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Evolution of a Starport

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Why do I have the picture of a mid-sized Vagr craft sitting in such a berth, the captain and crew floating around on inflateable "easy" chairs being served those drinks with the little umbrellas in it
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Hey! I was at that party too! :D
 
Originally posted by Marvo:
If you landed a 100kton ship on the surface wouldn't you have to keep the anti-grav on all the time just to prevent the ship being crushed under it's own weight? The structural reinforcement required to maintain the structural integrity of the ship might not be very cost effective. :confused: And just imagine the landing gear that you would need to support such a weight. Landing on the belly would be okay for some ships, but not for any that have any turrets on the bottom.
If you use HePlar or other "thrust" based m-drives (vs the falling into an artificial gravity well type) - then anything with a 1G acceleration or better would of necessity have more than enough structural reinforcement for sitting on land as long as the local gravity didn't exceed the drive rating.

However, unless the ship was designed to land, the structural reinforcement may not be in the right locations. This goes along with the landing gear statement and the issue of the landing pad for large ships. Both of which are addressed if the large ships land in water (though there are other implications for design that water landing creates.)

The question is at what level does the starport provide the intertubes and drinks with umbrella's? ;)
 
The question is at what level does the starport provide the intertubes and drinks with umbrella's?
;)
That would be TL4 where innertube tires first appear.

paper-twig drink umbrellas...TL3

Free drinks--Must be a No law, or Low-Level world--book me passage, I'm there! :D
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
HEY! Them's fighten words! Slander me with that name again and you'll wish you'd never left the safety of the gravity of your homeworld. Calling me Trader Jim indeed! All your Tav'chredl and Hivers won't stand a chance against the favours I can call in among the Vargr Corsairs
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A thousand pardons, Far-Trader. I got my traders confused... and indeed, I am penitent... :0)
 
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
If you use HePlar or other "thrust" based m-drives (vs the falling into an artificial gravity well type) - then anything with a 1G acceleration or better would of necessity have more than enough structural reinforcement for sitting on land as long as the local gravity didn't exceed the drive rating.

However, unless the ship was designed to land, the structural reinforcement may not be in the right locations. This goes along with the landing gear statement and the issue of the landing pad for large ships. Both of which are addressed if the large ships land in water (though there are other implications for design that water landing creates.)

The question is at what level does the starport provide the intertubes and drinks with umbrella's? ;)
That's kind of what I was getting at but didn't put it so well. The structure would be okay for acceleration, but probably not so good for landing. What happens when a configuration like the High Lightning class lands on a planet? It's configuration is a tail sitter, but that's got to be totally impractical. If it lands horizontally there will have to be some interesting terminal facilities to handle the 90 degree shift in gravity when entering or leaving the ship.

Another problem is that a large number of small ships only have 1G of acceleration. That makes a vertical landing/takeoff impossible on a planet with more than 1G gravity. Perhaps that's a logical explanation for the streamlining and potential runway use.
 
Originally posted by the Bromgrev:
Just because the rules don't explicitly say big ship's can't land, doesn't mean to say they can ...
I think several versions of the game define atmospheric streamlining or airframe construction being possible for ships and allowing them to land on planets. Others talk about semi-streamlined versus streamlined. So, I don't think I'd go so far as to assume the rules let you build these things and have them be pointless. This is a case where the implication of the construction rules is pretty clear (you can build these systems onto large ships, presumably to a purpose) and there is no contrarian statement indicating such landings are not possible. So taken together, that strongly augurs in favour of it being possible.

At higher TL, we have antigrav and all sorts of funky flying cities and stuff like that. Why anyone would balk at having an ability to land a 100Kton liner in a world that can hit enemy targets at hundreds of thousands of kilometers is beyond me... :)
 
Originally posted by Marvo:
Now the big question... what happens if you activate your jump drive while sitting on the tarmac?
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You get to roll up new characters and the ref has to redo the UPP for the planet
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Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marvo:
Now the big question... what happens if you activate your jump drive while sitting on the tarmac?
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You get to roll up new characters and the ref has to redo the UPP for the planet
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</font>[/QUOTE]This is why, IMTU, at any decent size starport, ALL ships are brought in by a harbour pilot, and dangerous things like turrets and jump drives are locked off. Try to take off without the harbour pilot unlocking it, and your engineer has some bypassing to do. Not impossible, but the idea is an average engineer won't fix it this side of the 100D line.
Realistically, starships are just too darn dangerous to bring into a port, especially given the sort of gung-ho characters who usually crew the things!
 
Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Marvo:
Another problem is that a large number of small ships only have 1G of acceleration. That makes a vertical landing/takeoff impossible on a planet with more than 1G gravity. Perhaps that's a logical explanation for the streamlining and potential runway use.
...although the Starship Operators's Manual suggests they "throttle-up" to a greater than 100% thrust (400% in the case of a 1g thruster landing horizontally).

But only for a few minutes (which is why you ensure you employ a good engineer).

Still, I *like* the idea of saving a few credits by allowing airframe craft to glide down to land...
 
Hi !

Just think of a tiny ship - with a size of a pregnant Queen Mary II - so around 345 m long, 75 m wide, 70 m high, approaching the landing area of a dirtsite starport or a large troop transport approaching a battle field...
Don't you think, that this is just a MUST HAVE for Traveller ?


Well, the rules do not have problems with that, and at least with MT m-drives and the IC/CG stuff it shouldn't be a problem anyway.

But even with regular constructions I don't see a mass/Dton limit here in this range.
Just consider the real world Queen Mary II. This is a 31 kDton vessel in Traveller terms and it is not considered to break apart if sitting in a dry dock or on sand


The theoretical size limits for stable structures are pretty high....usually above the tiny Traveller ship sizes.

Regards,

TE
 
Keep in mind, in old CT (HG?) rules, it was easier to build high-G ships that were larger rather than smaller. So some of your 4G+ ships are big ships. This would mean that your large ships should have no problem landing.

I further assume that anything large like a 100K dTon ship that lands still has the usual issue of taking its powerplant offline. That kills (under normal circumstances) antigravity and if you've got your decks mis-aligned with local gravity, hilarity ensues. So how do we get around this? I think modern jets use auxilliary (external) power feeds to run some onboard systems while sitting in an embarkation/debarkation slip at an airport. I assume high tech, high quality ports have similar large (standardized) power feeds to provide power for anti-grav and similar sorts of systems while the ship is in port, even with the ship's main power offline. I'm sure the ship itself has enough battery capacity for a day or more with the main plant offline, but I'm also sure that they'd take a feed if it was available.

I know Traveller isn't Lucasville, but the image of battalions of Imperial Marines loading on large warhulls and getting ready to majestically head off on a campaign could be compelling. Certainly bulk goods transfer could be expidited like this (among other ways). Nothing says "Listen to Uncle Strephon" like a huge ship landing at your local port and dwarfing all the surroundings and disgorging a brigade of Imperial Marines.
 
Originally posted by Marvo:
Now the big question... what happens if you activate your jump drive while sitting on the tarmac?
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On a 1G planet you need to make a Formidable+2 task roll or misjump. Reasoning here (at bottom of 'gravity' model).

Regards PLST
 
Is there anything to suggest that jumping out of a starport would create collateral damage to the surroundings, or would you simply be magnifying the chances of a misjump by a huge amount?

From what I have read on this thread there are now two potential ways in which a starship can wreck a downport:

1. Through misuse of the fusion plant
2. By activating the jump drive whilst in port.

If such actions were possible, taking out a starport would be a very simple process. Perps fly in and either rig up the fusion drive on their ship as a timed bomb or put some sort of timer on the J-drive. Then they just leave.

So my questions:

A1. Which is more probable? That jumping from a starport does or does not cause damage?

A2. Which is more probable? That the fusion plant on a ship can or cannot be turned into a potential nuclear device?

B1. If the answers to either or both A1 and A2 is that it's more probable for damage / nuclear device, then how does a starport protect itself?

If either of these methods are feasible it seems like a much easier way to launch a pre-emptive strike than using a navy.

Ravs
 
Originally posted by ravs:
Is there anything to suggest that jumping out of a starport would create collateral damage to the surroundings, or would you simply be magnifying the chances of a misjump by a huge amount?
Well my answer above was largely facetious :D Not terribly helpful, so I apologize and offer the following as penance...

Suggest yes, prove no. The amount of energy involved in ripping a hole in space into jumpspace suggests a huge energy release. The amount of fuel used also suggests (unless you use the jump ballon idea) a huge energy release. The nature of jumpspace itself being violently hostile to normal space and material not protected by a jump grid suggests bad things for the local environment in close proximity to the open hole to jumpspace.

The ship IS going to have the misjump DM for inside 10D so they may even survive and simply be somewhere else. There are no rules that very close proximity jumps are more dangerous than close (10D) proximity ones. I wouldn't let anyone willfully attempting such a thing survive though.

Originally posted by ravs:
From what I have read on this thread there are now two potential ways in which a starship can wreck a downport:

1. Through misuse of the fusion plant
2. By activating the jump drive whilst in port.

If such actions were possible, taking out a starport would be a very simple process. Perps fly in and either rig up the fusion drive on their ship as a timed bomb or put some sort of timer on the J-drive. Then they just leave.

So my questions:

A1. Which is more probable? That jumping from a starport does or does not cause damage?

A2. Which is more probable? That the fusion plant on a ship can or cannot be turned into a potential nuclear device?

B1. If the answers to either or both A1 and A2 is that it's more probable for damage / nuclear device, then how does a starport protect itself?

If either of these methods are feasible it seems like a much easier way to launch a pre-emptive strike than using a navy.

Yep, and yet there doesn't seem to have been a rash of such incidents. We may speculate that no one in the OTU is so desperate or whatever to employ such expensive methods or, as in MTU...

All starships are built with hardwired failsafes to prevent dangerous tampering and employment.

Powerplants cannot be overloaded and exploded, they simply shut down with a hardwired lockout of the system in such a case.

Jump Drives cannot be initiated in very close (less than 1D?) proximity to a gravity source and any attempt to do so will result in a hardwired lockout of the system.

Navigation programs have built in collision avoidance overrides. So no autopilot high vee impact craters. Though a pilot may manually fly into something or set up the ship on a collision course far enough away to avoid the override and then attempt to disable the program. However such an attempt to interrupt a flight program in use will probably result in the computer initiating a hardwired emergency all stop and lockout of the Maneuver drive.

The Imperium, and every other star-faring polity, has had millenia to perfect the safety sytems to prevent such idiocy. I think if the players can think of it someone else has already considered it and come up with a way to prevent it. All that's left to the ref is to describe why it fails and then book the character(s) on the next prison transport
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Yup, there are several layers of safety locks preventing this. It's possible to get around them - and it will have happened many times over the centuries - but it's very difficult.
 
Thanks Dan, I think that internal, unbreakable failsafes must be the answer.

The fact that neither form of destruction has been used in any canon literature (as far as I am aware) fortifies the point.

Ravs
 
BSG's "Jump in atmo" scene was very good for this purpose... the ship jumped into a stationary position above the 'target', and began to fall towards the planet.

As it fell, they launched fighters (that survived the passage thru the 'plasma' generated by friction), and afterwards, as the ship was rapidly approaching the ground, Galactica jumped back into space. The 'thundercrack' was pronounced (I would speculate it was caused by the 'implosion' of air into the space where the ship had been) and raised debris/pebbles/etc. on the ground (about a half-mile or so below the jump point).

I'd say that a stationary jump out of a starport would cause a similar 'thundercrack', a shock wave of air rushing into the volume formerly occupied by the ship first imploding towards the 'center' of the jump point, and then rippling back outwards accordingly, doing minor (if any) damage to facilities beyond a good sandblasting. Of course, the size of the ship in dtons would be the exact measure of the intensity of the implosion (displacement is the issue).

Thoughts?
 
The only thought I have is that I thought the scene you're describing was one of the most spectacular, brilliant, insane things I've ever seen in a scifi show


Wasn't there a bit in Bab5 when a whitestar was in a gas giant atmosphere and had to make a jump too? IIRC that was pretty spectacular too.
 
Agreed. Here in Mickiville that scene was on a loop for a while - I showed it to a few friends who weren't BSG watchers and now they are. GREAT DRAMA.

Never saw that B5 scene (I wasn't a big B5 watcher) - but I'll google it, find the episode number and hit up one of my B5 geeks friends to show me a copy
 
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