Extraterritoriality

[Quint]

It just occurred to me that we are also perhaps conflating multiple levels of "intrusive planetary/Imperial presence" here as well.

So it's one thing to enter the system and then move on, another to make a swing by the local GG to refuel, and yet another to stop at the starport to refuel/resupply. It is likely yet another thing to take on new cargo and passengers as well. These may all have different levels of legal "inquiry" for both planetary and Imperial authorities.

Similarly, it one thing to gain access to the manifest, another thing to be able to check the manifest against the shipping containers, and yet another thing to start opening shipping containers and checking if what it says is in the box is actually there (or if there is anything extra).

All of this of course ignoring the delicate dance of "if you don't let us board and inspect merely means that we're going to inform SPA that you are acting suspiciously and the Director (or Imperial Customs Inspector) owes me a favor and he'll have you grounded for a month on useless safety inspections (auditing your books)" which is probably how things are played out a large portion of the time...

D.

 

[Timerover51]

It just occurred to me that we are also perhaps conflating multiple levels of "intrusive planetary/Imperial presence" here as well.

So it's one thing to enter the system and then move on, another to make a swing by the local GG to refuel, and yet another to stop at the starport to refuel/resupply. It is likely yet another thing to take on new cargo and passengers as well. These may all have different levels of legal "inquiry" for both planetary and Imperial authorities.

Similarly, it one thing to gain access to the manifest, another thing to be able to check the manifest against the shipping containers, and yet another thing to start opening shipping containers and checking if what it says is in the box is actually there (or if there is anything extra).

All of this of course ignoring the delicate dance of "if you don't let us board and inspect merely means that we're going to inform SPA that you are acting suspiciously and the Director (or Imperial Customs Inspector) owes me a favor and he'll have you grounded for a month on useless safety inspections (auditing your books)" which is probably how things are played out a large portion of the time...

D.

It depends on the corruption level of the star port and customs as well. In a lot of Latin American and African countries, if you want something through customs, you better be prepared to pay for the privilege. Note, this is for perfectly legitimate cargo, such as barrels of clothing and household goods for missionaries and relief supplies. Then there is the question of how much is skimmed off of the cargo by the authorities before delivery to the consignee. In the case of corrugated steel sheeting for roofing and building purposes, a typical loss rate in Africa runs about 20%. That occurs during custom inspection.

Until the cargo is delivered, the consignee is not going to pay for it, so no freight charges are paid, assuming that the cargo was carried on a Free On Board basis. Of course, the consignee is only going to pay for the cargo that is actually delivered to him/her/it. Any losses are the responsibility of the carrier.

 

[Selandia]

Just to compare (keeping all distances) with real world, could a ship dock in a port where part of its cargo is ilegal, as long as this cargo is kept in the ship?

To put an example, imagine I have a ship in the years where alcohol was forbidden in US. I buy in Jamaica a cargo of suggar and another of rum, and I go to New York to sell the suggar while keeping the rum in the ship to be sold in Canada. Could I dock in NY with the cargo?
...
The main difference with the extrality zone, as I understand it, is that in Travellre I can even unload and sell this (ilegal in the planet) cargo to another ship, as long as it does not leave the extrality zone.

...

It all depend of the local law of the moment.

Historically, it took an addedum to the Voelker Act to prohibit foreign passenger liners to enter US port with their alcool on board for the return trip.

Foreign flagged ships benefit from the understanding that the law aboard is the law of their flag. However, the harbor is within a contry and the extrality (save for ship of state: USS, USCG, HMS etc... that take it VERY seriously) could be limited. Afterall, that extrality is conventionnal and you may decide that you do not suscribe to, or that you retire from certain provisions of the agreement.

You may decide to impose in your territorial water or zone of economic control various regulation of your own. Environmental regulation (ex: ship with self contained waste management system), safety regulation (ex: double hull for your tanker, maning requirement, your do not get close to highport with defective thruster...), security regulation and Police enforcement (ex: no fly list, intersystem kidnapping...), health regulation...

Now some TI Legaleese is not in the rules. Is there in space the equiv to Territorial water, zone of economic control... and if yes what are they? What about balkanized world.

Main difference with RW lies in the fact the extrality of TI starport does not cleanly relate to flag granted extrality. Starport are more like "another country" since the starship do not come to your shores and ports. They land elsewere, then some hauler get across your border and deal with your custom. The RW comparaison would be: I am prevented to dock in RDC because I am environmentally unfriendly to the Congo river. I go to Cabinda (Angola) because they have different reg, land my goods and have a hauler bring them to RDC.

T5 discuss starport and starport authorities p 304-312. They are not Imperial bodies, they are local creatures. However, the system works on the assumption (p.309) that the Imperium and starships operator will require starport, while local authority will give varied mission to the star port, indlucing, (p.308)

The Mission of the Starport
The starport, as an organization, is committed to a mission
(that mission may or may not be clearly or publicly stated).
Typical missions are:
To efficiently provide facilities and services necessary
to accommodate interplanetary and interstellar traffic
for this world.
To produce a maximum of income for the organization
which operates this starport.
To insulate this world, to the maximum extent possible,
from outside influences.
To meet the minimum requirements for maintaining
interstellar trade.

The last two suppose that even when trying to insulate a world from external influence, there is a starport and a minimum requirement for interstellar trade is required (otherwise, there would be a X starport and red zone: expect nothing other than be shoot on sight...not exclusive meaning of XRed of course).

Lot of leg room for YTU.

have fun

Selandia

 

[aramis]

You may decide to impose in your territorial water or zone of economic control various regulation of your own. Environmental regulation (ex: ship with self contained waste management system), safety regulation (ex: double hull for your tanker, maning requirement, your do not get close to highport with defective thruster...), security regulation and Police enforcement (ex: no fly list, intersystem kidnapping...), health regulation...

Now some TI Legaleese is not in the rules. Is there in space the equiv to Territorial water, zone of economic control... and if yes what are they? What about balkanized world.

in the OTU, yes.
Exclusive control: 10 diameters
Overlap Impie/planetary: 10-100 diameters.
Source: COACC (MT)

 

[Selandia]

in the OTU, yes.
Exclusive control: 10 diameters
Overlap Impie/planetary: 10-100 diameters.
Source: COACC (MT)

Thanks, I do not play MT, so my lapse...

have fun

Selandia

 

[McPerth]

It all depend of the local law of the moment.
(...)

TY for your wxplanations.

Foreign flagged ships benefit from the understanding that the law aboard is the law of their flag. However, the harbor is within a contry and the extrality (save for ship of state: USS, USCG, HMS etc... that take it VERY seriously) could be limited. Afterall, that extrality is conventionnal and you may decide that you do not suscribe to, or that you retire from certain provisions of the agreement.

This arises another question to me: Which flag are comercial starships in OTU assumed to bear? The one of the planet they're registred on? the Imperial one? another one?

In OTU any crime commited in space falls under Imperial law, so, as I understand it, it would be assumed that most ships are Imperial territory (not any of it's subject planets'), at least while it is in space; so, again as I undertand it, that would be as if IRW they bear Imperial flagg, regardless their registry ports...

 

[Selandia]

the example given: Volker act, is the example of fluctuating local law over time.

The flag in the OTU, unless I miss something in canon other than T5 or CT, is taken IMHO to be Imperial, Darrian, Sword, Zhodani... If register in a non aligned world, then you are XYZ or whatever. Formal ruling? I still have to find them.


As to what is in a flag, for purpose of using the leg room left by the OTU, it is a three sided issue:

First, a country/sovereign power has to issue its flag to you, that means that you satisfy local requirements, including manning and fiscal requirement (no surprise, low taxes low regulation flags are popular)

Second, the authorities of other powers have to recognize your flag and not apply the rules applicable to their own flag. Ex during the napoleonic war, the British did not recognizing US flag for purpose of crew immunity and press ganged sailors into the RN.

It also means that once your flag is recognized by others, its does come with drawbacks. A system may restrict in system traffic (between the planets of a system) to locally registered ships (that pays their taxes locally, use local manpower and may even be compelled to use locally built ship). If RW is transposed to TU, there will be freedom of pavillon for international /interstellar trade : You cannot prevent foreign flagged -or off system registered- starship to use your starports for interstellar trade, to load or unload, while trade between spaceport within the same power/country/polity is fully regulated by the relevant local autorities.

In MTU I play that imperial bureaucrats require all trade within the TI to be TI "flagged" as to allow better control. However, local registration may be required for in system dealing because local bureaucrats like to collect taxes and foster local employment.

have fun

Selandia

 

[rancke]

in the OTU, yes.
Exclusive control: 10 diameters
Overlap Impie/planetary: 10-100 diameters.
Source: COACC (MT)

That's one piece of canon that I find overly simplistic. You can believe that this applies to every single Imperial member world, but I prefer to believe that this is the most common arrangement, but subject to quirks due to various historical and practical concerns.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

A TL9+ world has the technological base to exploit all the resources on most bodies in the system. By the time you get to TL15 industrial worlds I have a hard time accepting that they don't claim dominion over every useful body in their system, so does their treaty with the Imperium allow their own paramilitary and military forces to enforce their laws anywhere in their system or does it have to end 100D from the nearest planet, moon, asteroid?

What about balkanised systems rather than worlds?

 

[Limburger59]

Extrapolating from history, those corridors may be very highly controlled as well as access to the starport itself. E.g. All ships must use approved tugs in certain areas or to access certain areas. Perhaps even as far as only planetary pilots are approved, so one has to board and pilot your ship if you want to land. These are both perfectly in line with current/historical practice in some ports.D.

I recall taking the train from Koln to West Berlin. At the East German border they changed engines (the approved tug/escort) and put on East German conductors. They stamped my passport and took some of my decadent dollars for a transit visa. They didn't look at my luggage and the train didn't stop until it reached Berlin.

I could picture a similar setup at the 100d limit, but it seems that would be the norm with amber zoned worlds.

Anyone change planes at King Khalid International Airport in Saudi Arabia?

 

[aramis]

That's one piece of canon that I find overly simplistic. You can believe that this applies to every single Imperial member world, but I prefer to believe that this is the most common arrangement, but subject to quirks due to various historical and practical concerns.


Hans

It's described as imperial law. Law tends to be simplistic in autocracies, with on the ground exceptions being just that: exceptions. The 3I is an autocracy. I wouldn't apply it to anything but the 3I as a blanket, but it's clearly intended to be the imperial norm.

 

[rancke]

It's described as imperial law. Law tends to be simplistic in autocracies, with on the ground exceptions being just that: exceptions. The 3I is an autocracy. I wouldn't apply it to anything but the 3I as a blanket, but it's clearly intended to be the imperial norm.

I don't see how that differs from what I was propounding. Either the statement is to be taken literally, in which case there are no exceptions (which I think is overly simplistic and highly implausible), or there are exceptions. How many and what kind of exceptions are subject to debate, but I just don't believe in the no exceptions at all.

As Mike said, worlds with space technology are likely to want jurisdiction throughout their systems, and it's a reasonable desire.


Hans

 

[epicenter00]

I've always thought there's two (very broad) types of Imperial member worlds:

First Type: Those that negotiated their entry into the Imperium, so have various stipulations and so on. Most of these worlds were settled long before the Third Imperium and prefer to maintain some facade of independence. Such worlds would have a variety of local arrangements for customs and so on. These worlds have Starport extraterritoriality and it's quite important.

Second Type: The second type are "imperial worlds." Stereotypically, these are worlds that were settled after the foundation and stabilization of the Third Imperium (so are generally 700 years or less in age). However, a large number of older worlds also fall into the category. These are worlds that have no separate local laws. They simply follow Imperial law on all things; the laws that apply in extraterritorial starports on other worlds are identical to the planetary laws. This makes your world very attractive to interstellar traders and interstellar business as they can come to your world knowing totally what to expect. Worlds like this might have a lot of the normally Imperial Navy run customs services offloaded to local forces because they enforce the same laws.

 

[simonh]

A TL9+ world has the technological base to exploit all the resources on most bodies in the system. By the time you get to TL15 industrial worlds I have a hard time accepting that they don't claim dominion over every useful body in their system, so does their treaty with the Imperium allow their own paramilitary and military forces to enforce their laws anywhere in their system or does it have to end 100D from the nearest planet, moon, asteroid?

What about balkanised systems rather than worlds?

I think it makes sense that Imperial law applies in interplanetary space, otherwise ships form other Imperial worlds with different laws, which are just passing through the system, would be subject to local laws. That doesn't seem tennable. IMHO it's no different from maritime law in which local laws apply within territorial waters and international law applies outside them.

Consider Hawaii. Within Hawaii's territorial waters and airspace US law applies. To fly or sail or fly from LA to Hawaii you have to transit through international waters and/or airspace. I think a similar arrangement is the pervasive norm across the Imperium.

Systems with other arrangements may be possible, via special treaty that mean local law applies system wide due to some exceptional circumstance, but I expect that would result in an automatic Amber or even Red zone classification. There may be other systems where Imperial military law, or some other special legal framework applies.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rancke]

Oh, I expect that the Imperium would have joint jurisdiction even in systems where the government had jurisdiction between the planets of the system.


Hans

 

[simonh]

Oh, I expect that the Imperium would have joint jurisdiction even in systems where the government had jurisdiction between the planets of the system.

There's also likely to be a distiction between the legal domain that applies on board a ship, and the laws governing the activities of the ship such as navigation, responding to traffic controll communications, rendering assistance in an emergency, etc.

Simon Hibbs

 

[samuelvss]

I've always thought there's two (very broad) types of Imperial member worlds:

First Type: ...

Second Type: The second type are "imperial worlds." Stereotypically, these are worlds that were settled after the foundation and stabilization of the Third Imperium (so are generally 700 years or less in age). However, a large number of older worlds also fall into the category. These are worlds that have no separate local laws. They simply follow Imperial law on all things; the laws that apply in extraterritorial starports on other worlds are identical to the planetary laws. This makes your world very attractive to interstellar traders and interstellar business as they can come to your world knowing totally what to expect. Worlds like this might have a lot of the normally Imperial Navy run customs services offloaded to local forces because they enforce the same laws.

I think this is far from the OTU: a whole lot of law levels, and the basics of Imperial law would be different, as I understand it. An interesting concept, but then Imperial Law has to cover a lot of things it currently doesn't: textbooks, traffic tickets, etc. The whole idea is to let the localities, the worlds, run themselves.

 

[samuelvss]

I think it makes sense that Imperial law applies in interplanetary space, otherwise ships form other Imperial worlds with different laws, which are just passing through the system, would be subject to local laws. That doesn't seem tennable. IMHO it's no different from maritime law in which local laws apply within territorial waters and international law applies outside them.

Consider Hawaii. Within Hawaii's territorial waters and airspace US law applies. To fly or sail or fly from LA to Hawaii you have to transit through international waters and/or airspace. I think a similar arrangement is the pervasive norm across the Imperium.

...
Simon Hibbs

It also makes sense that one can go to the system, and transit through it with, or sell at the starport, cargo that cannot be taken to one or more worlds in that system, outside the XT line. It can continue in trade; otherwise, the law level effectively applying to trade goods travelling down a Main would be the highest on the Main!