CT Only: Experience

[Supplement Four]

The Second Career thread got a little side tracked with comments on CT Experience, and I think the topic needs its own discussion.

First, I think that CT Experience is a very useful tool for growing a character immediately out of character generation and ongoing throughout the character's career.

Second, I think the Experience chapter (page 103 of TTB) is poorly worded and general in vibe. It almost feels as if the chapter were meant to give the Ref ideas and a direction to go rather than hard and fast rules for experience. The Alternatives section is exactly that.



Education Focus & Sabbatical

How does the 8+ Determination roll work with the Education focus? Is the Determination roll needed at all?

If a character can complete 2 Education sessions per week, then why is the limit to the EDU increase +6 instead of +8 in a four year term?

Does the Sabbatical require the Determination roll? Or, with the Sabbatical, does the character just put his time in (and pay for the education) and get the EDU +2 increase at the end of four years--no roll required?

I created this thread to talk about things like this as well as other methods of Experience created by the Ref (and even the system shown in Book 4).

 

[Supplement Four]

EDUCATION - SABBATICAL

This option simulates a college career. It requires four years. The cost is Cr70,000. Whether a roll is required depends on how you read the Experience chapter of TTB. And, when a character accomplishes that, his EDU is lifted by +2 (but cannot be raised higher than INT).



Comments.

What's interesting is that, if, out of chargen, a character has a higher EDU than INT, then the Sabbatical is not an option.

The Education lift can also be read so that, if a character starts with INT-7, EDU-6, then he could end with INT-7, EDU-8, which is one point higher than INT.



Book 6.

Scouts is the first time that we see a pre-enlistment option that allows for College. There is an Admission throw, a throw for Success, and a check for Honors. Book 7 duplicates the College system exactly.

The difference in College and the Sabbatical is that College requires throws for Admission, Success, and Honors. It is debatable if the Sabbatical requires the 8+ Determination throw.

Second, College returns 1D6-2 increase to EDU. There's a chance EDU is not increased at all even though time was spent in College. The Sabbatical guarantees EDU +2.



In My Games

I would allow the player to make the choice. I'd allow the College option for Book 1/TTB characters. I'd also allow the Sabbatical to be taken first, at age 18, just before the Book 1 enlistment throw is made.

I'd allow the Education Focus, the Book 4 training method, and any Ref Variants that I might have after chargen and during the game.



Why Increase EDU?

Beyond the obvious benefit of higher attributes, remember the Maximum Skills rule that says a character can generally have a maximum number of skill levels equal to or less than the sum of a character's INT + EDU.

And, the Experience rules tell us that, basically, INT cannot be improved outside of Chargen (not unless the Ref makes a House Rule under the Variant section). And, we are told that EDU cannot be improved unless EDU is lower than INT.
B

 

[Supplement Four]

2 Questions

Q1: How, exactly, do you think the Sabbatical works? Is a Determination roll required? How should this option work by RAW?



Q2: How, exactly, do you think the Education Expertise Focus should be implemented? Are one or more rolls required? How should this option work by RAW?

 

[mike wightman]

Where are you getting your sabbatical rules from because they are not by the book.

Education: A character with an education characteristic lower than his or her intelligence characteristic may improve education level through the use of correspondence courses and tutoring. In general such courses (or tutors) have a base price of CR 50 per week. Generally one session per week is taken, though 2 per week are possible. After 50 sessions are completed the character's education level is increased by one. In one four year period, it is possible to increase the education characteristic a maximum of 6 levels.

Education increases gained are permanent.

In addition, any character may, once during his or her life, take a sabbatical (for 4 years) for the purpose of specifically gaining a skill through education. Such activity is the equivalent of a technical school or college education, and allows the acquisition of one specific non-weapon skill with a level of 2. Cost of this education is CR 70,000.

There is no mention of the sabbatical increasing EDU (I have a house rule that your EDU is raised to 8 along with the 2 levels of technical skills).

 

[Supplement Four]

Where are you getting your sabbatical rules from because they are not by the book.

There is no mention of the sabbatical increasing EDU (I have a house rule that your EDU is raised to 8 along with the 2 levels of technical skills).

Another good catch, Sigg! Keep me on my toes!

I was writing by memory. Now that I pulled the book out, you are correct, of course. I must have used the Sabbatical as a EDU +2 somewhere in the past as a House Rule.

It's foggy, but I think I used to use the Sabbatical as college for characters, getting +2 EDU, back before I purchased Book 6. Or, maybe I ignored Book 6 and used the Sabbatical this way as a different option--something like that.

 

[whulorigan]

Book 6.

Scouts is the first time that we see a pre-enlistment option that allows for College. There is an Admission throw, a throw for Success, and a check for Honors. Book 7 duplicates the College system exactly.

The difference in College and the Sabbatical is that College requires throws for Admission, Success, and Honors. It is debatable if the Sabbatical requires the 8+ Determination throw.

Second, College returns 1D6-2 increase to EDU. There's a chance EDU is not increased at all even though time was spent in College. The Sabbatical guarantees EDU +2.

Actually, college (with the option of NOTC) was first introduced in Book 5 High Guard (it is distinct from Naval Academy, which is a second option). Medical School is also introduced as a Graduate School Option here.

Note: There was also a JTAS article that introduced Military Academy for Mercenary Characters.

 

[Supplement Four]

Education Focus RAW

EXPERIENCE - EDUCATION

Here's how I read the book.



1. Prerequisites: EDU must be lower than INT. Otherwise, this option not possible.

2. Dedication Roll: Roll 8+ to stay dedicated and complete the four year program. If unsuccessful, the character does not benefit at this time. Another check at Dedication can be made in one year.

3. 50 Sessions. If the Dedication roll is accomplished, a character can complete a number of sessions in a four year period. Normally, a session requires one week. Two sessions are possible (and I would refer to the Ref's judgement on this). After 50 sessions are completed, the character's EDU is increased by +1. These increases are permanent. The maximum EDU increase in any four year period is +6 EDU.





When EDU is lower than INT.

The way I read the rule, the program can be started only if EDU is lower than INT, but this is checked only every four years.

So, this is possible....

Fred has INT-6 and EDU-5. He rolls his 8+ Dedication and is successful, which means that he can use the Education sessions to increase his EDU, and he can do this for four years.

Fred does this all four years and takes some accelerated courses (where he gets two sessions in a single week), and ends up with +6 EDU by the end of the four year period.

Fred now hows INT-6 and EDU-B.

Now that Fred's EDU is higher than his INT, he cannot attempt a second four year program to increase his EDU.

 

[Supplement Four]

Actually, college (with the option of NOTC) was first introduced in Book 5 High Guard (it is distinct from Naval Academy, which is a second option). Medical School is also introduced as a Graduate School Option here.

I must have missed that with my quick skim. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[mike wightman]

Q1: How, exactly, do you think the Sabbatical works? Is a Determination roll required? How should this option work by RAW?

As I have posted a few times, my interpretation is that any character can take a sabbatical once in their life with no dedication roll since they have to pay a lot for it upfront and it appears to be written as a special case.
Note that I can equally see how the rules as written would require a dedication roll - in which case do you spend Cr70,000 and age 4 years - possibly losing 4 years of game time too - for nothing? Or does failure just mean you have to wait a year to try again?

I allow players to take a sabbatical immediately upon mustering out, if they have the money from mustering out benefits.

Q2: How, exactly, do you think the Education Expertise Focus should be implemented? Are one or more rolls required? How should this option work by RAW?

One roll per year until dedication roll is made, then over the next four years Edu can be raised as per the rules as written.

I have a house rule that allows the correspondence course approach to also be used to learn technical skills, roll dedication spend your Cr50 per session, 50 sessions later you have a skill at 1 (total cost is Cr2500), fail the dedication roll and spend the money and pay lip service to the skill and you get it at level 0.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sabbatical - RAW

Here's how I read the Sabbatical as written in the book.



1. Dedication: 8+ roll must be made to attempt any of the Self Improvement programs, and the Sabbatical is a version of the Education program. If the roll is failed, then the Sabbatical can be attempted again the following year.

2. 4 Years: The character is taken out of play for four game years as the character goes to school.

3. Skill-2: At the end of the four year training period, the character is awarded one non-weapon skill at Level-2. This is a permanent skill award.





Two Skill-1?

Although the book doesn't read this way, I don't see an issue with the character gaining two non-weapon skills at Level-1 each, with the approval of the Ref (especially if the skills are related). I'd use this as a House Rule.



Dedication Played Differently

Another House Rule that I would consider is to have the Sabbatical last longer than four years. As written, failing the Dedication roll does not take the character out of play. What I'm suggesting here is that the character is taken out of play and goes to college. Sometime, people need 5 or 6 six years to gain their Bachelor's Degree. This can be simulated with the Dedication throw.

Under this House Rule Version, the character would be taken out of play and considered attending college or a technical school. Then, the 8+ Dedication roll is made. If successful, the character completes the Sabbatical in four years. If not successful, then a second Dedication roll is made. If that second roll is successful, the Sabbatical takes five years. And so on.



Pre-enlistment Option?

I also think that, as a House Rule, the Sabbatical can be used as a pre-enlistment option. The character is 18 and spends his first "term" is the Sabbatical that takes four years. The 8+ Dedication roll must be made, or the Sabbatical is failed. And, the character starts character generation normally.

I would give the player a choice of using this version of the Sabbatical or the standard College rules that are seen in Books 5, 6, and 7.

Idea: A Ref could even go so far as to use the Sabbatical as "graduate school", allowing College, as shown in Books 5, 6, and 7, first, then allowing the character to take a Sabbatical directly after college.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Second Career thread got a little side tracked with comments on CT Experience, and I think the topic needs its own discussion.

First, I think that CT Experience is a very useful tool for growing a character immediately out of character generation and ongoing throughout the character's career.

Second, I think the Experience chapter (page 103 of TTB) is poorly worded and general in vibe. It almost feels as if the chapter were meant to give the Ref ideas and a direction to go rather than hard and fast rules for experience. The Alternatives section is exactly that.



Education Focus & Sabbatical

How does the 8+ Determination roll work with the Education focus? Is the Determination roll needed at all?

If a character can complete 2 Education sessions per week, then why is the limit to the EDU increase +6 instead of +8 in a four year term?

Does the Sabbatical require the Determination roll? Or, with the Sabbatical, does the character just put his time in (and pay for the education) and get the EDU +2 increase at the end of four years--no roll required?

I created this thread to talk about things like this as well as other methods of Experience created by the Ref (and even the system shown in Book 4).

I think it was worded that way to prevent abuse by players to create a "super character" who had maxed out all skills and then some.

As per my observation on your Hits and Wounds thread, looking at D&D, we see that D&D adventuring is in essence and fact Traveller's chargen. It's why in that game you start out as a young warrior or such (or not) as you see fit. And as you gain experience you get more HPs and such to reflect your worldliness in confronting threats or problems in a low tech fantasy world. So it's a different dynamic.

Back to chargen … after a break.

 

[BlackBat242]

Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine
Journal of the Travellers Aid Society No. 22, p.18-23, 30

Character generation option.

 

[Supplement Four]

WEAPON EXPERTISE

The Weapon Expertise program is not written well at all, and it has taken me several reads to get it straight. Well, I think I have it straight. This is what I think RAW says.



1. Dedication: The 8+ throw is made. If not, try again in a year.

2. 1st Term: A Blade and a Gun skill are picked. Each is raised by one level for this four year period.

3. Permanent Skill-0: Any Level-0 skill picked in #2 becomes a permanent skill increase at the end of the four year period.

4. Non-Permanent Skills: Any other skill chosen for the program, at Skill-1 or higher, does not have a permanent increase. A second four year term is needed to make the skill increase permanent.



In effect, Skill-0 skills are made permanent in 4 years, and a character can raise two Skill-0 skills to Skill-1 permanency every 4 years of gameplay IF the Determination roll is made.

Skill-1 skills are raised immediately to Skill-2, and these become permanent after 8 years. Level-2 skills and above are treated like this as well.



THE EXAMPLE IN THE BOOK.

Our character is Johnson. Straight out of Character Generation (or whenever), Johnson has only one skill: Revolver-3.

Using the Weapon Default rule, Johnson also has Foil-0.



Johnson follows the Weapon Expertise program. He makes the 8+ Dedication roll.

For the next four years, Johnson uses these skills: Foil-1 and Revolver-4.



For some reason, Johnson decides not to continue the training. Maybe he doesn't have time in the campaign. Maybe he bricked the next 8+ Dedication roll. Maybe he can't afford it. Maybe he's serving a sentence on Pysadi for abducting anolas. For whatever reason, he can't train.

Thus, he voluntarily discontinues the training.

When this happens, Johnson's skills revert to Foil-1 and Revolver-3.



Then, Johnson attempts training those two skills again. He makes the Determination roll.

Now, Foil is at Expertise-1, so it is treated differently than it was above when it was a Level-0 skill.

Johnson's skills become Foil-2 and Revolver-4.



At the end of this four year block, again Johnson cannot continue with training.

So, his Blade skill drops back to Foil-1.

But, his Gun skill becomes permanent at Revolver-4 because this term was the permanency term for the revolver (not the foil).



In other words, Level-0 skills have their permanency terms on the first four year term. Level-1 and higher skills require two terms, or 8 years, to become permanent.

Looked at from a different angle, Level-0 skills require only one successful Dedication roll (and 4 years of training, even though the increase is immediate) to become permanent.

Level-1 and higher skills require two successful Dedication rolls and 8 years of training to become permanent, even though the increase is immediate.

 

[Supplement Four]

Maximum Skills

So, here's a question.

The Maximum Skill rule (page 29 TTB) says that, generally, a character cannot have more skills or skill levels than the total of INT + EDU (this is sometimes referred to as the character's "Expertise").

If a character comes out of CharGen breaking that rule--having more skills or skill levels than his Expertise would allow--what should a Ref do?

My answer? Nothing. Allow it. I don't think the intention of the rule was to walk back skills gained in CharGen.

The character just can't partake of the Experience rules unless the character raises his EDU. And, EDU cannot be raised unless it is lower than INT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Brand New Skills

Looking a the page 103 TTB Experience rules, it seems that the only way to learn brand new skills is through the one-time use Sabbatical option.

A Ref could rule that the character can use a Default skill--even a non-standard Default skill, but these are Level-0 skills. There is no way to improve non-weapon Level-0 skills given the Experience rules on page 103 outside of the Ref creating something on his own via the Alternatives rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Skill Improvement Program

Here's how I read the Skill Improvement Program from page 103.



1. Prerequisite: Two Non-Weapon skills are chosen for improvement. The character must have at least Level-1 expertise in each skill.

2. Dedication: The 8+ throw is made. If not successful, the program is not possible, but the character can try again after one game year.

3. Skill Improvement: If the Dedication roll is successful, then both skills are increased by one level immediately. This works like the Level-1 or higher weapon skills in that two four year terms (and two Dedication rolls) are required to make the skill increase permanent. Otherwise, the skills revert to their original level after the first four year term.

 

[Supplement Four]

Physical Fitness

Here's how I read the RAW on the Physical Fitness program.



1. Dedication: The 8+ roll is made, but this time, it is made with modifiers. +2 DM if INT 8-; +4 DM if INT 5-. If the throw is not successful, the the program is not carried out, and the character can try again in one game year.

2. Physical Improvement: If the Dedication roll is made, then the character's three physical attributes (STR, DEX, and END) are all increased by +1. Attributes cannot be increased past 15 (I'm assuming this is directed at humans, which is the only type of PC in TTB).

3. Never Permanent: Attribute increases are never permanent. The character must make the Dedication roll once every four years, or the character's physical attributes revert to their original levels. In effect the increase in physical stats remains as long as the character remains dedicated to a work out program.

 

[Blue Ghost]

So, here's a question.

The Maximum Skill rule (page 29 TTB) says that, generally, a character cannot have more skills or skill levels than the total of INT + EDU (this is sometimes referred to as the character's "Expertise").

If a character comes out of CharGen breaking that rule--having more skills or skill levels than his Expertise would allow--what should a Ref do?

My answer? Nothing. Allow it. I don't think the intention of the rule was to walk back skills gained in CharGen.

The character just can't partake of the Experience rules unless the character raises his EDU. And, EDU cannot be raised unless it is lower than INT.

I think the rules state to penalize another skill. You can have as many skills as you like, but the level of proficiency goes down. I think the extreme example the books gives is that you could have all the skills listed, but nearly all of them would be Zero level, with the rest taking up your sum total of Int and Edu.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Here's how I read the RAW on the Physical Fitness program.



1. Dedication: The 8+ roll is made, but this time, it is made with modifiers. +2 DM if INT 8-; +4 DM if INT 5-. If the throw is not successful, the the program is not carried out, and the character can try again in one game year.

2. Physical Improvement: If the Dedication roll is made, then the character's three physical attributes (STR, DEX, and END) are all increased by +1. Attributes cannot be increased past 15 (I'm assuming this is directed at humans, which is the only type of PC in TTB).

3. Never Permanent: Attribute increases are never permanent. The character must make the Dedication roll once every four years, or the character's physical attributes revert to their original levels. In effect the increase in physical stats remains as long as the character remains dedicated to a work out program.

My players were adamant that the dedication roll be more frequent. Having dropped nearly 100 pounds in just under three months time, I didn't see that as unreasonable, also given the workout results of the big aerobics and gym craze at the time. But, like I say, Traveller is about playing out your retirement, so you're effectively playing in your golden years when you've past your prime (mostly). Unlike D&D where you're heading for your peak, or are at your prime.

Just my two bits.

 

[mike wightman]

The maximum skills introduced in TTB never made it to my table - I consider it a silly and unnecessary restriction to a character, not to mention you will have to cross out many of the sample characters in 1001 Characters, LBB4, Veterans

On the flip side I don't think I've ever had a player generate a character where this rule would be restrictive - apart from the advanced character generation systems of LBB4-7.