Evolution of a Starport
- Thread starter ravells
- Start date
IMTU, 80% or more of cargo traffic through a starport is bulk cargo: containerised and carried by major shipping companies. Its only the smaller lots (private customers, etc) that have the sorts of cargo carried by Free Traders and the like. Some are containerised but most are merely palletised. The cargo generation rules only generate those latter types of lots.
Now in the modern world cargo containers are compatible with road and rail transport (as well as stacked on sea ships) and only have to content with normal Earth-like weather. But now I think about it it makes sense that when a bulk cargo ship unloads from orbit that those containers have to be small craft compatible and spaceworthy. In other words I think the modular cutter cargo module would be the defacto cargo container of the Imperium. Given that, I can see a mid-TL world still using cranes and flatbed trucks to move cargo containers (albeit they are now cylindrical), but high-TL worlds would have a more efficient way of moving them around … such as a tube system or monorail, with automatic stacking in warehouses. And like Liam pointed out, just as today’s containers are recycled into other uses, so too would our cutter modules.
To summarise: containerised bulk cargo offloaded in orbit and brought down by cutters, which land on the ‘Eagle’ pads, whisked away into automated warehouse storage. Meanwhile, Free Traders landing on the old hanger pads, offloading palletised cargos using the high tech equivalent of fork-lift onto trucks that drive out the main gate. And the whole thing in reverse for outgoing cargo.
Admittedly the cylindrical shape isn’t the most efficient, either in terms of filling or in terms of stacking. But I’m not sure that’s much of a problem. After all the same issue applies to drums and we still use them … these are just larger and lie on their side. Possible health and safety issue with cargo containers accidentally rolling? What do people think?
Regards PLST
Now *that* makes a hell of a lot of sense. It can be an oblong shape....that's not a problem. What size would you say a 'standard' cargo container was? Small enough to fit onto a free trader or a scout?
Or do you think that smaller cargo carriers use the forklifts?
It also makes sense from the point of view of those mag lev guns that shoot cargo containers into orbit.
Ravs
ps. any idea about how to calculate the number of people who live in the city?
R
Or do you think that smaller cargo carriers use the forklifts?
It also makes sense from the point of view of those mag lev guns that shoot cargo containers into orbit.
Ravs
ps. any idea about how to calculate the number of people who live in the city?
R
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
I like the cargo containers featured in MT and GT. Basically the equivalent of the current day ISO containers it comes in a number of variants:
+ Container
+ Open framed sides, open top
+ Just the floor
and so on. In MT (and IIRC TNE) there is only the 4dton, fully closed version while GT has sizes from 8dton down in divisors of 2. Used aboard a modular cutter they will cause some wasted space but outside of that they will be easier to stow/handel and more flexibel when viewed over the Imperium as low tech worlds can better handel them. At 6.5m square by 13m long (rounded to the next 0.5m) the cutter modules are rather large (ISO container are 2.5m wide, 2.6 or 2.9m high and either 6.1 or 12.2m long)
I'd go with the smaller containers for the flexibility. Being norm-sized they can be handeled automatically on larger crafts (They are IRL) and are still small enough to be lugged around at TL5 using steam-cranes and such. Maybe add some deployabel rollers for ease of movement.
+ Container
+ Open framed sides, open top
+ Just the floor
and so on. In MT (and IIRC TNE) there is only the 4dton, fully closed version while GT has sizes from 8dton down in divisors of 2. Used aboard a modular cutter they will cause some wasted space but outside of that they will be easier to stow/handel and more flexibel when viewed over the Imperium as low tech worlds can better handel them. At 6.5m square by 13m long (rounded to the next 0.5m) the cutter modules are rather large (ISO container are 2.5m wide, 2.6 or 2.9m high and either 6.1 or 12.2m long)
I'd go with the smaller containers for the flexibility. Being norm-sized they can be handeled automatically on larger crafts (They are IRL) and are still small enough to be lugged around at TL5 using steam-cranes and such. Maybe add some deployabel rollers for ease of movement.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My best off the cuff WAG at both scale and density is about 1K in the shanty town and 250K in the city proper. Could be more, or less.
No, I like round.
For 'small' starships I'd use contemporary-style containers and/or pallets. If you haven't bought GT my version is here.
Ooooo! Forget the beanstalk, your starport needs a mag lev cargo gun!
Regards PLST
The city looks very cool. It also looks very planned. The starport looks good because its grown organically, and as new parts are added older parts become less than optimal. I hate to say this but the city’s highly planned look clashes with the starport’s organic growth look. I don’t mean aesthetically, I mean why would a society that plans a city like that allow the starport just to grow haphazardly.
Also, I think its too big at this stage of the game. Right amount of area, just way too tall. You can always bring in sky scrappers later, as the port becomes class A.
Regards PLST
Also, I think its too big at this stage of the game. Right amount of area, just way too tall. You can always bring in sky scrappers later, as the port becomes class A.
Regards PLST
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
T20 has it similar to GT.
Coincidentally I'm playing with the same thing in SketchUp at the moment. I'm modelling them on currently used containers which match pretty well to nominal dtons. I say nominal because to actually fit a container, with actual thickness of materials, into a ship hold with it's own actual bulkhead thickness, and allow some minimal space for loading and such the 4dton containers for example come out closer to 1.8dton internal capacity. And that's a pretty tight fit in my opinion. I still call them 4dtons for cargo calculations since that's what they require on the deckplan.
Translating the Real World most common sizes seem to be a nominal 2dton container about 2.5m square and 2.5m long, a nominal 4dton container about 2.5m square and 5.5m long, a nominal 6dton container about 2.5m square and 8.5m long, and a nominal 8dton container about 2.5m square and 11.5m long, the way I'm modelling them.
I'm making mine very modular so you can as noted have just the flatbed, a staked flatbed, end boxed flatbed, side boxed flatbed, open top, of fully enclosed. The open versions all have the option of soft sides. The closed versions have the option of standard panels or armored panels, and the panels come with various features such as doors, windows, and environmental units.
The whole thing is based on expandability. So for example you can start out with just a nominal 2dton flatbed. Then add posts for a staked flatbed. Then add a second flatbed with the connecting bridge for a nominal 4dton staked flatbed. Then add two standard panels for a nominal 4dton end boxed flatbed. Etc. etc. Just buy the parts you need, assemble as desired, use them then rebuild to suit as needed.
Most small merchants would buy a few to ship their speculative cargo in and either trade for empties in an exchange program with the port or deliver the contents and wait to take back their own empties.
All small freight would be containerized and ready to ship. It would just be the speculative and miscellaneous cargo that would be open (boxes or small crates, typically partial freight lots broken up for whatever reasons) shipments and it would be up to the merchant to worry about bulk containers for easier handling.
Thoughts:
1) Cylinders are used as drums (stacked on end) and almost always contain liquid or some loose material like packing chips, sand, or something like that. They rarely if ever contain consumer packaged products, which seem to gravitate to box shapes.
2) Huge cylinders that tip over can roll around and be a big danger. Yes, canon says the cutter uses modular, vs. rectangular, modules. I like to assume all the pictures of the cutter have it carrying a 'mass particulate/liquid cargo module' and that an actual packaged goods module *is* rectangular. As pointed out, they stack better and are safer.
3) City Size: I agree with the prior poster. Buildings are too high right now. I'd say 100-200K in the city is good. I do think your ring roads/clear areas are too large (in scale, if the buildings are very tall, they'd be vast...). I'd make them a bit smaller.
4) I had no idea what a Greeble was nor what greebling was until today. Thanks!
5) Nice link to Ottawa (note my point of origin).
6) As to why the city looks organized and the startown disorganized: The star town is full of a lot of offworld folk, aliens, and oddballs. They scare urban planners... intentionally.
One thing you often see in modern airports is a split into two sections, one for cargo planes which has bays adjacent to warehouses, and one for passenger planes that have concourses and guest services (and customs) next to the park bays. This distinction could be used - put cargo bays and warehouses over on one side and passenger facilities and parkbays on the other.
Ravs: Continued nice work. Nice... hah... what a poor word. I am amazed by what you've done so far. I know my praise doesn't match Andrew's or Crow's (Long May Their Pixels Shine!) but I think you get the award for both neatest series of images and most useful (non Trollish, intelligent) discussion thread in support of.
Excellent work. And yes, I will continue to repeat that. :0)
1) Cylinders are used as drums (stacked on end) and almost always contain liquid or some loose material like packing chips, sand, or something like that. They rarely if ever contain consumer packaged products, which seem to gravitate to box shapes.
2) Huge cylinders that tip over can roll around and be a big danger. Yes, canon says the cutter uses modular, vs. rectangular, modules. I like to assume all the pictures of the cutter have it carrying a 'mass particulate/liquid cargo module' and that an actual packaged goods module *is* rectangular. As pointed out, they stack better and are safer.
3) City Size: I agree with the prior poster. Buildings are too high right now. I'd say 100-200K in the city is good. I do think your ring roads/clear areas are too large (in scale, if the buildings are very tall, they'd be vast...). I'd make them a bit smaller.
4) I had no idea what a Greeble was nor what greebling was until today. Thanks!
5) Nice link to Ottawa (note my point of origin).
6) As to why the city looks organized and the startown disorganized: The star town is full of a lot of offworld folk, aliens, and oddballs. They scare urban planners... intentionally.
One thing you often see in modern airports is a split into two sections, one for cargo planes which has bays adjacent to warehouses, and one for passenger planes that have concourses and guest services (and customs) next to the park bays. This distinction could be used - put cargo bays and warehouses over on one side and passenger facilities and parkbays on the other.
Ravs: Continued nice work. Nice... hah... what a poor word. I am amazed by what you've done so far. I know my praise doesn't match Andrew's or Crow's (Long May Their Pixels Shine!) but I think you get the award for both neatest series of images and most useful (non Trollish, intelligent) discussion thread in support of.
Excellent work. And yes, I will continue to repeat that. :0)
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I like that reasoning too. And I actually like this version of the cutter (MT book) better because it's easier to see it as using different (including squared) modules. And it's so much closer in form to the Space 1999 Eagles
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Sorry! I missed this when it was originally posted (page 9).
The height was 8.3m which is still not far off 3 decks.</font>[/QUOTE]No problem, it happens
I'd noticed the differnce in the GT stuff too, put it down to different artists or some odd perspective issue. No idea what the real reason is.
That sounds like a perfect place for a...
NEW THREAD CAST!
Click here to accept the challenge, or simply to watch those who do.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Far Trader:
I suggest to look up ISO container on the Web. Wiki has a starting point with ISO Container and some information about weight etc.
IMHO your "tara" dtons are to high compared to real world boxes. Most containers won't be pressurised hulls but simple steel boxes with sides similar to a JU52 plane (Wellblech, that wavy-presses steel) for added stability
Edit:
I do not mean "copy ISO containers 1:1". More use them as a ready-made starting point.
Actually I can see ISB (Imperial Standards Bureau) Containers to start with a basic cube, say 2x2x2m or "Starship useabel deck hight - Space for forklift-equivalent" per side. And bigger ones using multiple length, maybe even multiple modules weldet together and the inner wall ommitted/left out.
I suggest to look up ISO container on the Web. Wiki has a starting point with ISO Container and some information about weight etc.
IMHO your "tara" dtons are to high compared to real world boxes. Most containers won't be pressurised hulls but simple steel boxes with sides similar to a JU52 plane (Wellblech, that wavy-presses steel) for added stability
Edit:
I do not mean "copy ISO containers 1:1". More use them as a ready-made starting point.
Actually I can see ISB (Imperial Standards Bureau) Containers to start with a basic cube, say 2x2x2m or "Starship useabel deck hight - Space for forklift-equivalent" per side. And bigger ones using multiple length, maybe even multiple modules weldet together and the inner wall ommitted/left out.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Hmmm. Population.
Given that the highrises maybe too big for the starport (now at C-class)...before greeble-adjustment,
I'd hazard sid6.7 is close at 2.5K-5K on the startown, but I'd hazard the "city" settlement a bit lower ceiling at 250K. Let's call it 500K tops (UWP pop 5).
lets try this formula for worlds pop 5 through pop 8:
+Startown total = 1% of planet of total population (250K to 500K x 0.01% = 2.5K to 5K). Lets say 5K shall we?
+Figuring in what portion of SPA (Cargo/ Passengers/ Ship's services/ Security/ Shuttle crews) out of that 1% of startown works there.
A-class=(10%)of total, or 500 personnel
B-class= (8%) of total, or 400 personnel
C-class= (6%) of total, or 300 personnel*
D-class= (4%) of total, or 200 personnel
E-class= (2%) of total, or 100 personnel.
Okay with me so far?
Using the same Starport percentages now to determine the total number of sophonts employed by the port (in all of its facets), living in the city.
+A-class = 5K
+B-class = 4K
+C-class = 3K
+D-class = 2K
+E-class = 1K
Add the two sums. Our C-class Port now has 3500 or 3.5K working employees directly in the SPA. One could easily say they all live in the startown as well (3.5K out of 5K). How's that for SWAG?
Given that the highrises maybe too big for the starport (now at C-class)...before greeble-adjustment,
I'd hazard sid6.7 is close at 2.5K-5K on the startown, but I'd hazard the "city" settlement a bit lower ceiling at 250K. Let's call it 500K tops (UWP pop 5).
lets try this formula for worlds pop 5 through pop 8:
+Startown total = 1% of planet of total population (250K to 500K x 0.01% = 2.5K to 5K). Lets say 5K shall we?
+Figuring in what portion of SPA (Cargo/ Passengers/ Ship's services/ Security/ Shuttle crews) out of that 1% of startown works there.
A-class=(10%)of total, or 500 personnel
B-class= (8%) of total, or 400 personnel
C-class= (6%) of total, or 300 personnel*
D-class= (4%) of total, or 200 personnel
E-class= (2%) of total, or 100 personnel.
Okay with me so far?
Using the same Starport percentages now to determine the total number of sophonts employed by the port (in all of its facets), living in the city.
+A-class = 5K
+B-class = 4K
+C-class = 3K
+D-class = 2K
+E-class = 1K
Add the two sums. Our C-class Port now has 3500 or 3.5K working employees directly in the SPA. One could easily say they all live in the startown as well (3.5K out of 5K). How's that for SWAG?
P
Pickles
Guest
Oops. My mistake.
Last edited:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Thanks Michael, that's exactly what I did the first time I looked at doing some Traveller containers, ages ago
I've moved the discussion to it's own thread to avoid cluttering up this one.
Click here to continue the discussion of cargo container standards.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Thank you Far Trader for the sidebar & new thread link!
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Definitely packed like sardines there Brom-great linkage!
And Thank you on the numbers! I've been web-mining looking at the population vs large airport/starport figures of late in conjunction with this project, albeit its sketchy, and takes no consideration of any automated help (robots, mass labor saving devices associated with Tech levels). Michael Brinkhues is our guy for seaport-starport extrapolations.
