Supplement Four
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Except that the limit is a good reason to increase your EDU.
And, it is a good penalty for characters with low INT and EDU.
CT Only: Experience
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Except that the limit is a good reason to increase your EDU.
And, it is a good penalty for characters with low INT and EDU.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
I'm not saying this is wrong... But seems like a lot of rules maneuvering for an advantage that might never come up in play. (Using the Basic Traveller rules most PCs won't be bumping into that skill level limit.)
For me increasing Education means the PC knows more stuff... So when Throws are made to know things the PC has a better chance of having heard how some unique and important feature of some culture's festival dance works, or to recognize the alien armor they just found is made of Whathaverum, which is only found on the world of Dangerplace... and things like that.
As for the dedication Throw... this thread has made me realize I would dump it. The game already makes the players choose one form of improvement over another. I don't see why making a throw to see if they get nothing is either required, helpful, or fun. The game was clearly set up for long term play within the fiction... Travel times eat up months, drugs are available to alter aging, rolls need to be made to see if aging weakens you. So waiting a year for another shot kinds of makes sense. But I see the Experience rules as a chance for the Player to round out his character a little as he sees fit. I'd like to just hand that to him.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
As to the Instruction mechanic, I have some very specific thoughts, but in general the idea would be that rarity, access, time available and cost would be tied to how difficult it is to have an instructor that has both Instruction and the desired skill.
As a rule of thumb, roll 2d6 at or under pop stat of planet you are on to see if classes are available for a specific skill. LL and TL may be limiters as well depending on the skill in question.
Instruction-1 and Skill-1 yields taught Skill-0, and should be as common as adult education, technical school and/or junior college to get. 1d6 weeks to wait for the next class.
Instruction-2/Skill-2 yields Skill-1, and should start costing serious money to get- and remember, good chance it will take two tries to get it. 1d6 months for the next one.
Instruction-3/Skill-3 yields Skill-2, and would be the equivalent of getting a master at their craft, the class that is only provided once a year that everyone vies to get into, and makes careers. 2d6 months for the next class.
Instructon-4/Skill-4 yielding Skill-3 gets into rare territory, very few people even of a huge civilization are going to have this combination. Think 1d6 years for the next class, a lot of money, AND impressing the teacher with your potential.
Instruction-5+/Skill-5+ is a legendary teacher, a sensei, and there is no regular schedule for such capable instructors. This will only happen with the student being voluntarily taken on and showing talent, need, and potentially a lot of money- or none at all.
Each level of skill should require having the previous skill level, no going Skill-0 to Skill-2.
To be really harsh and limit the abuse of this mechanic, rule that if a character fails instruction twice, they cannot learn anymore from Instruction for that skill.
Cost IMO would be cost of instructor's time if they were doing the job x2 for facility expenses, profits, increased pay for being an instructor, etc., x level of skill to be imparted (treat 0 as 1). Divide in half for the six month part-time 'evening class' cycle rather then the intense six-week training.
For instance, pilots cost Cr5000 per month, intense training is six weeks so Cr7500x2= Cr15000- Cr 7500 for a relaxed class.
Don't forget to charge for living expenses during the intense version if there isn't an employer providing room and food.
As a rule of thumb, roll 2d6 at or under pop stat of planet you are on to see if classes are available for a specific skill. LL and TL may be limiters as well depending on the skill in question.
Instruction-1 and Skill-1 yields taught Skill-0, and should be as common as adult education, technical school and/or junior college to get. 1d6 weeks to wait for the next class.
Instruction-2/Skill-2 yields Skill-1, and should start costing serious money to get- and remember, good chance it will take two tries to get it. 1d6 months for the next one.
Instruction-3/Skill-3 yields Skill-2, and would be the equivalent of getting a master at their craft, the class that is only provided once a year that everyone vies to get into, and makes careers. 2d6 months for the next class.
Instructon-4/Skill-4 yielding Skill-3 gets into rare territory, very few people even of a huge civilization are going to have this combination. Think 1d6 years for the next class, a lot of money, AND impressing the teacher with your potential.
Instruction-5+/Skill-5+ is a legendary teacher, a sensei, and there is no regular schedule for such capable instructors. This will only happen with the student being voluntarily taken on and showing talent, need, and potentially a lot of money- or none at all.
Each level of skill should require having the previous skill level, no going Skill-0 to Skill-2.
To be really harsh and limit the abuse of this mechanic, rule that if a character fails instruction twice, they cannot learn anymore from Instruction for that skill.
Cost IMO would be cost of instructor's time if they were doing the job x2 for facility expenses, profits, increased pay for being an instructor, etc., x level of skill to be imparted (treat 0 as 1). Divide in half for the six month part-time 'evening class' cycle rather then the intense six-week training.
For instance, pilots cost Cr5000 per month, intense training is six weeks so Cr7500x2= Cr15000- Cr 7500 for a relaxed class.
Don't forget to charge for living expenses during the intense version if there isn't an employer providing room and food.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
So let's look at the cost of getting Pilot-2 in 18 weeks. Cr15000 for Pilot-0, Cr15000 for Pilot-1, and Pilot-2 for Cr30000, for a total of Cr60000 plus expenses.
However that assumes success for all three sessions, and no downtime between classes. It's more likely that at least one if not two sessions will be a failure, let's say one of the cheaper Pilot sessions fail, now the cost is 24 weeks and Cr75000 plus expenses.
With my time differences between classes, could easily run 1-1.5 years to get Pilot-2.
With the relaxed six month class cycle we would be talking Cr30000 for successful three sessions in a row and 1.5 years. Again, more likely fails, so call it average 3 years and Cr45000, plus picking up odd jobs in-between classes- looks more like the sabbatical in time and a little below cost, depending on how much 'life cost' is incurred.
Of course if the character goes off adventuring, the fee and any skill build for that class is lost.
However that assumes success for all three sessions, and no downtime between classes. It's more likely that at least one if not two sessions will be a failure, let's say one of the cheaper Pilot sessions fail, now the cost is 24 weeks and Cr75000 plus expenses.
With my time differences between classes, could easily run 1-1.5 years to get Pilot-2.
With the relaxed six month class cycle we would be talking Cr30000 for successful three sessions in a row and 1.5 years. Again, more likely fails, so call it average 3 years and Cr45000, plus picking up odd jobs in-between classes- looks more like the sabbatical in time and a little below cost, depending on how much 'life cost' is incurred.
Of course if the character goes off adventuring, the fee and any skill build for that class is lost.
Supplement Four
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You might, if you roll low for INT and EDU, especially for a character who went several terms in Chargen and uses the experience system.
Sure, but how much of a motivation is it to use the Experience rules to increase EDU for that?
Yet, if a character has INT 3, EDU 2, and has skills AutoRifle-3, Computer-1, and ATV-1, then there is a real incentive to put in the time and money to up that EDU.
And, the way I read RAW, the character must start the EDU system with EDU lower than INT, but can go through the full four years, upping his EDU as much as +6.
Thus, the character could become INT 3, EDU 8, which gives him a lot of breathing room for his skills using the Experience system.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The main issue I have with the instruction skill is it breaks the elegance of the experience system granting skills at a similar rate to character generation.
Using LBB:8 robots you can build a robot with instruction 4 and 'skill of choice' 4 and thus train any skill to level 3... swap the skill program and you can quickly learn all the skills you want to at level 3.
Using LBB:8 robots you can build a robot with instruction 4 and 'skill of choice' 4 and thus train any skill to level 3... swap the skill program and you can quickly learn all the skills you want to at level 3.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Yup.
But for whatever reason I'm not seeing the fun or value really kicking in. Especially when one considers Mike's point: the Basic Traveller character system works great.
Now keep in mind I've really never cracked open TTB that often. So my expectations of Traveller come from the LBBs. And those work fine as is without the rule being there. I'm used to them not being there.
Yea, that's a concern I have with the Instruction skill (hadn't even thought about robots...). Of course other than Supplement 4, the Instruction skill is an advanced chargen skill, and that already gives more skills...
As to disposing of the dedication roll, I'm not comfortable with totally eliminating it, so I decided to just give advantageous DMs for attributes (and now, there's a reason to work on EDU, bump your EDU up and you can get an advantageous DM on practicing skills that are advantaged by high EDU).
As to INT+EDU incentivizing improving EDU, that only works if EDU is lower than INT. So the INT 2, EDU 3 character is forever limited to 5 skill levels...
Frank
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
And one more thought about skill level caps:
The character generation system already has a limiter for,skills: the tension between gaining more experience and the effects of aging.
Adding in the EDU limit skews that -- to the point where some with a low EDU might as well bail on a service after a term or two. (Yes, he could roll on the development table hoping to get more EDU... But that is now a different game.)
That blows the mini-game... And that isn't something I would like to lose.
The character generation system already has a limiter for,skills: the tension between gaining more experience and the effects of aging.
Adding in the EDU limit skews that -- to the point where some with a low EDU might as well bail on a service after a term or two. (Yes, he could roll on the development table hoping to get more EDU... But that is now a different game.)
That blows the mini-game... And that isn't something I would like to lose.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Ya, the bot thing.
I thought about having a class availability on TL or less roll on planet strictly on the CBI/robot front.
And maybe that IS what is going to happen in RL.
But the Traveller thing is about humans, and so I largely ignored it.
I'd strongly suggest greatly limiting Instruction by bot.
The Instruction skill definition in LBB4 says that skills are the highest value in trade a character has, and that it should be sparingly and carefully allowed to not be abusive.
I think the numbers I have tend more towards 3-4 years and a lot of trouble given having to be on a high pop planet, possibly illegal for the 'good' skills, and very start/stop time eating and costly do-overs. More like a detailed version of the sabbatical or experience process.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Now that part is where the 'whatever the referee allows' part comes in.
Perhaps the character gets a Flowers for Algernon serum?
This.
As I mentioned further back in this thread, D&D's XP mechanic is Traveller's Chargen. I hate to repeat myself, but no one has replied to my concept in that Traveller could incorporate children and young adults with an XP-Level system that could be applied towards a skill.
That way if you want to include younger players into the themes the game addresses, you could do that, keep it law and order oriented, and still keep it G-rated or PG-rated.
Just my two bits.
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Good point, note of course that the limit came after the optional rule that a failed survival roll just ended chargen, not killed the character, and I feel like that started to become standard. So that rule of course breaks the tension, so maybe the INT+EDU rule was necessary to restore some kind of balance.
Having not played TTB, I never saw the INT+EDU rule until recently...
Frank
You would need to:
1) create XP rules
Or
2) use a game system that allows for XP type gain and improvement
Personally, for kids, replacing the mechanics of CT with Fudge (and using Fudge dice) would be my go.
As someone already told, Instruction is taken from Advanced CharGen, that already gives you more skills.
See that the most you can obtain on it is by the commando school, where you can (being very lucky) gain up to 8 skills in a single year. This would represent spending all the year in intensive courses (as told in Instruction skill) and succeeding in all of them (8 skills @ 6 weeks each, 48 weeks, out of the 52 the year has).
You can always try to adapt the AT points system from MT...
But isn't what that what this thread is all about? I'm curious what kind of fudge concept you have in mind.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Fudge is a free game system that can be greatly customized for specific campaigns.
You get a small number of experience points each session and can spend them on gaining or improving abilities.
GT is another option, and doesn't require you customize anything, just pick the 3e or 4e version.
Supplement Four
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Yeah, I started with Starter Traveller, then switched to TTB. I've never really been a LBB guy.
But, I like CT in all its forms.
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