Experimenting with Hop Drive

[spank]

I've been thinking about Hop Drive again lately, and tinkering with some ship designs. Basic Hop drive isn't that different than Jump, just faster. But the intermediate steps are interesting to me.
I've been pushing around some numbers for Hop Drive Tech Level, Size, Fuel consumption Etc. T5 is not the most straight forward sometimes. Hop drive is one of those cases.
Hop is a TL-17 technology, and Experimental versions should be in the works 3 TLs sooner. But the book says
"A society at TL 16 cannot produce standard Hop Drives. It can produce a Hop-A for installation in a Hull-B as an Experimental Hop-2 (at 50% efficiency, round down to Hop-1) with various tonnage (x3), cost (x10), and fuel (x2) handicaps, and it would require a Jump Field based on Jump Plates. Nevertheless, the result is an improvement over most other options"
I thinks there are a few things going on here. First they are trying to protect the setting, If you follow the experimental at -3 TL rule you'd get Experimental Hop at TL14, Prototype Hop at TL15 and Early Hop at TL16. Which would be somewhat disruptive to the Imperium. The other is that they seem to be saying you either go atleast Hop-1 or not at all. No TL14 experimental Hops of 5 parsecs. No TL15 Prototype Hops of 8 Parsecs and No TL16 Hops of 9 Parsecs. To be honest I find this boring, the game is set on a 1 parsec map, so I think it's perfectly fine to allow 5 parsecs at Hop-0.5. It's experimental like Cugnot's Steam Wagon from 1769, a sign of things to come, but not something that's going to be commercial available or viable.
With that in mind I worked up a chart for the various variants of Hop drive. I also made a few alterations, such as adding "Hop 1.5" at TL 18 and adjusting some of the modifiers so they make a better progression.

This is what it looks like when applied to the drives. You can select a standard sized drive from the drive performance table, modify the cost and size. Then get the performance in Parsec from and Fuel consumption from this table.

 

[aramis]

The reason for no fractions on hop is the same as for Jump… You can’t get a jump 1.5, nor a 0.5…Because each level is a separate plane in parallel; the hop, skip, leap, bound, etc are, in cannon, not higher jump dimensions, but a different set of planes entirely. Which is also why a society might never develop jump, but discover hop at TL 13-15…

 

[Condottiere]

It's like parachuting.

You have to jump out of the plane, but get to have some control where you land, within a spherical error probable.

 

[whulorigan]

Also keep in mind the philosophy behind the TL Stage paradigm. "Experimental" (TL -3) is defined as one-of-a-kind hand-built items from custom-made parts constructed in the laboratory. It is the kind of thing a Nikola Tesla or other mad geniuses would be doing if it were original developmental research. Alternatively, on a world that is aware of the technical possibilities but simply has a lower TL base for whatever reason, Experimental represents the lowest level at which a hand-built monstrosity of a makeshift item can be cobbled together (e.g. an emergency repair on a low-tech world).

Prototype (TL -2) is where you would likely first see real research and test models with Megacorporations and the government, and Early (TL -1) would be your first limited availability non-mature tech production models.

Basic (TL +/-0) is your Early model built one TL Higher (at Standard mature TL when all the quirks have been worked out), with the corresponding price decrease and stable reliability compared to the Early model, alongside the Standard version.

Generic (TL +1) is the same thing for the Standard model as Basic was to the Early model, built at one TL higher than Standard when the tech has been around long enough that it is routine and everyone builds them at that higher tech level to solid reliability, and cheaply.

 

[spank]

The reason for no fractions on hop is the same as for Jump… You can’t get a jump 1.5, nor a 0.5…Because each level is a separate plane in parallel; the hop, skip, leap, bound, etc are, in cannon, not higher jump dimensions, but a different set of planes entirely. Which is also why a society might never develop jump, but discover hop at TL 13-15…

I understand the reasoning, but Jump 0.5 and 0.8 seem to be allowed, so why not Hop 0.8?
"Jump-0. Jump Drives with Jump Potential less than 1 can achieve Jump exactly equal to potential times 1 parsec
(Jump 0.5 achieves exactly 0.5 parsecs; Jump 0.8 achieves exactly 0.8 parsecs)."

 

[spank]

But, Riding one of these hand built monstrosities does seems like a great plot hook.

Also keep in mind the philosophy behind the TL Stage paradigm. "Experimental" (TL -3) is defined as one-of-a-kind hand-built items from custom-made parts constructed in the laboratory. It is the kind of thing a Nikola Tesla or other mad geniuses would be doing if it were original developmental research. Alternatively, on a world that is aware of the technical possibilities but simply has a lower TL base for whatever reason, Experimental represents the lowest level at which a hand-built monstrosity of a makeshift item can be cobbled together (e.g. an emergency repair on a low-tech world).

Prototype (TL -2) is where you would likely first see real research and test models with Megacorporations and the government, and Early (TL -1) would be your first limited availability non-mature tech production models.

Basic (TL +/-0) is your Early model built one TL Higher (at Standard mature TL when all the quirks have been worked out), with the corresponding price decrease and stable reliability compared to the Early model, alongside the Standard version.

Generic (TL +1) is the same thing for the Standard model as Basic was to the Early model, built at one TL higher than Standard when the tech has been around long enough that it is routine and everyone builds them at that higher tech level to solid reliability, and cheaply.

 

[whulorigan]

But, Riding one of these hand built monstrosities does seems like a great plot hook.

BTW, note that the Experimental Column on the T5 Table appears to have an errata issue, in that TL6 and TL7 should both be J-0 (0.5), and the existing entry for TL7 should be TL8 (and so on down the column pushíng each entry down-column by one). The last entry [J-5 (5.0)] should not exist.

I personally think that the first entry at the top of each column should be removed as well, as it would nicely use the table to showcase the "gap" in development between J-1 and J-2 at TL9 and TL11, respectively. Essentially, J-1 would become TL10 Standard J-1, and Early Jump (0.9) at TL9.

Otherwise, based on the text in the tables, I think your reading of Hop-0, Skip-0, etc is correct. Although by canon they would not have a Hop/Skip Governor, and would traverse their full (lesser) distance.

 

[spank]

I added a J-1.5 Or H 1.5 column to smooth things out, I think it gives a smoother transition. You've learned a little bit from all that J-1 travel, enough for some improvement, You can use a drive large enough to get J-2, but you haven't figured out everything you need to do to get J-2.
Also it seems that in alot of case the Experimental J-1 Drive is only ever good at TL-3 which seems correct. Then you switch to a Prototype J-1, Then at the next TL you have either the Prototype J-1.5 drive or the Early J-1 Drive. And they are distinct enough that you could use either.
For example a TL 16 Prototype H-1.5 drive will go 11.25 parsecs on 22.5% fuel or and Early H-1 will go 8.75 on 11% fuel. 25% Farther but you use twice the fuel and need a bigger power plant.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I've been thinking about Hop Drive again lately, and tinkering with some ship designs. Basic Hop drive isn't that different than Jump, just faster. But the intermediate steps are interesting to me.
I've been pushing around some numbers for Hop Drive Tech Level, Size, Fuel consumption Etc. T5 is not the most straight forward sometimes. Hop drive is one of those cases.
Hop is a TL-17 technology, and Experimental versions should be in the works 3 TLs sooner. But the book says
"A society at TL 16 cannot produce standard Hop Drives. It can produce a Hop-A for installation in a Hull-B as an Experimental Hop-2 (at 50% efficiency, round down to Hop-1) with various tonnage (x3), cost (x10), and fuel (x2) handicaps, and it would require a Jump Field based on Jump Plates. Nevertheless, the result is an improvement over most other options"
I thinks there are a few things going on here. First they are trying to protect the setting, If you follow the experimental at -3 TL rule you'd get Experimental Hop at TL14, Prototype Hop at TL15 and Early Hop at TL16. Which would be somewhat disruptive to the Imperium. The other is that they seem to be saying you either go atleast Hop-1 or not at all. No TL14 experimental Hops of 5 parsecs. No TL15 Prototype Hops of 8 Parsecs and No TL16 Hops of 9 Parsecs. To be honest I find this boring, the game is set on a 1 parsec map, so I think it's perfectly fine to allow 5 parsecs at Hop-0.5. It's experimental like Cugnot's Steam Wagon from 1769, a sign of things to come, but not something that's going to be commercial available or viable.
With that in mind I worked up a chart for the various variants of Hop drive. I also made a few alterations, such as adding "Hop 1.5" at TL 18 and adjusting some of the modifiers so they make a better progression.
View attachment 5917
This is what it looks like when applied to the drives. You can select a standard sized drive from the drive performance table, modify the cost and size. Then get the performance in Parsec from and Fuel consumption from this table.
View attachment 5918

You are overcomplicating things...

The Drive Potential Table is just a precalculated shortcut from the Drive Potential formula, e.g. p63:
, where EP is effective EP modified by stage, EP×Eff.

So, if you want a Hop-1 drive for a 300 Dt hull at stage Prototype, you need a drive with base EP = P×Hull/2/Eff
EP = 1×300/2/0.75 = 200 EP, so a drive B would do.

This way you can construct any drive potential at any TL (down to standard TL-3) by using an oversized drive.


In the 3I setting the Imperium just hasn't made the technological leap to make Hop at all, even on TL-16 worlds (unless secret).
See "How Jump Works", p112:

Jump Is A Technological Paradigm Shift

Discovery of jumpspace and jumpdrive technology requires simultaneous non-traditional breakthroughs in a variety of fields: ...

 

[Spinward Flow]

The Drive Potential Table is just a precalculated shortcut from the Drive Potential formula

* polite cough *

Just like LBB2.81 should be (also) ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Just like LBB2.81 should be (also) ...

But isn't.

 

[aramis]

* polite cough *

Just like LBB2.81 should be (also) ...

But was intentionally not so. And there are US Copyright reasons not to.
So, no, it should NOT be.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This way you can construct any drive potential at any TL (down to standard TL-3) by using an oversized drive.

For example, Hop-1 in a 1000 Dt hull needs a 500 EP drive:

TL	Drive	Dton	MCr	Fuel, Dton
TL14	Exp Hop Drive-K, 500 EP	180	3600	200
TL15	Pro Hop Drive-G, 560 EP	_90	_900	120
TL16	Ear Hop Drive-F, 540 EP	_40	_160	110
TL17	Std Hop Drive-E, 500 EP	_35	__70	100
TL18	Imp Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_35	__70	_90
TL19	Mod Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_17.5	__35	_90
TL20	Adv Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_15	__60	_80
TL21	Ult Hop Drive-D, 520 EP	_15	__90	_70

 

[spank]

Except you're not going to get Hop-1 at TL14.
You're limited by the TL effect, so the best you're going to get is Hop-0.5

For example, Hop-1 in a 1000 Dt hull needs a 500 EP drive:

TL	Drive	Dton	MCr	Fuel, Dton
TL14	Exp Hop Drive-K, 500 EP	180	3600	200
TL15	Pro Hop Drive-G, 560 EP	_90	_900	120
TL16	Ear Hop Drive-F, 540 EP	_40	_160	110
TL17	Std Hop Drive-E, 500 EP	_35	__70	100
TL18	Imp Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_35	__70	_90
TL19	Mod Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_17.5	__35	_90
TL20	Adv Hop Drive-E, 550 EP	_15	__60	_80
TL21	Ult Hop Drive-D, 520 EP	_15	__90	_70

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Except you're not going to get Hop-1 at TL14.
You're limited by the TL effect, so the best you're going to get is Hop-0.5

If you are using the table, yes.

But not if you are using the drive potential calculation.

B2, p57:
DRIVE EFFICIENCY
_ _ The various drives and power systems are presented, for convenience, as the Standard systems. Technology variations may alter their efficiency and fuel requirements.
_ _ The Drive Potential Tables provide easy access to the interaction between standard drives and standard hulls.
_ _ Calculated Potential. If non-standard drives (those altered by TL Stage Effects) are used, potential can be calculated.

B2, p76:



B2, p63:



The drive potential table is just a shortcut that works best for standard drives.
The drive potential formula gives the full range of results.
You are free to use either, as you see fit.


The TL limitation and stage is based on the potential you wish to achieve, not the specific drive used.


An Exp Hop Drive-K has EP = 1000 × efficiency 50% = 500 EP.
In a 1000 Dt hull it gives P = (500 / 1000) × 2 = 1.
Based on TL it can never have more than potential 1, regardless of hull used.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You're limited by the TL effect, so the best you're going to get is Hop-0.5View attachment 5933

This table only describes what happens for the minimum drive that gives the desired potential at stage Standard, e.g. a drive-E in a 1000 Dt hull for potential 1, not all drives.


According to the Drive Potential Table comparing Hop drives at Std TL vs TL-14:

What is the potential of a Std drive-E in a 1000 Dt hull? 1.
What is the potential of an Exp drive-E in a 1000 Dt hull? 1×50% = 0.5, rounded to 0.

What is the potential of a Std drive-K in a 1000 Dt hull? 2.
What is the potential of an Exp drive-K in a 1000 Dt hull? 2×50% = 1.
Limited by TL-14 and stage Exp to 1, so final 1.

What is the potential of a Std drive-V in a 1000 Dt hull? 4.
What is the potential of an Exp drive-K in a 1000 Dt hull? 4×50% = 2.
Limited by TL-14 and stage Exp to 1, so final 1.

and:

What is the potential of a Std drive-V in a 1000 Dt hull? 4.
Limited by TL-17 and stage Std to 1, so final 1.


Does that make any kind of sense?

 

[Condottiere]

From what I assume is the author's intent, I had the impression that Hop drives didn't really have discretion as to exactly how far they go, except it would be in stages of exactly ten parsecs.

Customizing the drive, would be more in terms of size and/or energy requirements.

That's why, I don't think you can have microhops, and, if you did, going by Interstellar Wars concept, it would be within two and a half parsecs.

 

[spank]

From what I assume is the author's intent, I had the impression that Hop drives didn't really have discretion as to exactly how far they go, except it would be in stages of exactly ten parsecs.

Customizing the drive, would be more in terms of size and/or energy requirements.

That's why, I don't think you can have microhops, and, if you did, going by Interstellar Wars concept, it would be within two and a half parsecs.

That's pretty much how it reads,
Drives go a distance equal to their potential plus or minus 10%
Unless it has a jump {hop} governor, and standard +TL designs should.
" A Jump Governor is integral to a Standard or higher tech
level Jump Drive; an Experimental, Prototype, or Early Jump
Drive does not have a Jump Governor.
The same applies to Higher Order Drives: a Hop-3 drive
without a Governor can do more than Hop-2 and up to Hop-3
(approximately 21 to 30 parsecs); a Hop-3 drive with a Governor
can Hop 10, 20, or 30 parsecs."
"Without A Governor: A Drive produces its potential
within about 10%."

 

[spank]

It doesn't matter if you use the table or the formula, you are still limited by the TL effects. An Experimental TL-14 Drive can't make more than 0.5 of what a TL-17 standard drive would make. No matter how many EP the drive makes, no matter how big the drive is.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It doesn't matter if you use the table or the formula, you are still limited by the TL effects.

Agreed.

An Experimental TL-14 Drive can't make more than 0.5 of what a TL-17 standard drive would make. No matter how many EP the drive makes, no matter how big the drive is.

No, not quite.

Hop-1 is a TL-17 technology, right?
Stage Experimental is three TLs earlier, right?
So, Exp Hop-1 is a TL-14 technology.
At TL-14 we can't get above Hop-1, regardless of how powerful drive we use.


The table only covers this case:
A Std drive-E in a 1000 Dt hull is potential 1.
An Exp Hop drive-E is potential 1×50% = 0.5, rounded to 0.

The table only covers a few pre-calculated cases, not every combination of drive, stage, and hull:

B2, p57:
DRIVE EFFICIENCY
_ _ The various drives and power systems are presented, for convenience, as the Standard systems. Technology variations may alter their efficiency and fuel requirements.
_ _ The Drive Potential Tables provide easy access to the interaction between standard drives and standard hulls.
_ _ Calculated Potential. If non-standard drives (those altered by TL Stage Effects) are used, potential can be calculated.

Use a bigger drive, get a higher potential, limited to 1 by TL and stage.