Solee
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daryen
SOC-14 1K
The most recent thread containing info from MJD is: http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000091
The biggest thread is: http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000076
Just go to the TNE section and show discussions for the last year. There are three pages of discussions you can look through. MJD has contributed quite a bit.
The biggest thread is: http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000076
Just go to the TNE section and show discussions for the last year. There are three pages of discussions you can look through. MJD has contributed quite a bit.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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Alas frere Kafka, that is a supplement I do not possess!
Antony Farell has his site on the banners sector, rimwards of the Main Solomani sphere, is this one of those areas? If so, he's done some great TNE work there.
1.
As to the Trojan Reaches - The encroachment of the Aslan is plausible because they were already there - in its fleshing in Third Imperium magazine the Aslan controlled most of the Rimward subsectors and so could advance at pace. This is especially true as the Imperial subsectors were surrounded by weak client states.
Its also the case that the Imperial fleet departed to protect Deneb and the Sector Duke committed suicide. That power vacuum was filled by the advancing Aslan.
(IMTU, set in the Trojans, the main fault was the frontier nobility who were more like the Montagu's and Capulets than the loyal stalwarts of Imperial power).
2.
As to the Trojan Reaches - The encroachment of the Aslan is plausible because they were already there - in its fleshing in Third Imperium magazine the Aslan controlled most of the Rimward subsectors and so could advance at pace. This is especially true as the Imperial subsectors were surrounded by weak client states.
Its also the case that the Imperial fleet departed to protect Deneb and the Sector Duke committed suicide. That power vacuum was filled by the advancing Aslan.
(IMTU, set in the Trojans, the main fault was the frontier nobility who were more like the Montagu's and Capulets than the loyal stalwarts of Imperial power).
2.
2. I could visualize the Empress Wave being the last strike of Grandfather's Children to awaken all passive Droyne (read: non-Ancients) to raise them to full potential. Here I am think of Clarke's Children of Earth. The wave as the final weapon, pity that Grandfather sealed the bulk of his oppoients in a pocket universe, but, maybe his rival children were bleeding their way through, as suggested in one of the T4 adventures.
1. Having the Aslan encroach into Imperial Space is highly plausible in TNE, however, the virus would put a tamper on their systems. Therefore, I think we would see a fragmentation of the clans as Kusu becomes ever more distant. I would speculate this would be akin to the warlord period, of China in the 20th century or Shoganate period of pre-Menji Japan.
However, I do see that that would also entail a fallback from Imperial Aslan, trying actively to recruit them into Domain institutions. Leading to age old War of the Sexes, which nearly destroys the Aslan presence in the Reach.
1. Having the Aslan encroach into Imperial Space is highly plausible in TNE, however, the virus would put a tamper on their systems. Therefore, I think we would see a fragmentation of the clans as Kusu becomes ever more distant. I would speculate this would be akin to the warlord period, of China in the 20th century or Shoganate period of pre-Menji Japan.
However, I do see that that would also entail a fallback from Imperial Aslan, trying actively to recruit them into Domain institutions. Leading to age old War of the Sexes, which nearly destroys the Aslan presence in the Reach.
"Its also the case that the Imperial fleet departed to protect Deneb and the Sector Duke committed suicide. That power vacuum was filled by the advancing Aslan."
Sir,
While the sector duke did commit suicide on Tobia, the Imperial fleets in the Reaches were not withdrawn to 'protect Deneb'. None of Lucan's disasterous redeployment orders were issued to the sectors 'Behind the Claw'.
"(IMTU, set in the Trojans, the main fault was the frontier nobility who were more like the Montagu's and Capulets than the loyal stalwarts of Imperial power)."
That is one of the better explanations of the Alien Incursions; outright incompetence on the part of the nobility. Of course, being the better is relative as the Alien Incursions, as told by MT, completely beggar disbelief. No handwave can truly explain the Incursions as they are little more than an editorial 'deus et machina', an event mandated with a specific goal in mind.
Even with incompetent nobles, the Reaches managed to hold off the ihatei for centuries. A brace of pistol shots in the Throne Room didn't change that equation whatsoever. Even if the Imperial fleets were withdrawn; which they weren't, the colonial and planetary navies of the sector should have been able to mop the floor with the small, obsolete ihatei squadrons. Look at the nuc missile vs. dampers dynamic alone and leave aside the advent of meson guns; TL 14/15 Imperial ships would have gone through the TL 12/13 ihatei vessels like green corn through a goose.
According to the Rebellion Sourcebook, an ihatei squadron uses obsolescent vessels 2 or 3 TLs below the Heirate's TL. The warships given the ihatei are either cruiser sized or below. If this lack of front-line combatants isn't enough of a burden, an ihatei squadron is also further hobbled by the need to escort and protect the various merchants and freighters that are carrying the squadron's raison d'etre; the colonists looking for new lands. Within the ihatei squadrons, these noncombatant vessels outnumber any actual warships by a wide margin.
Yet, despite it's own descriptions of ihatei organization and equipment, the Rebellion Sourcebook would have us believe that the ihatei swallowed the Trojan Reach and even threatened systems like Glisten. I'm sorry, but my disbelief suspenders snapped real damn quick over those claims. It just doesn't add up, no way - no how.
All that being said, the Alien Incursions cannot be ignored. They are a part of Traveller canon. I'd like to see this part of the OTU timeline 'oxbowed' (the Rebellion and all that flows from it), decanonized and written off as a good idea doomed by extremely bad execution. However, my likes and dislikes don't amount to a thing. I'll just have to hold my nose and continue to swallow the utter codswollop that are the Alien Incursions.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Sir,
While the sector duke did commit suicide on Tobia, the Imperial fleets in the Reaches were not withdrawn to 'protect Deneb'. None of Lucan's disasterous redeployment orders were issued to the sectors 'Behind the Claw'.
"(IMTU, set in the Trojans, the main fault was the frontier nobility who were more like the Montagu's and Capulets than the loyal stalwarts of Imperial power)."
That is one of the better explanations of the Alien Incursions; outright incompetence on the part of the nobility. Of course, being the better is relative as the Alien Incursions, as told by MT, completely beggar disbelief. No handwave can truly explain the Incursions as they are little more than an editorial 'deus et machina', an event mandated with a specific goal in mind.
Even with incompetent nobles, the Reaches managed to hold off the ihatei for centuries. A brace of pistol shots in the Throne Room didn't change that equation whatsoever. Even if the Imperial fleets were withdrawn; which they weren't, the colonial and planetary navies of the sector should have been able to mop the floor with the small, obsolete ihatei squadrons. Look at the nuc missile vs. dampers dynamic alone and leave aside the advent of meson guns; TL 14/15 Imperial ships would have gone through the TL 12/13 ihatei vessels like green corn through a goose.
According to the Rebellion Sourcebook, an ihatei squadron uses obsolescent vessels 2 or 3 TLs below the Heirate's TL. The warships given the ihatei are either cruiser sized or below. If this lack of front-line combatants isn't enough of a burden, an ihatei squadron is also further hobbled by the need to escort and protect the various merchants and freighters that are carrying the squadron's raison d'etre; the colonists looking for new lands. Within the ihatei squadrons, these noncombatant vessels outnumber any actual warships by a wide margin.
Yet, despite it's own descriptions of ihatei organization and equipment, the Rebellion Sourcebook would have us believe that the ihatei swallowed the Trojan Reach and even threatened systems like Glisten. I'm sorry, but my disbelief suspenders snapped real damn quick over those claims. It just doesn't add up, no way - no how.
All that being said, the Alien Incursions cannot be ignored. They are a part of Traveller canon. I'd like to see this part of the OTU timeline 'oxbowed' (the Rebellion and all that flows from it), decanonized and written off as a good idea doomed by extremely bad execution. However, my likes and dislikes don't amount to a thing. I'll just have to hold my nose and continue to swallow the utter codswollop that are the Alien Incursions.
Sincerely,
Larsen
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Just to amplify Larsen's comments, (gee, I seem to be doing that a lot lately), Tobia and Glisten's planetary defense force should be able to successfully fight off, if not outright destroy completely, multiple, simultaneous ihatei incursions into their systems.
Their actual navies should be able to protect a subsector. Without Imperial Navy help.
My problem is not with the ihatei gaining ground in the Reaches. It is with their successful, unchallenged taking of Imperial territory. Incompetance is not enough; there would have to be active collusion from Navy *and* noble concerns.
Their actual navies should be able to protect a subsector. Without Imperial Navy help.
My problem is not with the ihatei gaining ground in the Reaches. It is with their successful, unchallenged taking of Imperial territory. Incompetance is not enough; there would have to be active collusion from Navy *and* noble concerns.
"My problem is not with the ihatei gaining ground in the Reaches. It is with their successful, unchallenged taking of Imperial territory. Incompetance is not enough; there would have to be active collusion from Navy *and* noble concerns."
Sir,
Bingo! Give the gentleman a cigar! What I blubbered about through several paragraphs, you succinctly describe in a few sentences!
Given all the previous information regarding the Aslan and the Imperium, the ihatei should have been repulsed with ease. Yet, MT wants us to believe they were not. MT actually needs us to believe they were not, because if we don't believe, the whole rotten structure of the Rebellion falls apart.
The Domain of Deneb needs to be cut-off from the Imperium, so, against all reason, the Vargr corsairs swarm Corridor, a sector that has seen Imperial defensive preperations for centuries. The Domain of Deneb then needs to be distracted so that it cannot clear Corridor and rejoin the Imperium, so the ihatei in their elderly ships and hobbled by their thousands of colonists swallow the Reaches and threaten the Marches' borders.
Codswallop.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Sir,
Bingo! Give the gentleman a cigar! What I blubbered about through several paragraphs, you succinctly describe in a few sentences!
Given all the previous information regarding the Aslan and the Imperium, the ihatei should have been repulsed with ease. Yet, MT wants us to believe they were not. MT actually needs us to believe they were not, because if we don't believe, the whole rotten structure of the Rebellion falls apart.
The Domain of Deneb needs to be cut-off from the Imperium, so, against all reason, the Vargr corsairs swarm Corridor, a sector that has seen Imperial defensive preperations for centuries. The Domain of Deneb then needs to be distracted so that it cannot clear Corridor and rejoin the Imperium, so the ihatei in their elderly ships and hobbled by their thousands of colonists swallow the Reaches and threaten the Marches' borders.
Codswallop.
Sincerely,
Larsen
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Alas frere Kafka, that is a supplement I do not possess!
Antony Farell has his site on the banners sector, rimwards of the Main Solomani sphere, is this one of those areas? If so, he's done some great TNE work there. </font>[/QUOTE]Liam:
Found a source (http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/FDA/rt-states.html#CC) that might make up for your lack of Rats & Cats...
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Codswallop!
Mr whipsnade has a way with words, aye.
the MT-BTC campaign does require large swallows of that. Or that even in sheer volume of these older, technologically inferior starships the imperial fleets of the marches/ Deneb, and the portion of the trojan reaches could not have have repelled them.
But inorder to *believe* the Domain of Deneb was utterly cut off, and caught with the sich as it was, Mr whipsnade is correct:
Noble and navy collusion with the ihatei/ Vargr raiding forces stands as a distinct possibility for the inital gains to have been so preciptiously
made.
(Ah the possibilitites of an Intrigue rife campaign! Hmmmm. Savors the skullduggery of possibilities! YUM)
Incredulously too, that the Domain fleets could not have by 1120 gained the upper hand and crushed them utterly.
But then, the scriptwriters dinnae consult us, did they?
We shall see how things unfold.
heretically yours,
Mr whipsnade has a way with words, aye.
the MT-BTC campaign does require large swallows of that. Or that even in sheer volume of these older, technologically inferior starships the imperial fleets of the marches/ Deneb, and the portion of the trojan reaches could not have have repelled them.
But inorder to *believe* the Domain of Deneb was utterly cut off, and caught with the sich as it was, Mr whipsnade is correct:
Noble and navy collusion with the ihatei/ Vargr raiding forces stands as a distinct possibility for the inital gains to have been so preciptiously
made.
(Ah the possibilitites of an Intrigue rife campaign! Hmmmm. Savors the skullduggery of possibilities! YUM)
Incredulously too, that the Domain fleets could not have by 1120 gained the upper hand and crushed them utterly.
But then, the scriptwriters dinnae consult us, did they?
We shall see how things unfold.
heretically yours,
Invading Aslan
Unfortunately for Trojan, the subsector duke did send most of the sector (well 1/4 sector) fleet into the marches to help keep the vargr off.
This is why the aslan got in, now look at somethink like FFW, you need a decent population (level 7 for any sort of SDB, level 6 for a standing army, level 8 for passable SDBs and level 9/A for decent defences). The TL advantage also works for the aslan. A TL13 ihatei force will decimate a TL9/10/11 force.
So only high population TL12+ world will be able to hold off a major incursion (lets face it, thats what jewell did for the entire FFW). But the bulk of the sector is aslan food.
But once the vargr have been pushed back, (Norris's secret deals with the lot holding depot), returning imperial fleets (especially raiders) should have massacred most alsan forces.
The aslan would not have been able to take glisten or Tobia (too many TL15 deep meson guns and SDBs).
If you check the regency source book, the regency navy expelled most of the aslan during onset of virus (when half the navy was out shooting virus infested ships), so they must have had the capability by mid 1125ish. Not sure why they did not do it earlier.
Does this add to the confusion?
Cheers
Richard
Unfortunately for Trojan, the subsector duke did send most of the sector (well 1/4 sector) fleet into the marches to help keep the vargr off.
This is why the aslan got in, now look at somethink like FFW, you need a decent population (level 7 for any sort of SDB, level 6 for a standing army, level 8 for passable SDBs and level 9/A for decent defences). The TL advantage also works for the aslan. A TL13 ihatei force will decimate a TL9/10/11 force.
So only high population TL12+ world will be able to hold off a major incursion (lets face it, thats what jewell did for the entire FFW). But the bulk of the sector is aslan food.
But once the vargr have been pushed back, (Norris's secret deals with the lot holding depot), returning imperial fleets (especially raiders) should have massacred most alsan forces.
The aslan would not have been able to take glisten or Tobia (too many TL15 deep meson guns and SDBs).
If you check the regency source book, the regency navy expelled most of the aslan during onset of virus (when half the navy was out shooting virus infested ships), so they must have had the capability by mid 1125ish. Not sure why they did not do it earlier.
Does this add to the confusion?
Cheers
Richard
"Unfortunately for Trojan, the subsector duke did send most of the sector (well 1/4 sector) fleet into the marches to help keep the vargr off."
Sir,
So we have the sector duke sending off most Imperial forces to help contain an inconsquential threat and that means the colonial and planetary forces cannot handle the other inconsquential threat they face? Everything we've said about the Aslan goes for the Vargr in spades. Simply removing Imperial forces in the regions involved does not leave them open to conquest.
"This is why the aslan got in, now look at somethink like FFW, you need a decent population (level 7 for any sort of SDB, level 6 for a standing army, level 8 for passable SDBs and level 9/A for decent defences)."
Look at 5th Frontier War again. There's a desert world listed there with a minimal population, low tech level, and class E port that somehow hosts hundreds of SDBs.
"The TL advantage also works for the aslan. A TL13 ihatei force will decimate a TL9/10/11 force."
The Heirate operates at TL13/14. They in turn give the ihatei obsolete vessels, TL11/12. There is no tech advantage on the ihatei's part. If anything, the tech advantage lays with the Imperium. While planetary forces draw on a system's TL, colonial forces draw on a sector's TL. Colonial forces are also made up up 2nd hand Imperial forces, so they're at TL14 mostly.
"So only high population TL12+ world will be able to hold off a major incursion (lets face it, thats what jewell did for the entire FFW). But the bulk of the sector is aslan food."
The ihatei aren't arriving in battlefleets, they've got colonists with them. The freighters and liners holding those noncombatants actually make up most of the ihatei squadrons. MT has each ihatei group sporting SIX or fewer obsolete warships guarding dozens of colony ships.
"If you check the regency source book, the regency navy expelled most of the aslan during onset of virus (when half the navy was out shooting virus infested ships), so they must have had the capability by mid 1125ish. Not sure why they did not do it earlier."
A very good point, why didn't they do it sooner and why did it have to be done at all?
Sincerely,
Larsen
Sir,
So we have the sector duke sending off most Imperial forces to help contain an inconsquential threat and that means the colonial and planetary forces cannot handle the other inconsquential threat they face? Everything we've said about the Aslan goes for the Vargr in spades. Simply removing Imperial forces in the regions involved does not leave them open to conquest.
"This is why the aslan got in, now look at somethink like FFW, you need a decent population (level 7 for any sort of SDB, level 6 for a standing army, level 8 for passable SDBs and level 9/A for decent defences)."
Look at 5th Frontier War again. There's a desert world listed there with a minimal population, low tech level, and class E port that somehow hosts hundreds of SDBs.
"The TL advantage also works for the aslan. A TL13 ihatei force will decimate a TL9/10/11 force."
The Heirate operates at TL13/14. They in turn give the ihatei obsolete vessels, TL11/12. There is no tech advantage on the ihatei's part. If anything, the tech advantage lays with the Imperium. While planetary forces draw on a system's TL, colonial forces draw on a sector's TL. Colonial forces are also made up up 2nd hand Imperial forces, so they're at TL14 mostly.
"So only high population TL12+ world will be able to hold off a major incursion (lets face it, thats what jewell did for the entire FFW). But the bulk of the sector is aslan food."
The ihatei aren't arriving in battlefleets, they've got colonists with them. The freighters and liners holding those noncombatants actually make up most of the ihatei squadrons. MT has each ihatei group sporting SIX or fewer obsolete warships guarding dozens of colony ships.
"If you check the regency source book, the regency navy expelled most of the aslan during onset of virus (when half the navy was out shooting virus infested ships), so they must have had the capability by mid 1125ish. Not sure why they did not do it earlier."
A very good point, why didn't they do it sooner and why did it have to be done at all?
Sincerely,
Larsen
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Bravo, Mr Whipsnade! excellent points!
Richard, good one at the end lad!
(part of our ongoing Ursula camapign is dealing with navy corruption that allows the FFW to go badly at first a certain chap named Norris has to relieve LORD Sector ADM Frederick Santanocheev at pistol point.)..
Wonder if same sort of rot slithered off into trojans?
HMMMMMMMMMMMMM????
( i see some possibilities here, lads!)
Slainte!
Richard, good one at the end lad!
(part of our ongoing Ursula camapign is dealing with navy corruption that allows the FFW to go badly at first a certain chap named Norris has to relieve LORD Sector ADM Frederick Santanocheev at pistol point.)..
Wonder if same sort of rot slithered off into trojans?
HMMMMMMMMMMMMM????
( i see some possibilities here, lads!)
Slainte!
Dear Sir,
Having been indirectly accused of codswallop, I feel compelled to take up my pen and exercise my right to reply. I propose to begin with a history lesson and then make further observations.
Taking as my starting point Mike Jackson’s Third Imperium fanzine and his article in Traveller Digest 20 pp.29-30 rather than the ex post facto rationalisation of Dave N, the explanation went like this:
‘The landless ihatei of the trans-Rift colonies seized the opportunity to expand. Backed by their fellows in the Hierate, they swept out of Aslan territory into the vast no-man’s land of the Reach’s central subsectors’ (TD 20 p.29)
Prior to the rebellion the Aslan Ahroay’if clan in the Tlaiowaha subsector had been involved in a minor war thus sharpening their claws for battle (TI no.2). The Aslan therefore had a major staging post of experienced troops for any attack in the future. Furthermore, the Imperial/Aslan tradelane ran from Tlaiowaha to Tobia, thus providing the stepping stones for attack.
Before the Imperium could get its toys into action, the Aslan had advanced in 1117 through the Florian League’s worlds in the Nora’a subsector before coming up against the Floriani’s Ancient artefact weapons in 1120. The Aslan then attacked the Aslan splinter Glorious Empire, fighting a war of encirclement between 1117 and 1119 until the Empire’s capital at Syoakh/Goertel fell to black war. In Mike Jackson’s conception the attack on the Glorious Empire starts as minor Aslan clans ‘pecking’ at the Empire before the fully fledged onslaught starts in 1119.
Sindal easily fell as it had but three Imperial worlds within it and the rest consisting of the wrecked worlds of the former Vilani Sindalian Empire.
When the Aslan had finished their drive coreward (in effect only two subsectors) and punch drunk from land grabbing TD 20 has it that:
‘The Aslan set upon Tobia subsector, encroaching on the sector capital itself. In 1118 much of Tobia was staked out by Aslan settlors. The sector Duke Quinn committed suicide in the wake of this disaster.
Tobia’s fall was hastened by a lack of naval strength. At the outbreak of the Rebellion, Quinn had sent many ships coreward to bolster Norris’ forces against the Vargr. This left him unprepared for the sudden incursion of Aslan land-seekers.’
To cut things short Duchess Sharik Arcadia (Quinn’s replacement) dithered for a while until she started a campaign of divide and rule against the Aslan thus stalling their onward march. As Richard pointed out, the returning fleet could then knock them out.
In my submission this is entirely credible. The Imperials looked coreward to the Vargr as the threat. The Aslan had been fighting each other in minor skirmishes for 500 years. The Imperium did not need to ‘hold them back’ as their internecine strife kept them at bay. When the Aslan moved, they moved quick and swiftly. They were not even noticed at first as the minor Trojan clans fought small incursions on the borders of Aslan and Floriani states; something they had done for centuries. The gap between Tobia and Tlaiowaha provided no buffer for the Imperium being too primitive to resist. The Aslan march into Imperial space (on the TI/TD account at lease) was swift and limited and largely undefended (think the German jollies through Europe in 1914 and 1938-1939).
As to Tobia’s defence - a buried meson cannon is pretty useless against a horde of small troop transports raining down on your world. Its like using a M16 to kill a swarm of wasps who have left the nest. Think the Zulu wars! Quinn’s loss cut the head off the Imperial body politic and left Sharik to learn by trial and error. She grew up quickly and contained the threat.
Add to this my postulate that the Trojan nobility were not so noble and were a house divided and things become more clear (Maybe Quinn even met the Aslan at Noricum and came back with a piece of paper guaranteeing peace in our time - an event cheered by the Tobia nobles who carried on plotting and fighting over offices and wives). Add also the idea raised in the pages that some of the nobles entered into a demonic league with the Aslan in return for security and power and bingo! we have a minor finger of the Imperium unable to prevent an advance.
That something is rotten in the Imperium (the nobility) was the pregnant idea in the Rebellion; its one of the few things that DN picked on well and why I wouldn’t excise it from the OUT. IMO its why the Trojan’s is a cool place to be in Traveller!
Yours, etc
Elliot Vernon
Having been indirectly accused of codswallop, I feel compelled to take up my pen and exercise my right to reply. I propose to begin with a history lesson and then make further observations.
Taking as my starting point Mike Jackson’s Third Imperium fanzine and his article in Traveller Digest 20 pp.29-30 rather than the ex post facto rationalisation of Dave N, the explanation went like this:
‘The landless ihatei of the trans-Rift colonies seized the opportunity to expand. Backed by their fellows in the Hierate, they swept out of Aslan territory into the vast no-man’s land of the Reach’s central subsectors’ (TD 20 p.29)
Prior to the rebellion the Aslan Ahroay’if clan in the Tlaiowaha subsector had been involved in a minor war thus sharpening their claws for battle (TI no.2). The Aslan therefore had a major staging post of experienced troops for any attack in the future. Furthermore, the Imperial/Aslan tradelane ran from Tlaiowaha to Tobia, thus providing the stepping stones for attack.
Before the Imperium could get its toys into action, the Aslan had advanced in 1117 through the Florian League’s worlds in the Nora’a subsector before coming up against the Floriani’s Ancient artefact weapons in 1120. The Aslan then attacked the Aslan splinter Glorious Empire, fighting a war of encirclement between 1117 and 1119 until the Empire’s capital at Syoakh/Goertel fell to black war. In Mike Jackson’s conception the attack on the Glorious Empire starts as minor Aslan clans ‘pecking’ at the Empire before the fully fledged onslaught starts in 1119.
Sindal easily fell as it had but three Imperial worlds within it and the rest consisting of the wrecked worlds of the former Vilani Sindalian Empire.
When the Aslan had finished their drive coreward (in effect only two subsectors) and punch drunk from land grabbing TD 20 has it that:
‘The Aslan set upon Tobia subsector, encroaching on the sector capital itself. In 1118 much of Tobia was staked out by Aslan settlors. The sector Duke Quinn committed suicide in the wake of this disaster.
Tobia’s fall was hastened by a lack of naval strength. At the outbreak of the Rebellion, Quinn had sent many ships coreward to bolster Norris’ forces against the Vargr. This left him unprepared for the sudden incursion of Aslan land-seekers.’
To cut things short Duchess Sharik Arcadia (Quinn’s replacement) dithered for a while until she started a campaign of divide and rule against the Aslan thus stalling their onward march. As Richard pointed out, the returning fleet could then knock them out.
In my submission this is entirely credible. The Imperials looked coreward to the Vargr as the threat. The Aslan had been fighting each other in minor skirmishes for 500 years. The Imperium did not need to ‘hold them back’ as their internecine strife kept them at bay. When the Aslan moved, they moved quick and swiftly. They were not even noticed at first as the minor Trojan clans fought small incursions on the borders of Aslan and Floriani states; something they had done for centuries. The gap between Tobia and Tlaiowaha provided no buffer for the Imperium being too primitive to resist. The Aslan march into Imperial space (on the TI/TD account at lease) was swift and limited and largely undefended (think the German jollies through Europe in 1914 and 1938-1939).
As to Tobia’s defence - a buried meson cannon is pretty useless against a horde of small troop transports raining down on your world. Its like using a M16 to kill a swarm of wasps who have left the nest. Think the Zulu wars! Quinn’s loss cut the head off the Imperial body politic and left Sharik to learn by trial and error. She grew up quickly and contained the threat.
Add to this my postulate that the Trojan nobility were not so noble and were a house divided and things become more clear (Maybe Quinn even met the Aslan at Noricum and came back with a piece of paper guaranteeing peace in our time - an event cheered by the Tobia nobles who carried on plotting and fighting over offices and wives). Add also the idea raised in the pages that some of the nobles entered into a demonic league with the Aslan in return for security and power and bingo! we have a minor finger of the Imperium unable to prevent an advance.
That something is rotten in the Imperium (the nobility) was the pregnant idea in the Rebellion; its one of the few things that DN picked on well and why I wouldn’t excise it from the OUT. IMO its why the Trojan’s is a cool place to be in Traveller!
Yours, etc
Elliot Vernon
"Having been indirectly accused of codswallop, I feel compelled to take up my pen and exercise my right to reply. I propose to begin with a history lesson and then make further observations."
(snip of well researched canonical material)
Sir,
Please be assured, I meant to accuse no one, other than the MT story designers, of codswallop.
I would ask you to step back from the historical descriptions you kindly shared with us and look at the affair as a whole. When the *forest* of the Alien Incursions is examined, rather than the individual *trees*, the implausibility of the entire episode becomes self evident.
Look at the incredible number of handwaves neccessary for the Alsan conquest of Tobia; various pocket empires along the border all ripe for the plucking, sooper-dooper Ancient weapons laying about and waiting to be used, a recent major clan war to get the Aslan in fighting trim, outright incompetence among the majority of Imperial nobles, and a whole raft of others. How many of these handwaves and 'explanations' were present *before* the ihatei were said to have swamped the Trojan Reach and how many were added *after* the fact when the decidely implausible nature of the conquest was pointed out?
All the information you kindly provided us wasn't created by MT as a REASON for the ihatei conquest, all this information was created to EXCUSE the conquest. That is a very big difference.
"Tobia’s fall was hastened by a lack of naval strength. At the outbreak of the Rebellion, Quinn had sent many ships coreward to bolster Norris’ forces against the Vargr. This left him unprepared for the sudden incursion of Aslan land-seekers."
The redeployment of fleet assets against the Vargr holds no water. Given CT's and MT's own descriptions, the Vargr were no more of a threat than the ihatei were. MT would have us believe that the Imperial fleet left to fight one implausible threat while leaving the Reaches open to another equally implausible threat. One fellow hobbyist who has studied these claims; taking into account the populations, TLs, ship numbers, and force structures provided by MT, has likened the conquest of the Reaches by the ihatei to the successful conquest of the eastern seaboard of the US by EU fishery patrol vessels just because the USN happens to be elsewhere. In this case, simply handwaving away the USN on some redeployment to chase pixies doesn't even begin to 'explain' that event just handwaving away the IN off to chase Vargr doesn't explain the ihatei's conquest.
"As to Tobia’s defence - a buried meson cannon is pretty useless against a horde of small troop transports raining down on your world. Its like using a M16 to kill a swarm of wasps who have left the nest. Think the Zulu wars! Quinn’s loss cut the head off the Imperial body politic and left Sharik to learn by trial and error. She grew up quickly and contained the threat."
Buried meson cannon certainly worked against a horde of small Zhodani troop transports at Jewell and Efate. Why wouldn't they work against the ihatei at Tobia? As for the Zulus, they may have won a single battle due to poor troop deployment but they lost the actual war.
How many troops do you think the ihatei had on hand? Enough for a formal planetary assault?MT's own Rebellion sourcebook is pretty clear on the make up of an ihatei squadron. Most of the squadron is comprised of non-combatants aboard civilian vessels. The ihatei aren't crossing the border in battlefleets convoying armies. They're primarily colonists.
In the end, the ihatei conquest rests on far too many 'whoppers', too many excuses, too many handwaves to make it believable. The result was predetermined; the Domain needed to be cut-off and distracted during the Rebellion, and the tools used; the Vargr and ihatei, were warped out of all recognition to achieve the desired result.
The end in this case did not justify the means.
The paucity of the story surrounding the ihatei conquest shows clearly in TNE's treatment of the entire affair. The Domain settles the ihatei's hash in almost an incidental manner, as if to point out the fairy tale nature of MT's claims on conquest.
All this being said, the Incursions are part of canon. Mr. Doughery's M:1248 holds the promise of certain aspects of the Rebellion and Virus Eras being recast but, until that happens, we must swallow the story of the incursions no matter how implausible that story may be.
Sincerely,
Larsen
(snip of well researched canonical material)
Sir,
Please be assured, I meant to accuse no one, other than the MT story designers, of codswallop.
I would ask you to step back from the historical descriptions you kindly shared with us and look at the affair as a whole. When the *forest* of the Alien Incursions is examined, rather than the individual *trees*, the implausibility of the entire episode becomes self evident.
Look at the incredible number of handwaves neccessary for the Alsan conquest of Tobia; various pocket empires along the border all ripe for the plucking, sooper-dooper Ancient weapons laying about and waiting to be used, a recent major clan war to get the Aslan in fighting trim, outright incompetence among the majority of Imperial nobles, and a whole raft of others. How many of these handwaves and 'explanations' were present *before* the ihatei were said to have swamped the Trojan Reach and how many were added *after* the fact when the decidely implausible nature of the conquest was pointed out?
All the information you kindly provided us wasn't created by MT as a REASON for the ihatei conquest, all this information was created to EXCUSE the conquest. That is a very big difference.
"Tobia’s fall was hastened by a lack of naval strength. At the outbreak of the Rebellion, Quinn had sent many ships coreward to bolster Norris’ forces against the Vargr. This left him unprepared for the sudden incursion of Aslan land-seekers."
The redeployment of fleet assets against the Vargr holds no water. Given CT's and MT's own descriptions, the Vargr were no more of a threat than the ihatei were. MT would have us believe that the Imperial fleet left to fight one implausible threat while leaving the Reaches open to another equally implausible threat. One fellow hobbyist who has studied these claims; taking into account the populations, TLs, ship numbers, and force structures provided by MT, has likened the conquest of the Reaches by the ihatei to the successful conquest of the eastern seaboard of the US by EU fishery patrol vessels just because the USN happens to be elsewhere. In this case, simply handwaving away the USN on some redeployment to chase pixies doesn't even begin to 'explain' that event just handwaving away the IN off to chase Vargr doesn't explain the ihatei's conquest.
"As to Tobia’s defence - a buried meson cannon is pretty useless against a horde of small troop transports raining down on your world. Its like using a M16 to kill a swarm of wasps who have left the nest. Think the Zulu wars! Quinn’s loss cut the head off the Imperial body politic and left Sharik to learn by trial and error. She grew up quickly and contained the threat."
Buried meson cannon certainly worked against a horde of small Zhodani troop transports at Jewell and Efate. Why wouldn't they work against the ihatei at Tobia? As for the Zulus, they may have won a single battle due to poor troop deployment but they lost the actual war.
How many troops do you think the ihatei had on hand? Enough for a formal planetary assault?MT's own Rebellion sourcebook is pretty clear on the make up of an ihatei squadron. Most of the squadron is comprised of non-combatants aboard civilian vessels. The ihatei aren't crossing the border in battlefleets convoying armies. They're primarily colonists.
In the end, the ihatei conquest rests on far too many 'whoppers', too many excuses, too many handwaves to make it believable. The result was predetermined; the Domain needed to be cut-off and distracted during the Rebellion, and the tools used; the Vargr and ihatei, were warped out of all recognition to achieve the desired result.
The end in this case did not justify the means.
The paucity of the story surrounding the ihatei conquest shows clearly in TNE's treatment of the entire affair. The Domain settles the ihatei's hash in almost an incidental manner, as if to point out the fairy tale nature of MT's claims on conquest.
All this being said, the Incursions are part of canon. Mr. Doughery's M:1248 holds the promise of certain aspects of the Rebellion and Virus Eras being recast but, until that happens, we must swallow the story of the incursions no matter how implausible that story may be.
Sincerely,
Larsen
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Regarding Tobia: A high-pop TL 15 world should be able to hold off ihatei invasions almost indefinitely with *no* fleet elements. Those deep meson sites are the last line of defense. What happened to the "boat" fleet which any such world will have?
It is pretty simple to design large, 5-10 kton boats which are basically immune to damage from non-capital ships. The ihatei have no capital ships. The only way they would lose is if a) "real" Aslan helped or b) they ran out of missles.
If a), then it is a real war and the Regency will not be very kind. If b), then there will be no ihetai problem for a decade or so as a large percentage are now dead.
The taking of a starport A, TL15 hipop world by TL15 forces is a difficult, time consuming and expensive effort. It just ain't gonna fall to a TL12-13 rag-tag force unless someone on the inside willingly opens the doors and keeps them open.
It is pretty simple to design large, 5-10 kton boats which are basically immune to damage from non-capital ships. The ihatei have no capital ships. The only way they would lose is if a) "real" Aslan helped or b) they ran out of missles.
If a), then it is a real war and the Regency will not be very kind. If b), then there will be no ihetai problem for a decade or so as a large percentage are now dead.
The taking of a starport A, TL15 hipop world by TL15 forces is a difficult, time consuming and expensive effort. It just ain't gonna fall to a TL12-13 rag-tag force unless someone on the inside willingly opens the doors and keeps them open.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Thinking even more on the ihatei invasions, a bigger question pops up.
Why didn't *anyone* learn the lesson taught by the Darrians almost a 1000 years ago? Just take the most powerful group that will negotiate with you, give them land you can spare, and have them fight with you to keep the rest out.
I am sure there is plenty of land on Tobia that could be bartered that way. Or, even better, just sell out some lower pop world nearby. Either way you now have a group of Aslan fighting *with* you, severely lessening any current threat and coopting and future threats. Plus, you get to keep control of what you already have.
Or is Imperial nobility even more stupid than people are making them out to be?
Why didn't *anyone* learn the lesson taught by the Darrians almost a 1000 years ago? Just take the most powerful group that will negotiate with you, give them land you can spare, and have them fight with you to keep the rest out.
I am sure there is plenty of land on Tobia that could be bartered that way. Or, even better, just sell out some lower pop world nearby. Either way you now have a group of Aslan fighting *with* you, severely lessening any current threat and coopting and future threats. Plus, you get to keep control of what you already have.
Or is Imperial nobility even more stupid than people are making them out to be?
With the nobility I don't think it is really about stupidity. I think it is about greed and a excessive sense of self importance.
We have all been brought up to believe that all Imperial nobles are like US senators - charged with the interests of the state and accountable for it to the people. The Imperial nobility are not so, they are accountable to the Emperor or to its ideal. The panegyrics that have often been presented in GDW sidebars are the statements of those who believe in the ideal.
Yet, as St Augustine might say, men are weak, they are fallen, not all can strive to the good. I have sympathy with Larsen, I get the sense that Mike Jackson wrote his descriptions having obtained the hymn sheet from GDW/DGP in advance. I get the sense that he felt his hands were tied.
The corruption and in fighting of the nobility on the Trojan frontier is something I invented when playing the campaign in 1990. At the time it was because I was studying Shakespeare and his age at school. I'd assumed it was my idea, but I am happy to see that the right minded travellers on these boards had the same idea.
Was Macbeth stupid? No - he was corrupt(ed) and that cost Scotland its children. Dulinor is a kind of Imperial Macbeth and some of the Imperial nobility are like the Montagu's and Capulets, more interested in their local power than the Imperial ideal they learnt in school.
If the Aslan look like the men of the moment, why not make league with them. If it removes family X (say Duke Quinn who has always impeded your progress or even insulted you some decades ago) then all for the well.
Yours as ever,
Elliot Vernon
We have all been brought up to believe that all Imperial nobles are like US senators - charged with the interests of the state and accountable for it to the people. The Imperial nobility are not so, they are accountable to the Emperor or to its ideal. The panegyrics that have often been presented in GDW sidebars are the statements of those who believe in the ideal.
Yet, as St Augustine might say, men are weak, they are fallen, not all can strive to the good. I have sympathy with Larsen, I get the sense that Mike Jackson wrote his descriptions having obtained the hymn sheet from GDW/DGP in advance. I get the sense that he felt his hands were tied.
The corruption and in fighting of the nobility on the Trojan frontier is something I invented when playing the campaign in 1990. At the time it was because I was studying Shakespeare and his age at school. I'd assumed it was my idea, but I am happy to see that the right minded travellers on these boards had the same idea.
Was Macbeth stupid? No - he was corrupt(ed) and that cost Scotland its children. Dulinor is a kind of Imperial Macbeth and some of the Imperial nobility are like the Montagu's and Capulets, more interested in their local power than the Imperial ideal they learnt in school.
If the Aslan look like the men of the moment, why not make league with them. If it removes family X (say Duke Quinn who has always impeded your progress or even insulted you some decades ago) then all for the well.
Yours as ever,
Elliot Vernon
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Remember that I am solely talking about the planetary navy. No Imperial noble controls that unless the noble directly rules the planet (like at Mora). I have no idea of the situation at Tobia.
Switching modes here, what I CAN see happening at Tobia is that, after seeing the gross Imperial incompetance, the local government simply cuts a deal with the Aslan. So then they are not so much ruled by the Aslan as allied with them. They become a willing part of the overall Aslan "empire", but humans still run that particular planet.
Switching modes here, what I CAN see happening at Tobia is that, after seeing the gross Imperial incompetance, the local government simply cuts a deal with the Aslan. So then they are not so much ruled by the Aslan as allied with them. They become a willing part of the overall Aslan "empire", but humans still run that particular planet.
