Exploration history - expanding boundaries

[Frankymole]

I'm trying to work out the earliest dates the various Major Races' explorers (or potential colonizers) could have been capable of visiting a far-away sector I am devising (near the edge of Charted Space - or beyond it).

Is there somewhere a list of which races achieved jump-1, jump-2, etc up to J-6 capability? This would help me establish the maximum age of any colonies (long-lost or otherwise), or even just scout ship/survey team/scientific expedition remnants, especially for the more sparse regions...

Not worried about large, planned expeditions or the chances of them surviving - lone exploration vessels would do just as well. I'm ignoring misjumps, though of course as ships move beyond the range of annual maintenance such things get more likely...

Thanks in advance for anyone who knows the history of J-drive, or a link to same!

 

[rancke]

Jump Drive History.

The Droyne are not mentioned in the article, but they have been able to build jump drives for an unknown, but large, number of years. Maybe 70,000, maybe 300,000. They mostly haven't had any reason to do so, though.

An unsupervised Ancient operation could have been "harvesting" people from a world ever since the Final War, a few at a time. The knowledge that space travel is possible might have encouraged the deportees to advance technologically even faster than the Vilani.

Hans

 

[steventirey1985]

According to the Mongoose Traveller alien modules, these are the dates the various races first discovered Jump-1 (all dates are from the Imperial calander):

Aslan -1999
Vargr -3810
Zhodani: -5415
Solomani -2439 (2087 AD) [the timeline later on in the book says -2431]

The Alsan book says that within 3 centuries, they discovered Jump-2, so somewhere about -1699. They had Jump-5 by -1044, when they crossed the Great Rift with their new Jump-5 scouts.

In the Zhodani book, it is noted that the Zhodani encountered the Vargr in -2800, and accidentaly gave them more advanced jump technology. But no notes on how advanced.

The Solomani book says they achieved Jump-2 by -2398 and Jump-3 by -2285. By 1050, Solomani average TL was 14 (Jump-5).

Also according to the timeline in the Solomani book, the Third Imperium reached TL 13 (Jump-4) in 300 and TL 15 (Jump 6) in 1000

 

[Frankymole]

Very useful information, thank you both very much indeed!

Erin Palette on Facebook had this (presumably for Ziru Sirka/Imperium):

"All data has been taken from the Traveller Integrated Timeline.

"-9235 TL 9, Jump-1
-5430 TL 11, Jump-2
-2204 TL 12, Jump-3
(gained when the Solomani conquered the First Imperium)
300 TL 13, Jump-4
700 TL 14, Jump-5
1000 TL 15, Jump-6"

 

[CosmicGamer]

Part A

I'm trying to work out the earliest dates the various Major Races' explorers (or potential colonizers) could have been capable of visiting a far-away sector I am devising (near the edge of Charted Space - or beyond it).

Part B

Is there somewhere a list of which races achieved jump-1, jump-2, etc up to J-6 capability?

Does part B have to go with part A? There were far reaching areas colonized by slow boats. Would need to know how far you are talking about to each race for determining if the slow boats would get there before technology advanced and Jump ships beat them to it.

 

[whulorigan]

According to the Mongoose Traveller alien modules . . .

The Alsan book says that within 3 centuries, they discovered Jump-2, so somewhere about -1699. They had Jump-5 by -1044, when they crossed the Great Rift with their new Jump-5 scouts.

Does the book actually say that the Aslan had Jump-5 by -1044, or are you inferring it from the crossing of the J5 route? Remember, it is possible to get accross the J5 route with a lower Jump number by making multiple jumps across 5pc rifts, presuming you have a ship with fuel tankage that can support more than a single jump.

I ask because -1044 seems awfully early for the Aslan to have reached TL-14, which also would imply that the Imperium was fighting the Aslan prior to the Peace of Ftahalr in 380 with TL12/13 ships against mature Aslan TL-14 vessels (and other technology).

 

[steventirey1985]

Does the book actually say that the Aslan had Jump-5 by -1044, or are you inferring it from the crossing of the J5 route? Remember, it is possible to get accross the J5 route with a lower Jump number by making multiple jumps across 5pc rifts, presuming you have a ship with fuel tankage that can support more than a single jump.

I ask because -1044 seems awfully early for the Aslan to have reached TL-14, which also would imply that the Imperium was fighting the Aslan prior to the Peace of Ftahalr in 380 with TL12/13 ships against mature Aslan TL-14 vessels (and other technology).

The book says they used their new Jump-5 scouts to plot the course to the far side.

The Great Rift limited Aslan expansion to coreward for thousands of years until explorers from the Wahtoi clan equipped with the new long-range Jump-5 scouts managed to plot a course to the far side. The scouts and traders from the Wahtoi mapped several subsectors of Iiyoihuakh (Riftspan) and Hlaoiroahaurl (Trojan Reach) and established a few small colonies but it took many more centuries before the Aslan began a serious push into this new territory.

The timeline on the same page puts the first crossing at -1044, so the Aslan would of had to have those jump-5 drives then.

 

[rancke]

The book says they used their new Jump-5 scouts to plot the course to the far side.

The timeline on the same page puts the first crossing at -1044, so the Aslan would of had to have those jump-5 drives then.

:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

Unnecessary and setting-straining.

Hey, perhaps those scouts were experimental prototypes manned by suicidal glory-seekers?


Hans

 

[rancke]

The Aslan book says that within 3 centuries, they discovered Jump-2, so somewhere about -1699.

ISTR that the scoutship they copied the jump drive from was J3 (that would certainly be the logical performance for a TL12 scoutship). If so, they should have achieved J3 quite soon after achieving J1. Or perhaps they should have achieved J3 before they achieved J1 and J2.

Perhaps those dates are part of the Aslan coverup?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

ISTR that the scoutship they copied the jump drive from was J3 (that would certainly be the logical performance for a TL12 scoutship). If so, they should have achieved J3 quite soon after achieving J1. Or perhaps they should have achieved J3 before they achieved J1 and J2.

Perhaps those dates are part of the Aslan coverup?

That is certainly as good an explanation as any. Part of the cover-up could also be that the "prototype" vessels that they were using to cross the rift were specially designed lower-jump vessels (J2/3?) optimized to carry multi-jump fuel loads (i.e. they were virtually all fuel-tank with a tiny crew/payload section) and designed specifically for the J5 crossing (i.e. they were "J5" in the sense that they had a 5pc jump-range before needing to refuel).

 

[Frankymole]

A bit more from the FB discussion:

Donald McKinney wrote this:

"There have been several proposals for backtracking the TL timeline between -2204 and 300, but none have been canonized. I'd be willing to lend some weight (well, can't do that too well, I just lost 150 pounds) to any such proposals

"However, the jump-4 introduction has been proposed to start with the Luriani Protectorate joining the Imperium in 202, and has spread across the whole Imperium by the point that full trade is occurring between the Imperium and the Easter Concord in the Solomani Rim around 300.

"Non-canon, but theorized, is that the reason the Imperium permitted the creation of the Solomani Autonomous Region in 704 is the Imperial Navy's introduction of TL14/jump-5 ships, and these are neither stationed or built in Solomani space. And yes, the naval rebuild post-3FW is accompanied with the introduction of TL15/jump-6 ships."

 

[Frankymole]

Does part B have to go with part A? There were far reaching areas colonized by slow boats. Would need to know how far you are talking about to each race for determining if the slow boats would get there before technology advanced and Jump ships beat them to it.

Part A doesn't have to go with Part B.

I'm looking to do a MTU that is really OTU but so far out that I'm not constrained by the bulk of background material; it would have "branched off" after the earliest colonies were settled - hence setting it at one of the furthest boundaries of regular colonization/exploration; but I do want to use several races and perhaps some ships visiting from the mainstream major race 'empires', plus an older established presence of humans (from Vilani or Solomani ancestry) - so an "Islands Subectors" (Trillion Credit Squadron) type sub-light colonisation is okay. But I'd like to know when the FTL ships are likely to have first visited, too. And to still not have too much interaction with the 3rd Imperium and the rest of the major empires (this is circa 1105).

Knowing the dates would give a likely date range (and hence the age of colonies and scope for working up some history of race interactions in the sector), at least for the systems furthest from mains or J-2 connections...

 

[Frankymole]

That is certainly as good an explanation as any. Part of the cover-up could also be that the "prototype" vessels that they were using to cross the rift were specially designed lower-jump vessels (J2/3?) optimized to carry multi-jump fuel loads (i.e. they were virtually all fuel-tank with a tiny crew/payload section) and designed specifically for the J5 crossing (i.e. they were "J5" in the sense that they had a 5pc jump-range before needing to refuel).

Looks like there's a whole thread about it now: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33934


Personally, I'm looking to develop a subsector at a point where Solomani and Hiver influence is roughly equal (though both low key / rare) and Aslan a bit rarer. So it's got to be a fair way to Rimward and with contact really getting going only about 500 years ago (though colonies can predate that but would've been far out enough to have almost become lost colonies, at least with very intermittent interaction). How far to Rimward would that subsector need to be, from the rimward edge of the Solomani Sphere?

Is it a false assumption to assume that if there were exploitable resources (and decent stellar systems, albeit no particular "high-population back home" pressure to settle them) then traffic would build up fairly soon after early explorations, or does Charted Space history indicate that even long-discovered systems would be left fairly undeveloped (bar a few pioneers) for a long time - with little trading activity from the older, established subsectors for a (centuries- or millennia-long) time?

 

[whulorigan]

Personally, I'm looking to develop a subsector at a point where Solomani and Hiver influence is roughly equal (though both low key / rare) and Aslan a bit rarer. So it's got to be a fair way to Rimward and with contact really getting going only about 500 years ago (though colonies can predate that but would've been far out enough to have almost become lost colonies, at least with very intermittent interaction). How far to Rimward would that subsector need to be, from the rimward edge of the Solomani Sphere?

I personally have always liked the idea of a pocket region of "Rigel Colonies" or "Orion Colonies" (yes, it is a "Star Trek-ism", but I like the sound of the names ), which astrographically would lie approximately 4-7 sectors rimward by rimtrailing of the last named sectors on TravellerMap. (It happens to be true that all of the major stars in Orion are "reasonably" close to one another [in galactic terms, at any rate]). It is also a region that one might argue was originally surveyed for scientific/astrophysical purposes (especially Rigel and Betelgeuse), which just happened to turn up exploitable resources among the dimmer F-M Class stars of the region. It is also probably sufficiently far away that significant trade with Charted Space is not going to happen unless there is a major commodity or abundance of resources in the region. (But as long as there are profitable resources, they could support the existence of a colony-region).

Is it a false assumption to assume that if there were exploitable resources (and decent stellar systems, albeit no particular "high-population back home" pressure to settle them) then traffic would build up fairly soon after early explorations, or does Charted Space history indicate that even long-discovered systems would be left fairly undeveloped (bar a few pioneers) for a long time - with little trading activity from the older, established subsectors for a (centuries- or millennia-long) time?

As I noted above, I think it would depend upon the type and abundance of the resources found, as compared to the distance of profitably shipping them back to Charted Space. If it can be done more cheaply closer to home, there is no impetus to engage in resource speculation that far out. But if there are enough resources to support colonies locally, then they might draw the pioneer "live-free-or-die" type colonists, as well as those with an eye toward establishing profitable mercantile trade with them, building up trading corporations that do not have to constantly compete with the Big Corporations back in more settled regions.

Also, people of Solomani background are more likely to be of the pioneering or "entrepreneurial" type of personality than those influenced by more staid and conservative Vilani cultural influences

 

[Frankymole]

I personally have always liked the idea of a pocket region of "Rigel Colonies" or "Orion Colonies" (yes, it is a "Star Trek-ism", but I like the sound of the names ), which astrographically would lie approximately 4-7 sectors rimward by rimtrailing of the last named sectors on TravellerMap. (It happens to be true that all of the major stars in Orion are "reasonably" close to one another [in galactic terms, at any rate]).

4-7 sectors at a rimward-by-rimward/trailing (galactic longitude 210 deg) from the named sectors' edge would be about 7-10 sectors from Terra; about 320 to 460 parsecs allows a good few open clusters; NGC 2232 in Monoceros might be a nice candidate (about 20 stars, galactic longitude 214 degrees so definitely rimward-by-rimward/trailing, and roughly 50 parsecs below the galactic plane). Oh hang on, it says here that it is only 25 million years old... still, the metals might be exploitable. Think I might steer clear of those new young clusters then! Might make a nice navigational hazard though, to an older region beyond.

Also, people of Solomani background are more likely to be of the pioneering or "entrepreneurial" type of personality than those influenced by more staid and conservative Vilani cultural influences

Thanks! I need to think about Hiver curiosity appeal now... it would be about 7 sectors rimward of Lancask...

Then there's this... http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Rim_Expedition_Map which may put a spanner in the works!

 

[Frankymole]

Not to mention this... http://zho.berka.com/2013/06/27/dushis-khurisi-and-other-interesting-expansions-of-the-otu/

 

[salochin999]

I'm trying to work out the earliest dates the various Major Races' explorers (or potential colonizers) could have been capable of visiting a far-away sector I am devising (near the edge of Charted Space - or beyond it).

Is there somewhere a list of which races achieved jump-1, jump-2, etc up to J-6 capability? This would help me establish the maximum age of any colonies (long-lost or otherwise), or even just scout ship/survey team/scientific expedition remnants, especially for the more sparse regions...

Not worried about large, planned expeditions or the chances of them surviving - lone exploration vessels would do just as well. I'm ignoring misjumps, though of course as ships move beyond the range of annual maintenance such things get more likely...

Thanks in advance for anyone who knows the history of J-drive, or a link to same!

This might not be what you want but an idea I got from another thread is the OTU is 2D but the universe itself isn't so saying jump only works along a plane so there are other layers above and below the OTU plane like a 3D chess set but you can't reach them.

http://files.chess.com/images_users/tiny_mce/phishcake5/86617_3d_set.jpg

Except you can at certain points.

There are intersecting planes which, if there's a system at both ends of an the intersection (as IMTU jump drives need gravity to work) - and sometimes only if the planets are right - a ship can jump up or down.

IMTU the Darrians know about this and Darrian is one such system and their real civ is 12 parsecs up. They have little empires at each entry point from other planes like the OTU to block the entrances.

If you know how to do it you can travel these routes any time but otherwise it is involuntary like a Bermuda triangle - if you try and jump in a system like that when the planets are right you go up or down to the connected plane. The connected plane can be any size as you can have rifts surrounding it.

So anyway IMTU from now on whenever i feel like an unexplored sector/sub-sector but don't want to change everything i can simply have a scientific expedition to a system rumored to be a Bermuda triangle system, make the stars be right and off they go: five year mission to explore strange new worlds etc - but 4 parsecs above the Spinward Marches or 23 below or whatever.

I thought that was a neat way of killing two birds with one stone: the 2D OTU and wanting unexplored space from time to time but still - kind of - within the OTU setting so as not to have to invent an entire galactic history back story.

 

[Frankymole]

Very neat, I like it (especially as a Darrians fan)

The "falling through a black hole / worm hole to another dimension" idea of numerous films and books done with a lot more elegance and not requiring other universes - aside from Jump Space of course, and that's already OTU canon.

Not that I stick rigidly to canon anyway, but it's nice to have a common point of reference.

 

[salochin999]

Very neat, I like it (especially as a Darrians fan)

The "falling through a black hole / worm hole to another dimension" idea of numerous films and books done with a lot more elegance and not requiring other universes - aside from Jump Space of course, and that's already OTU canon.

Not that I stick rigidly to canon anyway, but it's nice to have a common point of reference.

Same, I like canon as a starting point - mostly out of laziness - and then work away from it to where I want to be and I think the Darrians could use a cool secret of some kind.

 

[Frankymole]

Just having a little play around with merging some "actual" galaxy diagrams with the OTU one from Traveller5 (flipped the galaxy map from Wiki as it is the wrong orientation otherwise - sorry for resulting upside-down text)...