Explain Sandcasters to me?

[Rigel Stardin]

I've heard several versions but none of have defined what they are?

1. Anti-personel / anti-ship weapons.
2. Anti-Missile Defense system.
3. A way to mask your ship from enemy fire (Laser/Particle weapons) or enemy sensor equipment in a war game setting.

I know that it is some sort of canister shot that launches and spreads pellets of a certain size and that's it. Range is short but even that is unclear.

Where did I get this information, why these forms of course... So would someone please clarify there useage.

 

[kilemall]

Plays differently per version, but it’s consistently a canister of reflective particles that break up laser energy enough to potentially block successful damage.

In CT LBB2 had it as a directional cloud, like laying smoke. The effective countermeasure was to have ships at different directions so the defending ship couldn’t stay covered especially under acceleration.

Sand picked up antimissile functions in the missile supplement and High Guard.

I don’t know every iteration of sand, but first I read the sand as shotgun rule was MgT.

Brilliant Lances has that sand cloud rule.

Really, a much more effective tool would be something like a space version of chaffroc, to throw off the targeting/to-hit of all weapons. Of course that should be pretty expensive per canister.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I prefer ECM (Electronic Countermeasures) Decoys and EW (Eletronic Weapons) Suites as countermeasures. Decoys are used to as you stated, throw off the incoming missiles. EW Suites allow a ship to go undetected long or breack a target lock in one on one battles.

Iron Crown had rules for mutliple missiles fires and hits. I had each player or me vs player role on the same engagement table. If I roled higher than his role, the Decoy blocked all incoming missiles. If I rolled low, then whatever the difference between the rolls were the number of missiles that hit you.

 

[Condottiere]

It has unrealized potential.

 

[mike wightman]

For CT to understand sandcasters you need to study:
LBB2
Mayday
Missiles Special Supplement
Striker

 

[Rigel Stardin]

None of which I have. LBB2 is in storage the rest I never bought.

 

[McPerth]

I don’t know every iteration of sand, but first I read the sand as shotgun rule was MgT.

Already in MT it was usable as anti-personnel weapon too (and quite effective as such at short ranges), being used also as anti-boarding actions

 

[Dragoner]

I think of Sandcasters as similar to chaff/decoys that modern fighters carry. Certainly though, lasers can cut a mirror in real life, it's mostly in movies like James Bond where they reflect.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Sandcasters are just "debris chuckers" in CT, used to "soak" incoming damage from lasers and plasma/fusion guns as well as muck up missiles (particle accelerators and meson guns ignore sandcasters in LBB5.80 combat).

The thing that never gets mentioned though is ... in an orbital context, that debris doesn't simply despawn after the battle is over. Instead, it remains a hazard capable of producing Kessler Syndrome if carelessly thrown around without adequate means to clean it up (I'm thinking Repulsors would be required to deorbit the "sand" and clear the spacelanes after battles). Taken to its logical conclusion, that would then mean that 1000 ton (non-)starships featuring a Repuslor bay weapon would become necessary equipment for deorbiting space junk and debris to clear orbits (lunar, planetary and stellar) in order to remove navigation hazards and "clean up space" around important locations (and after battles).

Note that in LBB5.80, 100 ton Repulsor bay weapons become available at TL=10+ and are relatively cheap (100 tons, MCr1+10, EP=10, requires 2 gunners) and leave a LOT of remaining tonnage for other uses (like cargo capacity). I can easily envision building a class of ships that are in effect "space trash collectors" built to clear space lanes using Repulsors (TL=10+) and Nuclear Dampeners (TL=12+) for the "little stuff" (10 cm or less in size) which is also a junk salvage operator that retrieves larger objects/debris to stow in a cargo hold for proper disposal somewhere. Put in a jump drive and you can have a "wandering trash collector" starship that contracts space cleanup services and would require a minimum TL=10 and 1000 tons to be useful/effective at the job capable of wandering around like a tramp prospector from star system to star system.

Could lead to all kinds of fun adventure hooks ...

 

[mike wightman]

Mayday:

SS3 Missiles

Sand Effects: Any missile which passes through sand may be incapacitated by
that sand. For each 25 millimeters of sand that a missile passes through, throw
12 + for the missile to be incapacitated by it. If incapacitated, the missile ceases
to function.

Striker

6. Sandcasters: Sandcasters may be used as a sort of giant shotgun. They
attack all targets within their danger space, which is 4 cm wide at effective range,
8 cm at long range, and 12 cm at extreme range. Effective range in a standard
atmosphere is 50 cm with a penetration of 20 and an autofire DM of +8. Long
range is 100 cm with a penetration of 10 and an autofire DM of +6. Extreme
range is 200 cm with a penetration of 5 and an autofire DM of +4.

 

[Condottiere]

1. It's a canister.

2. You can put anything into a canister.

3. Including, tactical nukes.

4. Or cluster munitions.

5. Add fins and a precision guidance kit, it becomes a smart gliding ortillery.

6. A little shuffling with volumes, you could make it the equivalent of a sabot enclosed mini missile, that ignites after launch.

7. Presumably, the launcher is a low powered mass driver.

8. You could turn it into a large calibre mortar.

 

[kilemall]

1. It's a canister.

2. You can put anything into a canister.

3. Including, tactical nukes.

4. Or cluster munitions.

5. Add fins and a precision guidance kit, it becomes a smart gliding ortillery.

6. A little shuffling with volumes, you could make it the equivalent of a sabot enclosed mini missile, that ignites after launch.

7. Presumably, the launcher is a low powered mass driver.

8. You could turn it into a large calibre mortar.

My big surprise IMTU is a sandcaster that houses a Casaba Howitzer.

I posted a thread on alternate sand loads.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

So, I wasn't that far of in my mental image of what a Sandcaster can do.

See my military mind looks at the Sandcaster in the following ways:

1. A Bee Hive Round, except it fires round pellets of ablative armor.

2. Also Images of Reagan's Star War promotional videos pop into my mind. Canister fire from a weapon system and exploding near the incoming missile shredding it to pieces

3. Then Dragoner used the term, 'Sandcaster Barrels' and I thought Metal Storm,

except with larger projectiles. These would be canister shot, again filled with large pellets.

4. And finally, add some kind of radar/scanner absorbent material to the ablative armor pellets and you get a masking cloud the screws with your sensing systems?

So, I wasn't that far of in my mental image of what a Sandcaster can do.

What screws with my mind is that Traveller description implies the canister contain particles the size of a grain of sand. I see how they would be effective against some energy weapons and as a masking cloud. Missiles not so sure of?

Yes, I know what small objects like a grains of sand can do at 1 G. The problem there is the missile would be design with the same hull material as star ships and be capable of handling such strikes. It's all about cloud density. If the Sandcaster is fire to early then, the density is going to be wide spread and not have any effect on the incoming missile. I know, the same can happen with the 'pellet' concept I have in my mind. So, it has to be a close in anti-missile system fired at the last moment.

It's all about how explosives and deployment systems add velocity to the Sand and how it effect the density of the Sand?

 

[whartung]

@Condottiere I've never seen a Sand Caster referred to as some generic "stuff" projector.

As others have stated, the Sand is shot out in to a cloud around the ship. I've see it referred to as prismatic sand (which is why this is sand at all) with the idea that as the laser hits the particles, the laser breaks up and gets scattered about, lessening it's overall impact on the ship.

Originally, the cloud was launched like anything else and simply followed the ship because it had the same vector as the ship (thus it being dispersed when the ship changes course). In TNE they wrapped it in a magnetic/gravitic bubble to let it "stick" with the ship, but then it took on an ablative quality so that it could only absorb a single hit, and then needed to be replenished. But, you only needed to refresh the sand after it took a hit, vs after every maneuver.

It's definitely a "real world-ish" thing heavily influenced by a game mechanic. For example, in TNE you need a sandcaster launcher to counter a laser hit. You can't stack sand protection over time. So, you can't have a single sand caster, and pump out sand each turn for 5 turns, and then have it absorb 5 laser shots all at once. You can't treat it as a shield you can build up over time, and then replenish over time. It's one caster counters one weapon. If you had 6 casters, that's 6 weapons.

This is sorta described because they say that the caster is shot in response to a laser hit, even though it has to be deploy before the laser hit.

It's a bit of a mess when looked at in detail, but treated solely as a game mechanic, it works OK.

 

[kilemall]

So, I wasn't that far of in my mental image of what a Sandcaster can do.

See my military mind looks at the Sandcaster in the following ways:

1. A Bee Hive Round, except it fires round pellets of ablative armor.

2. Also Images of Reagan's Star War promotional videos pop into my mind. Canister fire from a weapon system and exploding near the incoming missile shredding it to pieces

3. Then Dragoner used the term, 'Sandcaster Barrels' and I thought Metal Storm,

except with larger projectiles. These would be canister shot, again filled with large pellets.

4. And finally, add some kind of radar/scanner absorbent material to the ablative armor pellets and you get a masking cloud the screws with your sensing systems?

So, I wasn't that far of in my mental image of what a Sandcaster can do.

What screws with my mind is that Traveller description implies the canister contain particles the size of a grain of sand. I see how they would be effective against some energy weapons and as a masking cloud. Missiles not so sure of?

Yes, I know what small objects like a grains of sand can do at 1 G. The problem there is the missile would be design with the same hull material as star ships and be capable of handling such strikes. It's all about cloud density. If the Sandcaster is fire to early then, the density is going to be wide spread and not have any effect on the incoming missile. I know, the same can happen with the 'pellet' concept I have in my mind. So, it has to be a close in anti-missile system fired at the last moment.

It's all about how explosives and deployment systems add velocity to the Sand and how it effect the density of the Sand?

Here is the link to my sand thread, complete with code ids for types-

The Lowly Sandcaster- Unleashed!

If there is any iconic bit of hardware that says Traveller, a prime argument can be made that it is the sandcaster. Rather then SHATTERING BEAMS smashing into ENERGY SCREENS OF UNIMAGINABLE POWER, our lasers get diffracted and ablated by a pack of specialized sand. I'd say that sets the tone...

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[Rigel Stardin]

@whartung I like that description about the magnetic field and it being a poor man's verision of a force field. Only problem, I see there is over time, the build up of sand is going to blind your ship's sensing equipment at some point.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

@kilemall I saw where delivery systems came up in your thread. I've always thought of it as a mortar tube, single use only. Then I saw on a deckplan where it was depicted as a short barrel autocannon or artillery with an auto-loader. Then Dragoner 'barrels' brought up the Metal Storm concept. And I like all three ideas.

Like your concept about 'warhead' types for Sand too.

As far as Guidance systems, there would only be two: Smart and LOS (Line of sight). Smart Canisters could track in coming missiles, while LOS Canisters could only be fired in the direction of the incoming missiles and have a less chance to hit.

@whartung description and use of a Magnetic field explains away why only Sand can mask only one ship at a time. However, my military brain thought, WW2, Destroyers and Smoke Screens. I know the rules say this can't be done but, why not? A ship equipped with a Sand projector (smoke generator in layman's terms) Lay down a field of sand with radar/scanner absorbent material in front of another ship? Just saying?

 

[Condottiere]

Like I said, unrealized potential.

To be fair, I'm not quite sure how you can maintain a cohesive magnetized cloud travelling alongside a constant accelerating spacecraft.

 

[kilemall]

@kilemall I saw where delivery systems came up in your thread. I've always thought of it as a mortar tube, single use only. Then I saw on a deckplan where it was depicted as a short barrel autocannon or artillery with an auto-loader. Then Dragoner 'barrels' brought up the Metal Storm concept. And I like all three ideas.

Like your concept about 'warhead' types for Sand too.

As far as Guidance systems, there would only be two: Smart and LOS (Line of sight). Smart Canisters could track in coming missiles, while LOS Canisters could only be fired in the direction of the incoming missiles and have a less chance to hit.

@whartung description and use of a Magnetic field explains away why only Sand can mask only one ship at a time. However, my military brain thought, WW2, Destroyers and Smoke Screens. I know the rules say this can't be done but, why not? A ship equipped with a Sand projector (smoke generator in layman's terms) Lay down a field of sand with radar/scanner absorbent material in front of another ship? Just saying?

The original rules had the sandcaster cloud lay out in whatever direction it was fired, any ships behind the cloud could be protected. Thing is, that involves knowing what the relative position is of all ships involved, and that means either miniatures or Mayday/BL moving. The range band folks are going to have to wing it.

The darn rules don’t go over width or dispersion rate like a naval or army minis wargame would, that’s an issue.

I see sandcasters as space hedgehogs, very short range countermeasures. The mines would be the only type with any kind of smarts, all other types would have a little bit of maneuver jet and under control of the ship’s computer which has more sensors and smarts to direct the actions of the canisters.

Reloading canisters like missiles was in the original books. Something like a fixed tube would make sense for small craft without dedicated gunners or reload space.

 

[whartung]

However, my military brain thought, WW2, Destroyers and Smoke Screens. I know the rules say this can't be done but, why not? A ship equipped with a Sand projector (smoke generator in layman's terms) Lay down a field of sand with radar/scanner absorbent material in front of another ship? Just saying?

Well, simply because of the scales involved. The ships simply aren't close enough together, even if they're stacked in the same 30,000km hex.

To quote Mr. Adams:

“Space [...] is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.”

Even today, a modern carrier battle group, the ships aren't even necessarily cruising within LOS of each other. They're mostly controlling HUGE airspaces, plus they don't want the escorts to identify where the carrier is.

Everyone is a blip on a screen that zooms to fit.

Only problem, I see there is over time, the build up of sand is going to blind your ship's sensing equipment at some point.

Sure, if you keep piling it on. In Mayday, there's a penalty for shooting out through the sand.

But, by the same notion, for a ship that's not shooting back (i.e. say a Free Trader racing for jump), "who cares, throw more sand! If we can't see them, they can't see us!".