Empire of Solee: Strawman, menace, or rival power

[Liam Devlin]

Okay here we go again...ready folks? My favorite topic, maybe not yours..but a Starpilot post to my other topic (Jingoism/RC) prompted me to place this up next for perusal, debate, and discussion.

Is SOlee's "Star Empire" just another Strawman for the RC to kick over (in the vein "we came/ we saw, we kicked its butt, what do we get?" gaming style--SciFi-Monty haul); is it a menace to the RC?; Or is it a viable rival power, whose "imperialism" places it at idealistic cross purposes of the RC (and thus must be opposed in the framed thought process of GDW-DN's version of events).

Second question: Does/did the RC have to go to war with Solee?

Thirdly: Why was the lack of any diplomatic figure in the RC a hindrance rather than an asset in the road to war?

Enquiring heretics wanna know your thoughts!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Uh hu. I see...Gonna be one of those Liam-you go first things" again. 'Kay, YOU asked for it!

#1)"Is SOlee's "Star Empire" just another Strawman for the RC to kick over (in the vein "we came/ we saw, we kicked its butt, what do we get?" gaming style--SciFi-Monty haul); is it a menace to the RC?; Or is it a viable rival power, whose "imperialism" places it at idealistic cross purposes of the RC (and thus must be opposed in the framed thought process of GDW-DN's version of events).'

Liam's HO: Part one of that--it was set up that way BY DN-GDW. As it stood, not much of one. But if one applies the Wilds Militaries rules chart from PoT to Solee, those 6 major and 20 smaller ships are but 9,000 men, and does not accurately refelct the minimum 1% military a pop 8 planet of 700 million should have. or=7 million men total COACC, Sea, Land, Space.
Done the RIGHT way: C-port 06% times,pop 8 modifier of .25, times TL-9/10 modifier of .5, times the 1% total of Solee's Armed forces = 52,500 personnel in space force, or 17 major, 51 smaller ships TOTAL. BUT if only those 6 and 20 are jump capable, the rest are operational but system bound, as other RCNavy System Navy forces have shown to be (1/3 rule of total are Jump ships).
Using Prewar TCS figures, the Solomani thus had 58 major/ 174 smaller ships there when Virus hit. Thats a hell of a boneyard of spare parts, Hmm?
That makes her a menace, and a viable interstellar wannabe power.

#2)"Second question: Does/did the RC have to go to war with Solee?'

Not necessarily, but the GDW-DN pictured script casts them into this warlike imperialism mode that cuts across the RCES thought processes of bad former Final War memories. Nevermind the gimmick was a sell-me advertisement for "Battle Rider" the boxed board game set. (Yes, I bought it too!). Now Mr Griffen intended to take his protest to the level of putting a more Human face to the Solee to oppose the hypocrisy of the "Reformed Coalition", but wound up doing the Regency instead (and a mighty good job too, may I add). Which leads to the last question...

#3)"Thirdly: Why was the lack of any diplomatic figure in the RC a hindrance rather than an asset in the road to war?

IMHO, yes. The RCSA was a bureaucrats dream (and a nightmare towards getting things accomplished in asteady fashion), and a decentralized government that had a hard time getting unity for action done from time to time(like the infamous Ship Bill)!
Solee, IMTU, and by canon, had a foreign service, ambassadors, etc. and USED them in a unified fashion. Okay, their Shenk campign got off to a shaky start, and they started to learn you can't just grab up a balkanized world like that, and call it yours."(Hindahl/ Marcena). Kmak and Dothan were examples of the diplomatic angle, and IMTU, so was their approach to Mueller.
The RC treated every planet differently, had no cohesion/ cohesive overall plan.

And yet the RC wins. Why? Attrition in ship losses, and more starship repair and building facilities than SOlee had. SImple.

Any takers out there?

 

[T. Foster]

My copy of PoT is still in storage and I haven't even looked at it since c. 1996, but the impression I always had was that the conflict with Solee was going to be long and tough, and that the only way the RC was going to be able to win it was by reorganizing, shifting their focus, becoming more centralized and efficient. And, furthermore, once the conflict had been won and the Solee worlds absorbed into the RC sphere, that would further alter the shape and personality of the RC.

From this point on the split between the pragmatic bureaucrats of the RC govt. and the maverick idealists of RCES would become increasingly pronounced (beyond what we already see in PoT), and the 'tragic heroes' of RCES would begin to see that the ideals they were fighting for were no longer necessarily compatible with the ideals of those in charge at home. With time, further contact with the Regency, and in response to whatever lies behind the Black Curtain, this split continue to widen, the RCES would eventually find their position untenable, and off they would go, leaving Charted Space right on schedule.

 

[Arsulon]

1) I believe Solee was set up as a straw-man for the RC to knock over. A great deal of ink is wasted in the various TNE supplements trying to convince the reader that RC's suppossed "moral vision" for the universe is right and just. They are justified to the reader by simple-minded comparisons to the eventual fall of the Third Imperium, e.g. "Well if you think WE'RE wrong just look at what the imperials did!" Oh, the sophistication. That justifies their birth, but in order to justify their continued existence the RC must confront and emasculate their evil father figure (in order to become the father/man): since the Imperium is gone, enter a stellar polity that represents the WORST of what imperial society represented. They have NOBLES (shudder!) They have an EMPRESS (eek!) who makes decisions without holding a referendum! They use BAD ships (i.e. imperial vessels.) They practice slavery/forced labour (which the Imperium never did, but oddly a lot of TNE material seems to imply they did.) They have WARS! It's just enough to make you wet your yellow and black pajamas. So, the RC has no choice but to defeat Solee in order to justify their existence.
What's that you say? Solee has a bigger and better navy? It doesn't matter. Dave Nilsen wasn't dealing in probabilities: he was "weaving a story." At the end of "Vampire Fleets" we're quite simply told, whether we like it or not, that the RC's pet viruses (e.g. Sandman) would be instrumental in the defeat of Solee: I'm not sure how this was supposed to happen since the book indicates the RC's virus-ships simply provide a bonus to the MFDs. Oh well: grit your teeth and think of the Imperium all you gearheads. I imagine the conflict would have started on the "hearts and minds" level with the RC winning over the inhabitants of the various Solee contested worlds. You will note that Solee had been set up to fail here: they're purposely characterized as being bogged down in counter-insurgency actions (e.g. "Freedom's Call" scenario in Striker II.) Once popular sentiment had turned against the Empress due to these failed operations she would have been asassinated and replaced by a ham-fisted junta that launches an inefficient, ill-timed invasion of the RC.
Likewise, the RC HAS to win because of the historical paralells. The Reformation Coalition is nothing like the actual vikings of old: any superficial resemblance to their mode of operation can be dismissed. Nilsen is getting the "star viking" term from H. Beam Piper's novel of the same name, which depicts a group of people infinitely more interesting than the RC. Anyway, the RC's closest historical paralell seems to be Classical Greece. It is an area inhabited by like-minded, but distinct, politically indedpendant (for the most part) entities: the worlds are city states, Aubaine being Athens (the cultural and economic center) and Oriflamme being Sparta (they hate everybody, are efficiency freaks and are good at killing people.) That said, the inner political tensions the RC is experiencing resembles the same problems resulting from the Delian League: a mutual defense pact between the city-states, led by Athens (who controlled the treasury) and was aimed chiefly at countering the Persian Empire. Well, guess who the Persians are? If you'd asked a contemporary who'd have won, the divided, squabbling Greeks or the unified jugernaught of Persia, the answer would've been obvious. But Persia didn't win! Their sheer size defeated them at Marathon and Salamis. That, I believe, is EXACTLY what GDW had planned for Solee: the powerful Soleean empire stumbling over itself, unable to coordinate, a heroic slaughter of the Oriflammnans (i.e. Thermopylae), the masterful statesmanship of Maggart (Pericles), etc., etc. The "League" would have started fraying afterwards leaving Aubaine (Athens) and Oriflamme (Sparta) at each others throats. If the Hivers are anything, they're the gods: they're indirectly responsible for civilization but would've continued to recede into the background. Of course the RC's political tensions may have come to nothing: just as things were getting interesting a CINET article had Maggart win universal acclaim by taking off his clothing in public (demonstrating his lack of fear of assasins.) Sickening.

2) Is Solee a menace? Of course. I don't think GDW had any intention of letting them REMAIN a menace however. But realistically speaking, with a command economy expanding its markets with every conquest, their pre-war industrial and military assets, experienced officers and troops and, let's not forget, SEVERAL WORLDS THAT WOULD GIVE THEIR RIGHT ARMS TO HAVE ORDER, SECURITY, AND ACCESS TO SPACE AGAIN I honestly can't see how Solee wouldn't roll over the RC. My last point is an often overlooked one: Nilsen seemed to have the simple-minded understanding that empires expand by being as mean as possible to people. On the contrary, as most of us know, empries are often INVITED into territories they later end up administering. Memebership in an emprie holds many benefits (cultural, economic, military) to applicant states. However, the RC (and lamentably TNE) ethic dicates that member states in ANY emprie (Solee, Third Imperium) are being held by force alone. As a result, we have planetary factions fawning over the RC and trembling in fear of Solee. Why? No reason, someone's just "weaving a story."

3) The RC technically doesn't need any diplomatic staff becasue they don't recognize the right of any other state to exist. This is an exaggeration of course; however, the entire AO concept is based on the perception that there are no legitimate governments in that area and that the RC may therefore operate freely. If they encounter a government they don't get along with it must therefore be a TED and its citizens ripe for "liberation."

 

[Liam Devlin]

Mr T. Foster posted-"the impression I always had was that the conflict with Solee was going to be long and tough, and that the only way the RC was going to be able to win it was by reorganizing, shifting their focus, becoming more centralized and efficient. And, furthermore, once the conflict had been won and the Solee worlds absorbed into the RC sphere, that would further alter the shape and personality of the RC.

From this point on the split between the pragmatic bureaucrats of the RC govt. and the maverick idealists of RCES would become increasingly pronounced (beyond what we already see in PoT), and the 'tragic heroes' of RCES would begin to see that the ideals they were fighting for were no longer necessarily compatible with the ideals of those in charge at home. With time, further contact with the Regency, and in response to whatever lies behind the Black Curtain, this split continue to widen, the RCES would eventually find their position untenable, and off they would go, leaving Charted Space right on schedule.'
______________________________

Well said, Mr Foster. IMTU, that is along the lines of my thesis as well. The absorbtion of Soleean Worlds (Which I have their empire reaching the tip of Quinoid at Montero/OE, to the System worlds of Exage in SYRS, to the edge of 21 Worlds at Jrack-Layor-BONSHER, and all of Jayna (formerly Galiano) subsector, as well as the PoT worlds in Shenk they had their boots upon.
The administration of say CZERNIAK/Jayna/OE (a world I have survivng with 18Billions, TL-B, and a B-class port) and its nexus-state economy propelling the heart of the empire (like RENJ does in Sitah)alone boggles the RCSA ability to muster votes and a new form of centralized govt. MUST emerge. Not to mention integrating captured vessels from Solee into the growing RCN, and their Spacemen, once the "war" is over.
Well said, sir.

Next!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Arsulon wrote-"1) I believe Solee was set up as a straw-man for the RC to knock over. A great deal of ink is wasted in the various TNE supplements trying to convince the reader that RC's suppossed "moral vision" for the universe is right and just. They are justified to the reader by simple-minded comparisons to the eventual fall of the Third Imperium, e.g. "Well if you think WE'RE wrong just look at what the imperials did!" Oh, the sophistication. That justifies their birth, but in order to justify their continued existence the RC must confront and emasculate their evil father figure (in order to become the father/man): since the Imperium is gone, enter a stellar polity that represents the WORST of what imperial society represented. They have NOBLES (shudder!) They have an EMPRESS (eek!) who makes decisions without holding a referendum! They use BAD ships (i.e. imperial vessels.) They practice slavery/forced labour (which the Imperium never did, but oddly a lot of TNE material seems to imply they did.) They have WARS! It's just enough to make you wet your yellow and black pajamas. So, the RC has no choice but to defeat Solee in order to justify their existence.
What's that you say? Solee has a bigger and better navy? It doesn't matter. Dave Nilsen wasn't dealing in probabilities: he was "weaving a story." At the end of "Vampire Fleets" we're quite simply told, whether we like it or not, that the RC's pet viruses (e.g. Sandman) would be instrumental in the defeat of Solee: I'm not sure how this was supposed to happen since the book indicates the RC's virus-ships simply provide a bonus to the MFDs. Oh well: grit your teeth and think of the Imperium all you gearheads. I imagine the conflict would have started on the "hearts and minds" level with the RC winning over the inhabitants of the various Solee contested worlds. You will note that Solee had been set up to fail here: they're purposely characterized as being bogged down in counter-insurgency actions (e.g. "Freedom's Call" scenario in Striker II.) Once popular sentiment had turned against the Empress due to these failed operations she would have been asassinated and replaced by a ham-fisted junta that launches an inefficient, ill-timed invasion of the RC.
Likewise, the RC HAS to win because of the historical paralells. The Reformation Coalition is nothing like the actual vikings of old: any superficial resemblance to their mode of operation can be dismissed. Nilsen is getting the "star viking" term from H. Beam Piper's novel of the same name, which depicts a group of people infinitely more interesting than the RC. Anyway, the RC's closest historical paralell seems to be Classical Greece. It is an area inhabited by like-minded, but distinct, politically indedpendant (for the most part) entities: the worlds are city states, Aubaine being Athens (the cultural and economic center) and Oriflamme being Sparta (they hate everybody, are efficiency freaks and are good at killing people.) That said, the inner political tensions the RC is experiencing resembles the same problems resulting from the Delian League: a mutual defense pact between the city-states, led by Athens (who controlled the treasury) and was aimed chiefly at countering the Persian Empire. Well, guess who the Persians are? If you'd asked a contemporary who'd have won, the divided, squabbling Greeks or the unified jugernaught of Persia, the answer would've been obvious. But Persia didn't win! Their sheer size defeated them at Marathon and Salamis. That, I believe, is EXACTLY what GDW had planned for Solee: the powerful Soleean empire stumbling over itself, unable to coordinate, a heroic slaughter of the Oriflammnans (i.e. Thermopylae), the masterful statesmanship of Maggart (Pericles), etc., etc. The "League" would have started fraying afterwards leaving Aubaine (Athens) and Oriflamme (Sparta) at each others throats. If the Hivers are anything, they're the gods: they're indirectly responsible for civilization but would've continued to recede into the background. Of course the RC's political tensions may have come to nothing: just as things were getting interesting a CINET article had Maggart win universal acclaim by taking off his clothing in public (demonstrating his lack of fear of assasins.) Sickening.
____________________________
Excellent parallels with the Persians & Ancient Greeks, Arsulon. Dadgum you've hit the nail so many times I lost count in one paragraph! Agreed on the set to fail principle. The rest falls into the moral relativism that DN subjected the Traveller fandom to in "weaving a story" not making a sourcebook for a campaign.(hearkening back to Starpilot's words from another post, if I may)

__________________________________________________
2) Is Solee a menace? Of course. I don't think GDW had any intention of letting them REMAIN a menace however. But realistically speaking, with a command economy expanding its markets with every conquest, their pre-war industrial and military assets, experienced officers and troops and, let's not forget, SEVERAL WORLDS THAT WOULD GIVE THEIR RIGHT ARMS TO HAVE ORDER, SECURITY, AND ACCESS TO SPACE AGAIN I honestly can't see how Solee wouldn't roll over the RC. My last point is an often overlooked one: Nilsen seemed to have the simple-minded understanding that empires expand by being as mean as possible to people. On the contrary, as most of us know, empries are often INVITED into territories they later end up administering. Memebership in an emprie holds many benefits (cultural, economic, military) to applicant states. However, the RC (and lamentably TNE) ethic dicates that member states in ANY emprie (Solee, Third Imperium) are being held by force alone. As a result, we have planetary factions fawning over the RC and trembling in fear of Solee. Why? No reason, someone's just "weaving a story."
______________________________________
A major factor I could not ignore in my version of the events: the benefits of empire. Members of the tne-list were aghast that I would take this tack--How dare I? Well, how dare Dave Nilsen forget what makes an empire tick, run, and make people want to join? Force alone? In some cases, due to the 70-80 years of isolationism/ war/ xenophobia left from HT/Collapse... even the RC hit those stumbling blocks.
Solee for DN seemed to appear the embodiment of all the Worst things of the Imperium to toss(okay, I'll say it, regurgitate-vomit) back into our faces. But all things made of humans are flawed tis our nature. Not all of Solee is Black. As MJD alludes, their is a lot of gray. Solee is no exception. WITHOUT THE ALMIGHTY HIVERS they put together a PE with more people than the RC has at the time, using the recovery of the wilds model left by Margaret Tukera as a blueprint at the end of the Gannon book "Hard Times". No mean feat, and worthy of study. ABsorbing that many people in so short a time definitely changes the face of the RC forever.
______________________________________
3) The RC technically doesn't need any diplomatic staff becasue they don't recognize the right of any other state to exist. This is an exaggeration of course; however, the entire AO concept is based on the perception that there are no legitimate governments in that area and that the RC may therefore operate freely. If they encounter a government they don't get along with it must therefore be a TED and its citizens ripe for "liberation."
_______________________________
Therein lies the Hubris & amalgamation of Plato's "Cave", as the ancient Greeks call it. "We're morally right-the rest of you live in darkness."
OUTSTANDING, Arsulon. well thought out. We concur on all the major points. In the latter question 3, some diplomacy was used for "friendly" govt.s wishing recontact--only their was all the cohesion of an arthritic centipede imho.

Next!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Mr al duc? Care to add anything? Comments please, sir. Don't be shy.

 

[cgriffen]

Well said, Arsulon.

The Greek history parallels had never occurred to me before. It's so obvious but I didn't see it!

Speaking of straw men, Oriflamme does appear to be set up to go down like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, doesn't it? IIRC, Oriflamme was a more "pro-Imperial" type of state. They're often described as somewhat of a thorn in the Aubainians side. Convenient if they get knocked over in the process of weaving the story.

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

I must admit I never really gave the Solee much thought. It seemed to me that they were being set up to be the first major military threat to the RC but the official development of that threat was to come later. The early focus was on getting the RC out into the Wilds getting experience dealing with TEDs, recovering valuable technology for the Coalition, and dealing with the growing threats of the Guild and the Vampire fleets comming and going from Promise. I always considered these to be far more important and dangerous to the RC both immediatly and in the farther future as well. Thinking it over, I always assumed that the Solee would meet their end from a Vampire battle fleet from the Black Curtain thus highlighting the threat they pose to the growing RC. I have no proof to back this up, it is just what my instincts tell me.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Secrect Cow Level:
Thinking it over, I always assumed that the Solee would meet their end from a Vampire battle fleet from the Black Curtain thus highlighting the threat they pose to the growing RC. I have no proof to back this up, it is just what my instincts tell me.

I don't think GDW/Dave would've made such a point of creating Solee as an ideological foil to the RC if they weren't planning on using that as the basis of a real conflict. I agree that sooner or later some fledgling empire was bound to get whacked by whatever lay behind the BC, but I think that, rather than Solee, it was almost certainly going to be the Regency. Dave Nilsen more or less admitted he never liked them, they needed to be taken down somehow in order for the RC to become the dominant (human) power in the region, plus a series of disastrous defeats fits all too well with the (obvious) Regency-as-Byzantium model.

 

[Arsulon]

The historical paralell to Byzantium always worried me as well. I won't go into the various strengths of the Regency (they're all too evident) but despite them I always suspected they wouldn't be allowed to prosper, let alone put an Alkalikoi back on the throne. If the Zhos are Persians/Arabs then the RC could be reimagined as the Franks: all it would take is a manufactured crisis and we'd have the First Crusade and sack of Constantinople all over again. I agree that the BC was a likely downfall for the Regency. I imagined that the Regency would explore this area first, make contact with the like-minded Hubworlds. The Hubworlds would by this point be trying to gain first-hand intelligence about the BC but accidentily stick that first hand into a hornet's nest. The Regency charges to the rescue. Back home we have a Mahdi risen from the Zho refugee camps claiming to be motivated by an Empress Wave vision: there are popular uprisings, the Vargr gangsters supply the arms, the crackdown is construed as specism, the Aslan invade, the Sword Worlders act up and in short all hell breaks loose. Overextended, the Regency BEGS the RC for help: only their sophisticated pet viruses can deal with the horrors behind the Curtain. The war at home goes badly, emergency powers are given to the evil airstocrats and the Regency shows its true colours, thus further invalidating them as the keepers of the flame. It is necessary for the RC to morally rescue and morally re-energize the Marches by reminding all the inhabitants that we're all the same underneath, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past and to give peace a chance. I usually wake up in a cold sweat at this point.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Starpilot posted-"Speaking of straw men, Oriflamme does appear to be set up to go down like the 300 Spartans at Thermopolae, doesn't it? IIRC, Oriflamme was a more "pro-Imperial" type of state. They're often described as somewhat of a thorn in the Aubainians side. Convenient if they get knocked over in the process of weaving the story.'

_________________________________
Oriflamme as Sparta? I would think that would be the Stoic heroic laconic Balduri meself. But the analogy for eith er Centrist planet is plain, now that Arsulon has "pulled back a curtain" fer us. I've been re-reading the Persian Wars & Peloponnesian war(Thucydides).

 

[Liam Devlin]

Secret Cow level, Mr Foster's posting above answers that rather mightily:
"I don't think GDW/Dave would've made such a point of creating Solee as an ideological foil to the RC if they weren't planning on using that as the basis of a real conflict. I agree that sooner or later some fledgling empire was bound to get whacked by whatever lay behind the BC, but I think that, rather than Solee, it was almost certainly going to be the Regency. Dave Nilsen more or less admitted he never liked them, they needed to be taken down somehow in order for the RC to become the dominant (human) power in the region, plus a series of disastrous defeats fits all too well with the (obvious) Regency-as-Byzantium model.'
_______________________________________
Solee lay too close to the RC for there to be anything but an ultimate "showdown" between DN's vision of the "kinder gentler spacers" vs "Evil Imperial wannabes" (pardonnez moi, while I take an anti-nausea pill!)
The BC fleets will hammer the HUb worlds and possibly Sufren once they discover the Vamp Hwy has been "severed" in that order. MJD has alluded to Sufren getting whacked by VF's, and this also jives with my thinking.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Arsulon posted-"The historical paralell to Byzantium always worried me as well. I won't go into the various strengths of the Regency (they're all too evident) but despite them I always suspected they wouldn't be allowed to prosper, let alone put an Alkalikoi back on the throne. If the Zhos are Persians/Arabs then the RC could be reimagined as the Franks: all it would take is a manufactured crisis and we'd have the First Crusade and sack of Constantinople all over again. I agree that the BC was a likely downfall for the Regency. I imagined that the Regency would explore this area first, make contact with the like-minded Hubworlds. The Hubworlds would by this point be trying to gain first-hand intelligence about the BC but accidentily stick that first hand into a hornet's nest. The Regency charges to the rescue. Back home we have a Mahdi risen from the Zho refugee camps claiming to be motivated by an Empress Wave vision: there are popular uprisings, the Vargr gangsters supply the arms, the crackdown is construed as specism, the Aslan invade, the Sword Worlders act up and in short all hell breaks loose. Overextended, the Regency BEGS the RC for help: only their sophisticated pet viruses can deal with the horrors behind the Curtain. The war at home goes badly, emergency powers are given to the evil airstocrats and the Regency shows its true colours, thus further invalidating them as the keepers of the flame. It is necessary for the RC to morally rescue and morally re-energize the Marches by reminding all the inhabitants that we're all the same underneath, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past and to give peace a chance. I usually wake up in a cold sweat at this point."
___________________________
A nightmare shared by many who disagreed with DN, I'm afraid. Well! Shan't be having any of that shall we! Some of that maybe...(The Regency does break out from her self-isolation in 1202 and makes contact with RCES in 1206 thereabouts somewheres..
Trick is..where? How far has the RC expanded by then...MJD will enlighten us on that soon (mark off another calendar day!!!)

 

[cgriffen]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
The war at home goes badly, emergency powers are given to the evil airstocrats and the Regency shows its true colours, thus further invalidating them as the keepers of the flame. It is necessary for the RC to morally rescue and morally re-energize the Marches by reminding all the inhabitants that we're all the same underneath, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past and to give peace a chance. I usually wake up in a cold sweat at this point.

A cold sweat indeed!

Something like that was always what I imagined Dave had in mind for the Regency. If the Solee was a straw man, the Regency was a hay farm. I'm actually glad TNE didn't succeed in the market. Otherwise, we would have been subjected to the complete story. I would have gone the alternative history route rather than participate in a campaign in which the RC dutifully "saves" the rest of humanity from itself.

I realize Martin in his New Era book must remain somewhat loyal to the original storyline, but here's hoping he (with Marc's advice) can concoct a story that's a little more balanced. Okay, a LOT more balanced!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Starpilot/Mr Griffen...

May we all see a Lot better balanced plotline than what came before.
I'll drink to that, as a matter of fact, that we shall!

 

[Arsulon]

Oddly, I think the only thing that might keep my interest in an RC campaign is the continuation of the Hellenic analogy. If the RC did sucessfully blunt the Soleean advance that would signal an increase in the abuses associated with the Delian League. By the end of the conflict, Aubaine (Athens) would be able to brag that only through the inspired leadership of Maggart (Pericles) were the RC worlds able to pull together. If we've had a Thermopylae then Oriflamme has lost much of its military might through attrition (probably having sacrificed its Marine Brigade) and possibly much of its Centrist ruling class. This paves the way for the Federalist victory after Federalist victory in the Assembly: Aubani influence and cultural imperialism swells without a comensurate inrease in their responsibility to the constituent worlds (largely because the Centrist initiative for a constitution is defeated again and again.) Oriflamme turns inward as it attempts to recover but continues to push, with Baldur, for colonizing the "backside" despite protests by Aubaine that it is building its own "Centrist emprie." As diplomatic contact with other stellar polities (e.g. Solee, etc.) increases individual worlds take it on themselves to negotiate directly for trade and information: Aubaine jealously attempts to thwart this "end-run" around THEIR Assembly and increasingly comes down hard on malcontents using sanctions and other economic means. Discontented worlds begin to align with Oriflamme which, by this point, has considerable resources to draw on. The flashpoint will be one discontented world refusing to pay its Assembly dues. Aubaine, afraid of losing face, resorts to force which quickly turns ugly due to their inexperience in policing worlds. Centrist worlds are increasingly calling for Oriflamme to take action and when they finally do, it's civil war. Just as Athens and its allies duked it out with Sparta and their allies, only to mutually exhaust each other and leave a power vacuum, so too will the RC worlds. Sparta technically won the war but had no experience or desire to run an Hellenic empire: so too will Oriflamme turn inward again, pursuing their own agendas after a ham-fisted attempt at running the Assembly. This leaves the way free and clear for a Thebes to arise out of the ashes (Baldur?) introducing new tactics and technology to the field, defeating what remains of the might of Aubaine and Oriflamme, leaving the former RC worlds ripe for the plucking of some Philip or Alexander of Macedon/Massilia. Are the Macedonians the restructured Soleean Star Emprie? The Fourth Imperium? Something else? Who knows? I imagine in this scenario that the Hivers do what they, and the Olympians, do best: they watch. To them, the RC ripping itself apart would be a fascinating lab experiment; after all, they never got a chance to do a controlled study of the Imperium turning on itself. Somehow I find the idea of the Aubanis screaming to the starfish for help as Oriflammnan fire arcs down from the heavens, only to get the message back "The Federation does not intervene in the internal matters of other states (plus, violence scares us.)" immensely satisfying.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
"Oddly, I think the only thing that might keep my interest in an RC campaign is the continuation of the Hellenic analogy. If the RC did sucessfully blunt the Soleean advance that would signal an increase in the abuses associated with the Delian League. By the end of the conflict, Aubaine (Athens) would be able to brag that only through the inspired leadership of Maggart (Pericles) were the RC worlds able to pull together. If we've had a Thermopylae then Oriflamme has lost much of its military might through attrition (probably having sacrificed its Marine Brigade) and possibly much of its Centrist ruling class."
______________________________________________
IMTU, Iused the WW2 analogy. The RC is arming itself for the conflict, but Solee gets in the first blow in Shenk, and later into Oriflamme. IMTU, Its Baldur that gets hammered, then Oriflamme. Yes Oriflamme repels the Soleean TF sent there (with heavy losses, as I played it out in BR with two other gamers), but the planet gets spared the worst ravages. So IMTU outlook, I saw no loss of the Centrist party of Oriflamme.
The damage done to Baldur (destruction of the orbital C-classport, eg. and the environemntal cities below on the mainworld rallies the last of the "peacniks" to the hawk side for war.
The Hiver Federation, with its non intevention policy between states, hems a fine line and continues its convoys to the RC, in staid neutrality. It sheds light that this is between two human polities, two differing political wills of thought, not picking one side over the next for the Hiver-lovers-a bit of epiphany. Rallying to save the now doomed world of Baldur becomes the Dunkirk of the RC-Solee war. A finest hour of humanity. Again, the Hivers DO NOT intervene (shocking many Centrists, and Federalists--realpolitik).
_______________________________________________
"This paves the way for the Federalist victory after Federalist victory in the Assembly: Aubani influence and cultural imperialism swells without a comensurate inrease in their responsibility to the constituent worlds (largely because the Centrist initiative for a constitution is defeated again and again.) Oriflamme turns inward as it attempts to recover but continues to push, with Baldur, for colonizing the "backside" despite protests by Aubaine that it is building its own "Centrist emprie." As diplomatic contact with other stellar polities (e.g. Solee, etc.) increases individual worlds take it on themselves to negotiate directly for trade and information: Aubaine jealously attempts to thwart this "end-run" around THEIR Assembly and increasingly comes down hard on malcontents using sanctions and other economic means. Discontented worlds begin to align with Oriflamme which, by this point, has considerable resources to draw on. The flashpoint will be one discontented world refusing to pay its Assembly dues. Aubaine, afraid of losing face, resorts to force which quickly turns ugly due to their inexperience in policing worlds. Centrist worlds are increasingly calling for Oriflamme to take action and when they finally do, it's civil war. Just as Athens and its allies duked it out with Sparta and their allies, only to mutually exhaust each other and leave a power vacuum, so too will the RC worlds. Sparta technically won the war but had no experience or desire to run an Hellenic empire: so too will Oriflamme turn inward again, pursuing their own agendas after a ham-fisted attempt at running the Assembly. This leaves the way free and clear for a Thebes to arise out of the ashes (Baldur?) introducing new tactics and technology to the field, defeating what remains of the might of Aubaine and Oriflamme, leaving the former RC worlds ripe for the plucking of some Philip or Alexander of Macedon/Massilia."
_______________________________________________
By the time I open the war with Solee IMTU, (December 1203/ Jan 1204 in RC due to jump space time hacks and speedy word at J-2 (a six week delay) the followiung things have happened in the RC sphere:
A) planets rimwards in A, B, C subsectors of Alpha Crucis/Leonis Sector have "joined the RC" (some sixty odd worlds now are part of the Coalition, though many of the rim members are associates and will be full members by end of 1204, over a third of them however are non-voting salvage/"resource worlds"-former dead Cemetery worlds.), several have B-clas yards, three of these rimwards worlds (one in each subsector has a B-class starport, and TL-11 remnant tech level extant in 1201.All of these worlds have no gas giants btw!). These three shipyards petition for upgrades to A-class, and get approval.

B) The SHipyard Bill (which upgrades the starport building facilities of the original 22 worlds has been passed. (Winter of 1202/spring of 1203) while Promise herself is being sacked/ and Vampire Hwy severed. This means Aurora and Aubaine aren't the only A-class yards in the RC. All the B-class get upgraded to A's (Kruyters, Trybec in AUbaine; Oriflamme/Oriflamme too. with this comes a rise in tech level imtu of +1 (thanks to salvaged relic technology 1202-1204 and onwards from the "resource worlds").
Meaning Oriflamme has an A-class yard in orbit and dirtside and has returned to TL-10. Sveral with C-class yards go upgrade to B-class (TL-7+), Shenandoah is not one of them (TL-6).

C) All of the ships in PoT have been built by June of 1203, and new ones are underway. Realizing the booming economy needs help, and the "RCN fleet" is now picket watching over Promise &the Khulam-Main, the RC leases sevral Bulk freighters from the Hiver client state of RENJ (A TL-11 former TL-15 Solomani Confederation Pan Sophontist stronghold of previous era & a Nexus economic giant in Sitah Subsector P/OE), six of which are converted into warships (15ktns).

D) 1203 is a banner year for the small A-class yards dirtside, as civilian merchant vessels of various designs hit the market, and speculative trade with the Back Face worlds continues (much pouring through Baldur & Oriflamme's coffers). Trade into the new Rim territories of lazzerton, Mackenzie, and Dagir subsectors needs starships to carry the salvaged goods back into the RC.

E) It is also a banner year for colonizing cm worlds, using the SNAKE AVV weapon, wiping out virii eggs from recovered relic equipement, some colonies paying for themselves (initial set up costs) in a matter of months!)
_______________________________________________
"Are the Macedonians the restructured Soleean Star Emprie? The Fourth Imperium? Something else? Who knows? I imagine in this scenario that the Hivers do what they, and the Olympians, do best: they watch. To them, the RC ripping itself apart would be a fascinating lab experiment; after all, they never got a chance to do a controlled study of the Imperium turning on itself. Somehow I find the idea of the Aubanis screaming to the starfish for help as Oriflammnan fire arcs down from the heavens, only to get the message back "The Federation does not intervene in the internal matters of other states (plus, violence scares us.)" immensely satisfying."

_______________________________________________
If that was the way things went, yes, Arsulon, it makes a great "endgame analogy."
Oriflamme's representational troubles will come to a head during the war, and get resolved (IMTU), but remains Centrist-minded. The new level of tech (TL-10), selling off TL-9 stuff to worlds trying to reach that creates a booming middle class and new jobs...more choices, ANd The F-Techs have to stay in front of the ball, or get rolled over by it. Realpolitik time again!

ANother issue that comes to the floor of the RCSA during the war, is the Non-voting issue of resource worlds from colonists from voting worlds, or lack of representation. Sevral get raided by Raiders, and SOlee in the war, and demands for protection raises this ugly duckling to the political front burner.
In the end, "swallowing the Whale" of Solee kills the RC as a bureaucratic entity (RCSA), sevral Soleean worlds are Hi-Pop, and when they make "the necessary reforms", their votes wipe out the Aubaini-majority! Thus a new form of government, centralized must arise (remember the scene in SW-1, the Senate in the Republic's capital--with 1 representative per million, a world of a billion has 100 representatives! Take CZERNIAK, now with 18 billion (Size A world), thats 1800 representatives at TL-11 in Jayna. Talk about dominate the issues! RENJ, if it joined, would have 80 billion (8000 rpresentatives)! SO change HAs to occur. MJD knows this (we correspond, as it were), and I trust his judgement where he's leading off to.

 

[daryen]

Little math nitpick:

If you have 1 representative per million, a planet with 1 billion will have 1000 representatives, not 100. For an 18 billion planet, you get 18,000 representatives, not 1800.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by daryen:
Little math nitpick:

If you have 1 representative per million, a planet with 1 billion will have 1000 representatives, not 100. For an 18 billion planet, you get 18,000 representatives, not 1800.

____________________________________
By gumbo, daryen, yer right.EVEN more reason for the cumbersome RCSA to go under!
(BTW, FWIW: I am publicly admitting math errors now, along with the rest of me faults! OOOPS!).

Thank you MrDaryen! (back to the abacus with me!)