Extraterritoriality

[Spartan159]

Premise: Space is Imperial territory. Starports are Imperial territory on Member (Client state?) planets. Just what are customs boats doing anyway, Issuing warnings on local law levels and enforcing Imperial High justice? Wouldn't local law enforcement be out of their jurisdiction in space or Starport entry/exit corridors? As far as smuggling goes as long as I don't stray from Imperial "territory" (just passing through) isn't it just too bad on the locals? (Just cause salt is taboo here...)

I suppose the local Fleet/SDBs can enforce no fly or no landing zones and prevent wilderness refueling without permits/fees but if you are in the designated approach corridors or on the Starport, can they bother you without potential Imperial entanglements?

This has been the morning musings of someone with not enough sleep due to sinus headaches, forgive my lack of search-Fu. If this has been covered somewhere (and I'm sure it has been at some point) toss me a much appreciated link, please. Now to find that Snub SMG loaded with tranq...

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

its discussed in the Spinward marches book (or at least the MgT version. I assume it is broadly similar to the earlier editions in most elements.)

the following is based on that, and off the top of my head.

Just what are customs boats doing anyway, Issuing warnings on local law levels and enforcing Imperial High justice? Wouldn't local law enforcement be out of their jurisdiction in space or Starport entry/exit corridors?

the membership treaty lets a member world exercise customs authority out to the 100 diameter limit. any ship passing the jump limit can be searched by the locals.

a local ship can still conduct stop and search ops beyond the 100D limit, but only in its role as part of the imperial colonial fleet.

As far as smuggling goes as long as I don't stray from Imperial "territory" (just passing through) isn't it just too bad on the locals? (Just cause salt is taboo here...)

the "locally banned goods" issue is something of a grey area form what I can recall. if your beyond the 100D limit, they can't touch you for having goods they ban (but can still get you for goods banned by the imperium). I think you are allowed to land at the imperial starport with such goods (if that's the only place to refuel, then you kind of need too), but not certain off the top of my head.

I seem to remember it was written in such a way that the GM had wiggle room to let it suit his current plot..

 

[whulorigan]

I think you are allowed to land at the imperial starport with such goods (if that's the only place to refuel, then you kind of need too), but not certain off the top of my head.

I seem to remember it was written in such a way that the GM had wiggle room to let it suit his current plot..

I believe the general idea is that if you are landing/docking at the Imperial Port and your cargo manifest says that the cargo destination is not on-world, you are fine, but would probably need to register its presence (declare it) aboard ship with Imperial/local authorities. If you have non-cargo items aboard that are illegal locally, they would need to be declared to Imperial/Local Starport authorities. In either case, you are normally fine as long as they do not leave the Starport Extrality Line. And as long as your destination is the Imperial Starport, you shouldn't have a problem while in transit, either.

(But depending on the world, you can bet that local authorities might be keeping their eyes on you, depending on what you are carrying aboard your ship . . . ).

 

[Quint]

I always saw there being two distinct groups of "customs" local and Imperial. Local customs is the equivalent of a city's harbor police, while Imperial customs is more like the Coast Guard. Both can end up working the same territory, even working the "same" crimes, but with different legal authority and jurisdictions. Plus, in developed systems that have their own planetary navy, they have their own local CG - but the Imperial presence is also likely to be increased (due to increased contraband, etc.) and it balances out.

That's not including the ability of the Imperial Navy and Scout Service to conduct hoc ad inspections.

D.

 

[samuelvss]

IIRC, the local and Imperial authorities have concurrent jurisdiction in space from 10 to 100 diameters; within 10 is strictly local; without 100 is strictly Imperial. On the ground, or in a highport, inside the extraterritoriality line is Impie jurisdiction, law, etc.; outside, strictly local.

Customs inspections, where'er they be, are for the purpose of enforcing the law in effect where they occur. Commerce passes unrestricted by local law through starports, and Impie space. If the Highport is within 100 to 10 D zone, and a ship is headed for it through such space, and its loaded to the gills with cargo that is properly manifested, but illegal on the world, canon is, I believe silent on whether this can be seized by the locals. IMTU, it clearly cannot. I do not read the intent of the OTU as such, otherwise Highports would all have to be outside 100D, or the free trade between stars (but not outside the XT line) would be meaningless.

IMTU, customs patrols are mostly used in space on ships that appear to be in some manner either evading or not clearly availing themselves of channels; in the alternative, they are used to reduce the Highport delays by allowing pre-inspection during maneuver. There is always the much cheaper inspection on docking.

Customs is all about making sure, if it's illegal outside the XT line, it's not going to cross out; if it's illegal inside the XT, it's subject to seizure, period.

The real issue, which I have never seen properly addressed in CT, is what, outside of nuclear weapons, slaves, and treasonous materials, is per se illegal in Impie space.

Cargo has to be manifested; got it. I buy a couple of tons of laser carbines in an industrial system, with a Law Level of 4. Can't take them across the XT line, onto the world. I manifest them, jump, and sell them, in the starport, on the next system over, Law Level 9, because I get a sweet deal: Broker-3, and I would have even eaten the commission and moved on to the next system (Law Level B) if it was not a good enough offer. At no point, even though these would be illegal on either world, am I in trouble.

Now the locals, IMTU, if they spotted these (which would likely be just on the manifest) would of course track them in and out, but they're not going to seize them. I will like not be allowed to do a wilderness refuel, and if I'm not playing nice with SPA, keeping everything transparent, then I'm likely to get boarded, and even my cargo seized by the locals, out to 100D. I may even be given a hard time by the Impies outside 100D.

My read.

 

[whulorigan]

Customs inspections, where'er they be, are for the purpose of enforcing the law in effect where they occur. Commerce passes unrestricted by local law through starports, and Impie space. If the Highport is within 100 to 10 D zone, and a ship is headed for it through such space, and its loaded to the gills with cargo that is properly manifested, but illegal on the world, canon is, I believe silent on whether this can be seized by the locals. IMTU, it clearly cannot. I do not read the intent of the OTU as such, otherwise Highports would all have to be outside 100D, or the free trade between stars (but not outside the XT line) would be meaningless.

Agreed. The primary purpose of having the Imperially-operated Starport, remember, is to foster free-trade between member-worlds throughout the Imperium. One world trying to assert its local authority over trading vessels operating in the local space of the system in order to seize cargo would be directly detrimental to the promotion of free-trade on the Imperial-level (especially for systems that are necessary astrographic waypoints). Local forces would have to have a clear and justifiable "probable cause" that the cargo/contraband is headed to its own world as a destination in order to justify interfering in Imperial Trade, IMO.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Is it just the surface of the main world? Why can't goods be illegal in their SYSTEM? Shouldn't they be able to keep illegal goods from entering the orbit of their main world? Orbital and other stations, moons, asteroid belts, other planets in the system?
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Even if it is just the surface of their world outside the star port that they have jurisdiction over...

Landing ships somewhere other than the star port may be allowed on some worlds.

Ships may launch a shuttle or other small craft which need not pass through the star port.

Even if all traffic is SUPPOSED to go through the star port, are you going to escort every single ship to make sure they don't deviate? Responding after the fact leaves the possibility of cargo being offloaded before you get there. Maybe even air dropped.

Even traffic going through the star port can drop a cargo container in space somewhere.

So intercepting incoming ships and inspecting them, even if a random selection, can reduce the likelihood of smuggling.

If goods that are illegal locally but allowed by the Imps are just "passing through" the ship can be watched more closely, escorted, and perhaps reinspected when departing to make sure the locally illegal goods stay put.

Would the Imperials say anything if local customs inspects a ship a distance out from the world, finds illegal cargo, takes it, and returns it only when the ship is outbound?

Local forces would have to have a clear and justifiable "probable cause" that the cargo/contraband is headed to its own world as a destination in order to justify interfering in Imperial Trade, IMO.

That could be as simple as you are in our system and you know it's illegal here so you should not have come.

"But I only have a jump 1 ship and needed to pass through" may not be is an excuse. The ships with a better jump capability are the ones that haul that type of cargo. Excellent opportunity for the not so perfect good guy just trying to make a buck. You are not trying to smuggle goods into a world but you are trying to sneak them past.

As others have said, the Imperials facilitate trade. They help set up star ports, help protects trade routes from pirates. Don't see anything in the rules that says they force people to allow trade. In fact, maybe the opposite. The law levels indicate worlds where no off worlders are allowed. Others can restrict tech such that only raw materials and simple hand crafted items are allowed to be traded.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Is it just the surface of the main world? Why can't goods be illegal in their SYSTEM? Shouldn't they be able to keep illegal goods from entering the orbit of their main world? Orbital and other stations, moons, asteroid belts, other planets in the system?
-------------.

going off the MgT spinward marches book, its not "their" system, its the Imperium's. the mainworld's claim ends at the 100D line, barring some extra provisions on the membership treaty (for example, that they can levy a charge on ships refuelling at a gas giant). any facilities in the outer system are maintained on the sufferance of the imperium (which is granted as standard, as part of membership, unless the planet is being extremely uncooperative).

 

[whulorigan]

"But I only have a jump 1 ship and needed to pass through" may not be is an excuse. The ships with a better jump capability are the ones that haul that type of cargo.

As others have said, the Imperials facilitate trade. They help set up star ports, help protects trade routes from pirates. Don't see anything in the rules that says they force people to allow trade.

If one member world is allowed to maintain its own independent trade policies "off-world", then they influence or restrict the trade of other member-worlds whose trade is passing through their system. A single world could then divert or choke other worlds' trade. This then becomes a legitimate pretext for inter-world wars.

I believe that is part of the reason for having the independent extraterritorial starports in the first place. Otherwise, why would the Imperium bother to establish Imperially-run starports? Let the individual worlds do it at their own expense.

 

[samuelvss]

going off the MgT spinward marches book, its not "their" system, its the Imperium's. the mainworld's claim ends at the 100D line, barring some extra provisions on the membership treaty (for example, that they can levy a charge on ships refuelling at a gas giant). any facilities in the outer system are maintained on the sufferance of the imperium (which is granted as standard, as part of membership, unless the planet is being extremely uncooperative).

That's exactly as I understand; It is the member world, with it's own UWP. The law level is for the world. That is under CT, and from what I hear of MgT, it's the same. Now the other planets in the system could be independent, or a "Captive Government," but even in the latter case, the 10D/100D jurisdictional limits would still presumably apply.

 

[McPerth]

Just to compare (keeping all distances) with real world, could a ship dock in a port where part of its cargo is ilegal, as long as this cargo is kept in the ship?

To put an example, imagine I have a ship in the years where alcohol was forbidden in US. I buy in Jamaica a cargo of suggar and another of rum, and I go to New York to sell the suggar while keeping the rum in the ship to be sold in Canada. Could I dock in NY with the cargo?

I'm not an expert in such laws, but I guess I could dock, as long as this ilegal cargo is kept in my ship, but I should expect to have my ship quite watched while docked (and probably while in territorial waters).

The main difference with the extrality zone, as I understand it, is that in Travellre I can even unload and sell this (ilegal in the planet) cargo to another ship, as long as it does not leave the extrality zone.

Also see that most starports where the imperila really rule (and so its laws and extrality zones are most kept) are the higher quality ones, and those use to have a highport that really easies all this legal mess. Poorer ports (class D and E) are more likely to be serviced by locals, even if keeping lip service to extrality zone, unless there is a Scout base or a similar facility.

 

[Azezel]

As others have said, the Imperials facilitate trade. They help set up star ports, help protects trade routes from pirates. Don't see anything in the rules that says they force people to allow trade.

It's a matter of livelihood. The Imperium - the Nobility make their monies from tax and tariffs on trade. No-one has to tell them to tell people to trade. Any world which interfears with trade will rapidly find herself staring down the business end of the local Count or Duke's navy. Perhaps IN if things get really bad.

---
Scene, Ducal Court of Subsector Whatever-

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: Your Grace, you wanted to see me? Is... Is this about Arglebargle's new Customs policy? Are you Unhappy?

Duke: No! No, of course not... The Imperium respects the independance of all memeber worlds. You must and may do as you feel best.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: Thank you, your Grace!

Duke: In fact, I'm glad you feel comfortable standing up for your rights. That's why I called you here today. I wanted to tell you I've just sent the Dauntless in a 'goodwill' mission to Arglebargle!

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: You sent a Battlecruiser on a goodwill visit!?

Duke: And four companies of Marines.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: Um...

Duke: I'm feeling a lot of goodwill towards Arglebargle right now.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: I see, your Grace... Um, can I be excused ohgodIreallyhavetosendamessage.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: Of course. If you hurry you'll just catch the X-Boat. I've just sent a message too - to the Imperial Navy in case Dauntless needs reinforcements.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: Reinforcements of what, your Grace?

Duke: Of goodwill, of course!

 

[Quint]

A couple of other questions that come to mind?

What is the 10/100 limit on a Asteroid Belt?

What about spaceports?

What about space stations? E.g. The "main world" is an space station or other orbital habitat zipping around a Gas Giant?

This actually seems to be mixing two different things - extraterritoriality as defined ala international waters and dockage (the 10/100 limit) while the starport piece of things seems more like the international zones of certain airports, or some sort of free port status.

D.

 

[rancke]

It's a matter of livelihood. The Imperium - the Nobility make their monies from tax and tariffs on trade.

They do?

No-one has to tell them to tell people to trade. Any world which interfears with trade will rapidly find herself staring down the business end of the local Count or Duke's navy. Perhaps IN if things get really bad.

Interstellar trade is portrayed as very small compared to planetary economies. If the Imperium was funded exclusively by tariffs on trade the high-tech, high-population worlds would be able to tell it to take a hike. As it is, the member worlds collectively control twice as many military assets as the Imperium.

Duke: In fact, I'm glad you feel comfortable standing up for your rights. That's why I called you here today. I wanted to tell you I've just sent the Dauntless in a 'goodwill' mission to Arglebargle!

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: How nice. It will be able to watch our system navy on maneuvers.

Duke: And four companies of Marines.

Arglebargle IX's Ambasador: How nice. Incidentally, we just added another full division equipped to Imperial standard to our army.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A couple of other questions that come to mind?

What is the 10/100 limit on a Asteroid Belt?

Whatever the membership charter defines it to be.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

Is it just the surface of the main world? Why can't goods be illegal in their SYSTEM? Shouldn't they be able to keep illegal goods from entering the orbit of their main world? Orbital and other stations, moons, asteroid belts, other planets in the system?

going off the MgT spinward marches book, its not "their" system, its the Imperium's. the mainworld's claim ends at the 100D line

Ah, yes, I got a little too zealous in the area controlled by the main world. No to the whole system. No to other planets.

If one member world is allowed to maintain its own independent trade policies "off-world"

Getting silly for a moment - not directed at the original poster so I took their name out.

How about one meter off the surface? 10? 100 meters from the surface? A kilometer?

I'd think a world should be able to control quite a bit of area from their surface, out to and including their orbitals and moons.

Is "off-world" the area beyond 10d or 100d? I'm not sure without combing through the rules. But lets just say that it is a decent ways from the surface and ground based star port.

Please, again the following quotes and responses are not directed at the original poster, I sniped and edited a bunch and took their name out.

If one member world is allowed to maintain its own independent trade policies

They are. The question is more about how far are they allowed to go (in distance and in practices) in enforcing such.

then they influence or restrict the trade of other member-worlds whose trade is passing through their system. A single world could then divert or choke other worlds' trade.

Is it beyond reason to be able to say if your business is not with us then stay out of our air space? Use a ship with a higher jump rating to go past? Go refuel at the gas giant or another planet? Don't come any closer and let to tanker come refuel you? Let customs warehouse certain cargo - it will be returned when you are leaving? Wait here for an escort ship?

Require the need for special contracts/exceptions/arrangements to allow a cargo to "pass through"?

Are there not some amber and red zones within the Imperium because of just this type of thing? Worlds a bit too zealous in controlling their space?

This then becomes a legitimate pretext for inter-world wars.

Again, "illegal" cargoes can still get to their destination without passing through the area controlled by a world.

I believe that is part of the reason for having the independent extraterritorial starports in the first place.

"But I have to pass through! You are restricting trade and the Imperium guarantees it!" What about X port classification? Class E? The ability to stop and obtain fuel is not guaranteed by the Imperium. Even class C and D ports may be problematic for a decent trade ship. Unrefined fuel and if the ship breaks down there is little repair ability.

why would the Imperium bother to establish Imperially-run starports?

Because the dice said so? :rofl:

To help monitor and control things the Imperium says are illegal?

Perhaps as a landing pad for diplomatic missions, or military vessels to help enforce their rule?

To help facilitate trade? Facilitate, not force. Does the Imperium get involved if one world wants to embargo another?


I still wonder if the rules are specific on how restrictive or controlling worlds can be within the areas around their world?

 

[Spartan159]

Thanks for all the input. What I'm gathering here is that the Imperial Navy controls deep space, 100 planetary diameters out, presumably some artificial zone for asteroid belts. in that volume of space they can stop you, check your manifest and search/seize cargoes/passengers that violate Imperial Law (WMD, Ine Givar?)

Between 10 and 100 diameters out is shared by the planet and the Imperium, where the locals can do what? If you have a manifest and state you are headed for the starport what happens? Speaking of diameters, are all the planets in the system owned, independent, held in trust? Can a world say no gas giant refueling? refusing the ability to fuel is sure gonna hurt trade...

Inside 10 diameters is planet controlled, OK. As long as you don't try to land outside the starport. Then they nail you for local contraband. If they can do anything about it, how well is a tech 5 planet going to control a merchant landing wherever and refueling from the local lake while trading on the ramp?

I'm thinking there would have to be "corridors" between 100 D and the Starport that are also extraterritorial. Stray outside the corridor and you are fair game for the local laws. Inside the corridor they will warn you and you will definately have official attention from that point on

 

[whulorigan]

In the end it comes down to a GM's understanding of the Imperium, and what it means to be a member world of said Imperium. It is not so much a matter of trade with the world in question from the world's viewpoint, but rather what rights and privileges are surrendered by the world in order to become an Imperial member-world. This has implications for the nature of starports and trade/customs on worlds outside the Imperium (particularly concerning worlds which are not Imperial Client States).

Certainly any Imperial member-world can decide to trade or not trade with other worlds as it sees fit. The Imperium does not generally "force" trade on any member world. But that is a different thing from saying that one member-world has the sovereign right to interefere with Imperial trade between other member worlds as an independent third party. It goes to the heart of what being an Imperial member-world means. There may be unique local clauses that are part of any given member-world's membership charter, but becoming part of the Imperium means surrendering certain rights to Imperial sovereignty. This is one of the reasons that multi-world polities are not allowed to join the Imperium as a Polity, but rather the polities must break up and join as individual member worlds.

Of course an Imperial member-world may wish to do or restrict any number of things, but that does not mean the Imperium will allow it. That is the whole point of Imperial jurisdiction and extrality relative to Imperial territory, as compared to local sovereignty and local territory.

 

[Quint]

Thanks for all the input. What I'm gathering here is that the Imperial Navy controls deep space, 100 planetary diameters out, presumably some artificial zone for asteroid belts. in that volume of space they can stop you, check your manifest and search/seize cargoes/passengers that violate Imperial Law (WMD, Ine Givar?)

Between 10 and 100 diameters out is shared by the planet and the Imperium, where the locals can do what? If you have a manifest and state you are headed for the starport what happens? Speaking of diameters, are all the planets in the system owned, independent, held in trust? Can a world say no gas giant refueling? refusing the ability to fuel is sure gonna hurt trade...

Inside 10 diameters is planet controlled, OK. As long as you don't try to land outside the starport. Then they nail you for local contraband. If they can do anything about it, how well is a tech 5 planet going to control a merchant landing wherever and refueling from the local lake while trading on the ramp?

I'm thinking there would have to be "corridors" between 100 D and the Starport that are also extraterritorial. Stray outside the corridor and you are fair game for the local laws. Inside the corridor they will warn you and you will definately have official attention from that point on

Extrapolating from history, those corridors may be very highly controlled as well as access to the starport itself. E.g. All ships must use approved tugs in certain areas or to access certain areas. Perhaps even as far as only planetary pilots are approved, so one has to board and pilot your ship if you want to land. These are both perfectly in line with current/historical practice in some ports.

And to forestall the "but the Imperium..." they're not saying "you shall not enter" but instead saying, "for safety reasons, these are the precautions that are instituted..." Imagine a high tech, high population world with a Type A port and Naval Port on a major trade route/hub with a Scout/Xboat base. The traffic is probably crazy and that isn't likely to be seen as an onerous burden when it comes to safety vs. free trade...

D.

 

[rancke]

I'm thinking there would have to be "corridors" between 100 D and the Starport that are also extraterritorial. Stray outside the corridor and you are fair game for the local laws. Inside the corridor they will warn you and you will definately have official attention from that point on

I think it could be simpler than that. Ask System Control for a flight path to the starport and you'll automatically have extrality.


Hans