where there's no available rescue.

Using the real world as an example, Piracy can take on many forms other than the iconic “a ship arrives and threatens to attack unless you surrender” image. Someone intent on taking your ship, cargo or passengers could come onboard posing as another passenger (or group of passengers) who try and take over your ship and have you divert to a location in your target system where your passengers of=r cargo could be offloaded. Their intent may just be your ship, or your cargo, or perhaps even ransom of any of the above and/or someone onboard. They may want your ship just for parts, taking it to a “chop shop” or they may just want it for a single “drug/contraband run” or even for use in a terrorist plot.

Whatever their intent and modus of operations there could be numerous situations where, in the event of someone trying to take over a ship you may either have to flee and/or the individuals taking over the ship, whether they are mutineers, terrorists, freedom fighters, or just thieves decide to ‘put you in a long boat’ rather than spacing you (similar to how the HMS Bounty mutineers put the Captain and loyalists into a longboat and set them on their way in that event).

"You" are one member of a crew that consists at minimum of a pilot, engineer, steward, medic, and probably a navigator. "You" control the ship's computer, which most likely has an antihijack program and certainly controls the iris ports, the atmosphere controls, the gravitics systems and so forth. "You" have access to the ship's locker, which likely includes shotguns, snub pistols, body armor and, should you decide to play with the ship's atmosphere to disable or inconvenience a violent person, vacc suits. Unless your opponent is a very skilled and well-equipped group of hijackers or the antagonist from Alien, you have the upper hand. IF your opponent is a very skilled and well-equipped group of hijackers or the antagonist from Alien, then your ship, crew, and so forth still give you a fighting chance.

If I am recalling correctly from CT, an anti-hijack program only runs when loaded and its is not always loaded at all times. Beyond this, there is also the possibility of a crew member being part of the take over attempt. Specifically I believe mutinies are a part of Traveller Canon with one of the ships in the Traders & Gunboats Supplement (I think) being said to have been laid out specifically to segregate officers and crew to help prevent such type of incidents. Additionally, since we know from Canon that the TNE sentient Virus can overwrite and overwhelm such defenses I would suspect that a talented criminal with computer skills could potentially try and do something similar.

As for having the upper hand a lot will likely depend on how prepared you may be. If your ship has a relatively small crew there may be periods where only one crew member may be on duty at a time. By watching and waiting acting when this single crew member (or two) may inadvertently drop his/their guard a group of criminals may be able to get the drop on the crew. Similar events happen in the real world with even some of the places that you would think would be highly protected (such as banks, art galleries, and the homes of wealthy individuals) suffering thefts, kidnappings and the like.
 
PS. To the above. The original post and my response was too long to post as a single entry, so here is one additional part.

Maybe, but you still haven't established why having potentially infected people crowd into lifeboats and lifepods is better than having everyone retreat to rescue balls and vacc suits within the ship.

If an illness has been seen to have spread from victim to victim despite the use of protective clothing and air masks etc, and the means by which the illness is spreading is not clear, and if there is the fear that whatever is assisting in its spread may already seeped into the ship’s life support systems such as the air-handling systems and water supply, then to me I could see a desire to try and segregate yourself as far from that as possible and if this means completely leaving the ship then to me I could see how that may be what happens.
 
As I understand it, heat loss is not the issue; it's the lack of heat loss that creates problems.

The issue relates to the way heat transport occurs.

Basic Thermodynamics: Any time you have a difference in temperature between two regimes, you will have a transfer of heat from the hotter regime (cooling it) to the colder regime (warming it up) as they seek a thermal equilibrium point. The greater the difference, the quicker the heat transfer occurs (so it slows as they approach equilibrium). In space (because it is vast), the ship will tend to cool down to the temperature of the local region of deep space over time.

There are two ways that heat transport occurs:

1) Convective: The molecules of two substances with different temperatures (in contact with each other) transfer heat directly by collisions;

2) Radiative: The material radiates electromagnetic radiation away, the wavelength of which depends upon the exact temperature (e.g. at room temperature, it is Infra-Red; the left over heat from the Big Bang (2.7 K) is in the microwave band; heat a bar of metal to several thousand degrees, it will begin to radiate in the visible spectrum as the temperature increases (infrared - red - orange - yellow, etc.).

Convection is a much more efficient means of heat transport than radiation.

In space, convection cannot occur (i.e. there is no substance, (like an atmosphere) surrounding the ship to carry heat away), so all heat transport is via radiation. This means that it will take longer for the ship to cool down than if it were immersed in some type of fluid medium that was 2.7 K temperature. Further, if the ship has equipment on board (e.g. the Power Plant), that is generating heat, it will be all that more difficult for the ship to dissipate heat than if it had no heat-producing components inside.

Basically, when you have heat generating components within the ship, they will heat the interior to a higher temperature than they otherwise would be able to if there were some type of convective material surrounding the ship to carry heat away. So yes, heat can build up within the ship, which is a serious naval architecture problem to address (radiator fins with large surface area is one solution).

But the ship will eventually cool down if there is no heat generating equipment operating.
 
Last edited:
A few things to understand about the "refuge" concept:

1) It is not intended to be comfortable.
2) It is not intended to be permanent.

On a ship with multiple compartments, you can create a refuge by stocking each compartment with a couple of flashlights, a few gallons of water in squeeze bulbs, a few packages of tasty Mystery-food Newtons - or Soylents, if you're into that sort of thing - and a box of Glad-brand zero-G toilet baggies to collect urinary and, ummm, "other" wastes. Maybe a couple of rolls of paper towels - folk aren't used to doing things that way, never know what you might need to clean up. And, maybe a curtain for those who demand privacy; you get the idea. If you're a high-end passenger liner, you might have better provisions - a little emergency reactor to power the grav system and the plumbing and so forth. If you're the typical Subsidized Liner, it's the Glad bags for you and be glad you've got them. :rofl:

You don't expect to be in a refuge for more than a couple of days in normal space - a week at the outside if we're dealing with a life support failure or a pressure loss while in jump. If help hasn't arrived in that time, odds are it's just not coming and you'd better get the thing fixed and to port on your own or get off.

Now, fun with math:
The typical person takes in about 500 ml in a breath, assuming he's not doing anything strenuous. He inhales 21% O2, exhales around 16%, and he does that between 12 and 18 times a minute, depending on your source and certain individual factors. In other words, he's breathing about 6 to 9 liters of air a minute.

The 1-person stateroom alotment is 4dT - 54 cubic kiloliters. 54 thousand liters. In other words, 6000 to 9000 minutes of air at 1 atmosphere. 4 to 6 day's worth. It can actually run to twice that before the CO2 you're breathing out starts accumulating to dangerous levels - you'll actually hit problems from the CO2 before you deplete the O2 enough to hurt you. (Note that "dangerous" does not equal "unsafe". CO2 starts being unsafe at rather low levels long before it reaches dangerous levels; possible long-term effects. However, the point is to survive - long-term effects are for the doctors to deal with later.)

Now, of course, the stateroom alotment is not one big open airspace (unless you're K'Kree). Maybe as much as a third of it is equipment in the ceilings and floor, furniture in the room, walls and so forth. Still, there's a good 2 or 3 days breathing air in the typical 1-person allotment. Lose half the ship and crowd everyone into the other half, you've STILL got a day or two without any functioning life support system at all. And, odds are you've got a functioning life support system - good bet that each discrete volume bounded by bulkheads has it's own life support system because there's no reason to build ships with internal bulkheads against pressure loss if the entire life support system goes out with one compartment.

So, your "refuge" can consist of whatever part of the ship is still holding air pressure, the life support system that serves it, whatever emergency power is serving it, and an airtight chest containing the aforementioned water, Newtons, Glad bags and so forth. The only part that requires real imagination is coming up with a way to get in and out without losing air, and we've already discussed some strategies for that based on available Traveller tech.
 
As to disease:

Well, if you've managed to let the Andromeda Strain aboard, there's not much for it. It's most likely going to come in with you into the lifeboat, and you're most likely going to die. However, unless the Imperium has actually encountered the Andromeda Strain, it's not likely to order builders to add lifeboats to merchant ships on the possibility that it might encounter an Andromeda Strain during their routine traffic. Exploration ships maybe, but there's already adequate reason to have a lifeboat on an exploration ship: they could run into trouble somewhere where there's no help to be found.

Disease tends to follow certain broad, umm, "rules". One of them is that if they infect you, they tend to either show symptoms quick or they take their sweet time about it. If they show quick, isolating them is easy - isolate the people who show symptoms and anyone who's had contact with them, possibly including medical personnel. As we've discussed the issue with refuges, it immediately becomes apparent that you can isolate one section of a ship from the other sections if need be. At the first sign of a quick disease, quarantine is implemented and the separate parts of the ship isolated from each other - perhaps the passengers and crew even confined to their rooms or ordered into vac suits and rescue balls. Fast-show diseases tend to burn themselves out fast. But, yes, the pilot may find himself trapped on his bridge eating emergency rations from the emergency kit kept there for just such an occasion.

If they take their sweet time, that's when you have the problem: they could spread from you to the next guy to the guy after him and the guy after him before you start showing symptoms. You may not even realize there's a disease until half the passengers are infected, and then you've got no way to figure out who all had contact with whom and who might be infected. Retreat to the lifeboat, there's very good odds you'll take the disease with you.

Your problem is that a ship is a very small environment. Something slow enough to spread throughout the ship isn't all that unlikely - but if its slow enough for that, then its slow enough to follow you into the lifeboat; some nonsymptomatic fellow will turn out to be infected. Something fast enough that you know who is and who is not infected, that you can retreat into the lifeboat with some hope that it doesn't follow you - well, it's also fast enough that implementing an immediate and full quarantine throughout the ship will keep it from spreading beyond the affected sections. The same structure that makes refuges possible makes quarantine effective - unless this buggie can burrow through bulkheads, in which case it's in your lifeboat.
 
As to disease:

Well, if you've managed to let the Andromeda Strain aboard, there's not much for it. It's most likely going to come in with you into the lifeboat, and you're most likely going to die. However, unless the Imperium has actually encountered the Andromeda Strain, it's not likely to order builders to add lifeboats to merchant ships on the possibility that it might encounter an Andromeda Strain during their routine traffic. Exploration ships maybe, but there's already adequate reason to have a lifeboat on an exploration ship: they could run into trouble somewhere where there's no help to be found.

Disease tends to follow certain broad, umm, "rules". One of them is that if they infect you, they tend to either show symptoms quick or they take their sweet time about it. If they show quick, isolating them is easy - isolate the people who show symptoms and anyone who's had contact with them, possibly including medical personnel. As we've discussed the issue with refuges, it immediately becomes apparent that you can isolate one section of a ship from the other sections if need be. At the first sign of a quick disease, quarantine is implemented and the separate parts of the ship isolated from each other - perhaps the passengers and crew even confined to their rooms or ordered into vac suits and rescue balls. Fast-show diseases tend to burn themselves out fast. But, yes, the pilot may find himself trapped on his bridge eating emergency rations from the emergency kit kept there for just such an occasion.

If they take their sweet time, that's when you have the problem: they could spread from you to the next guy to the guy after him and the guy after him before you start showing symptoms. You may not even realize there's a disease until half the passengers are infected, and then you've got no way to figure out who all had contact with whom and who might be infected. Retreat to the lifeboat, there's very good odds you'll take the disease with you.

Your problem is that a ship is a very small environment. Something slow enough to spread throughout the ship isn't all that unlikely - but if its slow enough for that, then its slow enough to follow you into the lifeboat; some nonsymptomatic fellow will turn out to be infected. Something fast enough that you know who is and who is not infected, that you can retreat into the lifeboat with some hope that it doesn't follow you - well, it's also fast enough that implementing an immediate and full quarantine throughout the ship will keep it from spreading beyond the affected sections. The same structure that makes refuges possible makes quarantine effective - unless this buggie can burrow through bulkheads, in which case it's in your lifeboat.

Hi,

Actually, as I understand it, it is possible for some people to be carriers of disease but never show signs of illness (such as the woman known as Typhoid Mary, etc).

Overall though, as I understand it, its part of Canon that there is an adventure where a derelict ship is encountered that appears to have been abandoned (in one of the ship's boats) by its previous passengers and crew, so whether or not anyone thinks it is a good idea to have done so, to me it appears that such things may well be expected to happen in Traveller type settings.
 
Overall though, as I understand it, its part of Canon that there is an adventure where a derelict ship is encountered that appears to have been abandoned (in one of the ship's boats) by its previous passengers and crew, so whether or not anyone thinks it is a good idea to have done so, to me it appears that such things may well be expected to happen in Traveller type settings.
It's not that there is NEVER going to be a situation where leaving a spaceship in a ship's boat is a good idea. The question is, is the likelihood of such a situation cropping up high enough to warrant the costs of carrying special lifeboats along solely in case one does?


Hans
 
A few things to understand about the "refuge" concept:

....

Hi,

Overall I am not opposed to the concept of a refuge, and in some cases for some ships in some specific trade or operation I suspect that they may be the best solution. My main concern is that it doesn't really seem to me that a lot of the existing deck plans really demonstrate that this is what's intended.

Specifically, while a lot of deckplans appear to differentiate between thick, heavy bulkheads in some locations, and thinner, lighter bulkheads in other areas, its unclear whether the lighter bulkheads can withstand a the pressure differential of being under pressure on one side and being in vacuum on the other, as well as whether the "sliding doors" typically shown in some of these lighter bulkheads are actually meant to be "air tight".

As such on some ships it appears that you may have a relatively large "passenger", crew" or "cargo" space whose internal subdivisions (if any) are oft his lighter structure, while the adjacent spaces (such as the bridge or engine rooms) while separated by heavier (presumably) airtight structure and iris valves or hatches may not really have adequate space within them accommodate all the passengers and crew in the event that the airtight integrity of their living spaces has been breached.

In addition to this, while the use of "campsite like facilities" can be used for waste management (for awhile) many/most of these spaces really don't appear to show any form of fresh water supply in them which to me kind of seems problematic. And I'm not fully sure how things may be impacted in the event of loss of "grav plates".

On a side note, to be honest, having a "deck head' type fresher in way of the bridge doesn't really seem like a bad idea anyway and I've tried to include some on may of my deck plans, since that way whoever is on duty at the type wouldn't have to travel very far from his/her station in the event that he/she has to use the facilities.
 
Specifically, while a lot of deckplans appear to differentiate between thick, heavy bulkheads in some locations, and thinner, lighter bulkheads in other areas, its unclear whether the lighter bulkheads can withstand a the pressure differential of being under pressure on one side and being in vacuum on the other, as well as whether the "sliding doors" typically shown in some of these lighter bulkheads are actually meant to be "air tight".

I've always assumed that the sliding doors are not airtight. Indeed, I assume that the thin walls are movable, although I haven't decided if they can be moved by the crew alone or if a yard or a repair facility is needed.


Hans
 
I've always assumed that the sliding doors are not airtight. Indeed, I assume that the thin walls are movable, although I haven't decided if they can be moved by the crew alone or if a yard or a repair facility is needed.


Hans

Thanks for the info.

PF
 
I've always assumed that the sliding doors are not airtight. Indeed, I assume that the thin walls are movable, although I haven't decided if they can be moved by the crew alone or if a yard or a repair facility is needed.


Hans

In Supp7, the thinner wal markings are declared non air tight, as are sliding doors.

I strongly suspect that they can be moved by crew with mechanical skill outside the shop (doors require electronic as well). See the JTAS article on virushi.
 
In Supp7, the thinner wal markings are declared non air tight, as are sliding doors.

I strongly suspect that they can be moved by crew with mechanical skill outside the shop (doors require electronic as well). See the JTAS article on virushi.

I do declare, Wil, I think we actually agree on something here. :eek:


Hans
 
Hi,

Actually, as I understand it, it is possible for some people to be carriers of disease but never show signs of illness (such as the woman known as Typhoid Mary, etc). ...

Yes, Some diseases have carriers. These are typically people who have been infected by a disease whose bodies are able to contain the disease but not to eradicate it. It's also possible for some people to harbor a disease without becoming infected by it. That's something doctors need to be very careful about, having disease organisms on their hands or hiding under their nails or some such, where it can't cross the skin barrier to harm the doctor but it most certainly can get into the wound the doctor creates while operating on someone. It's why they wash and glove.

...Overall though, as I understand it, its part of Canon that there is an adventure where a derelict ship is encountered that appears to have been abandoned (in one of the ship's boats) by its previous passengers and crew, so whether or not anyone thinks it is a good idea to have done so, to me it appears that such things may well be expected to happen in Traveller type settings.

Double Adventure 1a, Annic Nova (also featured in JTAS #1) is the story of the players' discovery of a derelict ship. On boarding the ship, they discover:
Spoiler:
bodies in some of the staterooms, one stateroom that has been incinerated, several other staterooms that look like they were occupied, and a puzzle - where are the missing occupants? The ship is undamaged and with living spaces under normal pressure. The ship has two pinnaces positioned to double as drives and a centerline port for a pinnace, or at least a small craft with a front identical to the pinnace; it's not clear whether the port is to serve the existing pinnaces or to serve a third, missing craft of some sort. If the latter, then yes, someone abandoned the ship in a small craft - and the absence of the other occupants strongly implies someone left somehow. When one of the players starts showing signs of illness, it becomes clear what happened to the deceased and why the missing occupants may have departed.


I think we need to be clear. The question is not whether crew and passengers might grab a handy boat to escape a plague ship. Folk in a panic will grab any straw, no matter how slim the chances. The question is whether the designers would include boats for that purpose. They wouldn't; a lifeboat doesn't actually offer much of a chance in a plague situation. It's a Masque of the Red Death scenario. In fact, it offers the risk that the fleeing passengers will instead transmit the contagion to some hapless world. You do NOT want passengers leaving a plague ship in an uncontrolled manner.
 
Back
Top