Except, of course, that 8000 credits for a parsec is quite inflated. For dedicated passenger carriers, the logical cost for a stateroom is about the same as the cost for 4 dtons of cargo (actually, including extra crew resources required, more like 5 dtons). How much that should cost depends on the version of Traveller, but 2-4 kCr/parsec is more likely.
Far Trader cargo/Freight manifest questions
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
You've got the right idea, Anthony, but you've neglected:
Paying for your life suport (something you don't need to do for most cargo).
So we have, for passenger costs:
- Paying for your steward
- Paying for passenger medical care (distinct from crew)
- Entertainment, food, etc.
- Life support
- Cost of the hull space
- Security (passengers are more of an issue than cargo usually)
But yes, 8000 is probably high. Assuming the freight costs make economic sense!
Paying for your life suport (something you don't need to do for most cargo).
So we have, for passenger costs:
- Paying for your steward
- Paying for passenger medical care (distinct from crew)
- Entertainment, food, etc.
- Life support
- Cost of the hull space
- Security (passengers are more of an issue than cargo usually)
But yes, 8000 is probably high. Assuming the freight costs make economic sense!
IIRC, and I may not, I've seen it as high as a few thousand CR per person per two weeks. That's a fairly substantial investment over the course of a year. With a crew of five and three passengers, that could easily be (even at 1000 CR a head per 2 wks) 16,000 Cr per month, or 192,000 CR per year.
I think it depends what set of figures you use.
I think it depends what set of figures you use.
Who knows?
The filters may be expensive. The technologies used may concentrate pollutants and the pollutants may incur disposal charges. There may even be Imperial Anti-Dumping laws. And then again, I could totally mis-recollect.
I mean, what are the odds, mind like a steel trap, and all?
The filters may be expensive. The technologies used may concentrate pollutants and the pollutants may incur disposal charges. There may even be Imperial Anti-Dumping laws. And then again, I could totally mis-recollect.
I mean, what are the odds, mind like a steel trap, and all?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Kaladorn, you remember correctly
.
In CT and MT life support involves an overhead cost of 2000Cr per trip made for each stateroom, even if unoccupied, and each low berth costs 100Cr per trip.
In CT and MT life support involves an overhead cost of 2000Cr per trip made for each stateroom, even if unoccupied, and each low berth costs 100Cr per trip.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
CT Book 2 states per passenger and crew or per occupied stateroom, with double occupancy costing double. (Book 2 Pg 7,8,11.)
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Kaladorn, you remember correctly.
In CT and MT life support involves an overhead cost of 2000Cr per trip made for each stateroom, even if unoccupied, and each low berth costs 100Cr per trip.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Absolutely. It means that you have to cacullate the crew life support along with the starship payment for monthly outlayt of funds and budget in KCr2 less per High or Mid passenger.
I could never explain the life support costs, but it's part of a challenging equation, so I also couldn't just strike out that line in the book.
If heat-storage-disposal counts as 'life support' (which it doesn't), a lot of the cost could be in per-jump replacements of a thermal storage coil in the engineering room which absorbs whatever heat energy is dissipated from the ship. Thus the service charge, plus the reason ships can 'run silent' in space without a signature, plus the reason ships don't have massively huge radiator fins like monstrous '57 Chevys. Kills three birds with one stone. But it's not very convincing.
If heat-storage-disposal counts as 'life support' (which it doesn't), a lot of the cost could be in per-jump replacements of a thermal storage coil in the engineering room which absorbs whatever heat energy is dissipated from the ship. Thus the service charge, plus the reason ships can 'run silent' in space without a signature, plus the reason ships don't have massively huge radiator fins like monstrous '57 Chevys. Kills three birds with one stone. But it's not very convincing.
Hi Guys,
Quite an interesting array of responses. For the gentleman who asked what Far Trader is like - it uses the per parsec model of payments flat out. Incomes are not 1,000 credits per parsec like the old rules - but then again, you're not paying the same high costs in life support ect.
In all, my money is on FAR TRADER for an economic ruleset that makes actual sense. The idea that the income generated in CT (or d20?) is per parsec would make sense of sorts. Unfortunately, from what I've read *excluding* the adventures - the price is per "passage" not per "parsec". In playing Traveller back in 1980 (I think it was 1980 at the University of Buffalo) on up to today, I have never *once* seen any GM interpret it to mean per parsec. It wasn't until Far Trader came out that took the stance that the prices charged for transport (either cargo, freight, or passengers) is based on the concept that if it costs X credits to run your business, you have to charge enough for your services to at the very least recoup your X credit expenses just to stay afloat, or an additional 10% or so of X cost for upgrades, repairs, etc.
In any event, FAR TRADER is a bit complex (a strike against it unfortunately) and a bit more realistic (A plus!) Question is, whether or not the strike and plus make it worth the players and GM's energy to use. Keep in mind too, that Far Trader was designed for use with GURPS TRAVELLER ship prices.
Just for laughs? Someone should list what the prices are for a Jump 1 200 ton free trader ship based on the following:
Book 2 CT
High Guard CT
Megatraveller
Traveller New Era
T4
GURPS TRAVELLER
D20
Then list the average value of Freight (the speculative cargo rules in FAR TRADER make it nearly impossible to compare apples to apples unfortunately). If you want to list speculative cargo costs (on average) that would be interesting as well.
My initial problem however remains. A bit of frieght is waiting on planet A. Lets say that the destination is 14 parsecs away for a Jump 2 far trader ship. That makes it 7 jumps. If the average time of delay in GURPS traveller is 12 days per jump, then the expected delivery date for such a freight package should be 84 days into the future. Since GURPS TRAVELLER states that jumps take 168 hours +/- 10% (with no rules for when to apply the plus or minus 10%!) it would imply that jumps taking longer than 168 hours are out of the hands of the operators - who could justifiably call it an act of the supreme diety! Just a few thoughts.
Hal
Quite an interesting array of responses. For the gentleman who asked what Far Trader is like - it uses the per parsec model of payments flat out. Incomes are not 1,000 credits per parsec like the old rules - but then again, you're not paying the same high costs in life support ect.
In all, my money is on FAR TRADER for an economic ruleset that makes actual sense. The idea that the income generated in CT (or d20?) is per parsec would make sense of sorts. Unfortunately, from what I've read *excluding* the adventures - the price is per "passage" not per "parsec". In playing Traveller back in 1980 (I think it was 1980 at the University of Buffalo) on up to today, I have never *once* seen any GM interpret it to mean per parsec. It wasn't until Far Trader came out that took the stance that the prices charged for transport (either cargo, freight, or passengers) is based on the concept that if it costs X credits to run your business, you have to charge enough for your services to at the very least recoup your X credit expenses just to stay afloat, or an additional 10% or so of X cost for upgrades, repairs, etc.
In any event, FAR TRADER is a bit complex (a strike against it unfortunately) and a bit more realistic (A plus!) Question is, whether or not the strike and plus make it worth the players and GM's energy to use. Keep in mind too, that Far Trader was designed for use with GURPS TRAVELLER ship prices.
Just for laughs? Someone should list what the prices are for a Jump 1 200 ton free trader ship based on the following:
Book 2 CT
High Guard CT
Megatraveller
Traveller New Era
T4
GURPS TRAVELLER
D20
Then list the average value of Freight (the speculative cargo rules in FAR TRADER make it nearly impossible to compare apples to apples unfortunately). If you want to list speculative cargo costs (on average) that would be interesting as well.
My initial problem however remains. A bit of frieght is waiting on planet A. Lets say that the destination is 14 parsecs away for a Jump 2 far trader ship. That makes it 7 jumps. If the average time of delay in GURPS traveller is 12 days per jump, then the expected delivery date for such a freight package should be 84 days into the future. Since GURPS TRAVELLER states that jumps take 168 hours +/- 10% (with no rules for when to apply the plus or minus 10%!) it would imply that jumps taking longer than 168 hours are out of the hands of the operators - who could justifiably call it an act of the supreme diety! Just a few thoughts.
Hal
Could be replacing a heat absorptive substance (liquid) which is vented (along with waste heat) either in Jump or in the outer system at a convenient moment (goodbye heat!). You could vent minute amounts all the time, but there goes thermal stealth. Venting one hot bit in the outer system isn't so bad... you may be well away from there before anyone arrives even *if* you are detected, which you might not be if you did it, say in the gas giant atmosphere or behind a moonlet.
Yeah, that's a good suggestion, Kaladorn. Makes sense, too, since it's probably "easier" to use a portion of a thermal liquid and just "top off the tank", so to speak, with whatever amount was used.
<done-to-death>
The problem with my handwave is the per-person cost. Can one person add that much heat to a 200 dton free trader? I don't believe it. Yet the fee is prorated and tagged as "life support".
The lone freighter captain is only getting charged Cr2000 a trip, while my full-service ship gets hit for, say, Cr24,000. Ouch. That's a lot of food.
Granted, space travel ought to be expensive, but... where does that money go?
</done-to-death>
<done-to-death>
The problem with my handwave is the per-person cost. Can one person add that much heat to a 200 dton free trader? I don't believe it. Yet the fee is prorated and tagged as "life support".
The lone freighter captain is only getting charged Cr2000 a trip, while my full-service ship gets hit for, say, Cr24,000. Ouch. That's a lot of food.
Granted, space travel ought to be expensive, but... where does that money go?
</done-to-death>
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Obviously the money goes to the banks to pay for all these stupid merchants that think they can beat the odds.
From The Travellers Handbook, page 342...
"High Passage: ...High passage costs Cr10,000 and provides food and lodging for 1 person for a distance of 1 jump. Double occupancy is allowed at a discounted rate of Cr16,000 (Cr8000 per passenger)."
"Middle Passage:...Middle passage costs Cr8,000 and provides food and lodging for one person for a distance of 1 jump. Double occupancy is allowed at a discounted rate of Cr13,000 (Cr6500 per passenger)."
"Low Passage:...Low passage costs Cr1,000 and includes a baggage allowance of 10 kilograms."
As you can see, while Low passage does not specifically state it, both Middle and High passage clearly state the cost is per jump, so the passage is from one world to the next one. If free trader 123 is starting at planet A, and travelling to planets B, C, and ending up at planet D, someone who books High passage at A and intends to disembark at D would pay Cr30,000 for their passage, while a Middle Passage from A to C would be Cr16,000. The listing is per jump, not per parsec, so a ship making J1's makes the same per passenger as one making J2's.
Life support costs are as follows, Cr1000 per week for High Passage and Crew Officers, Cr750 per week for Middle Passage and regular Crew, and Cr50 per week for Low Passage.
Cargo Rates are Cr1000 per ton for regular cargo, regardless of distance, Priority cargo is CR1000 per ton per parsec, but generally have a 14 day delivery date, Hazardous cargo is Cr10,000 per ton per jump, and Security cargo is CR5000 per ton per jump.
With these numbers, it seems to me that a free trader captain, with the proper planning and thought to his route, can make a profit easily enough to ensure continued ownership of his ship.
Stay away from low pop worlds (where there usually sin't much cargo anyway), try to get Hazardous, Priority, or Security (if your ship is armed) cargos first, then fill up the rest of the hold with whatever cargo is going to your next port of call, fill your low berths as much as possible (a good solid moneymaker) and High passengers, High passengers, High passengers! Get as many as possible, and buy your life support in bulk (you get a 10% discount that way). Regular crew (and Middle passengers) only cost Cr750 per week in T20, and make sure that at least some of the crew are filling two different crew positions (costs more per crewman, saves over the long haul). There are a number of tricks to use, but a smart and clever merchant should be able to come out on top most of the time.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
"High Passage: ...High passage costs Cr10,000 and provides food and lodging for 1 person for a distance of 1 jump. Double occupancy is allowed at a discounted rate of Cr16,000 (Cr8000 per passenger)."
"Middle Passage:...Middle passage costs Cr8,000 and provides food and lodging for one person for a distance of 1 jump. Double occupancy is allowed at a discounted rate of Cr13,000 (Cr6500 per passenger)."
"Low Passage:...Low passage costs Cr1,000 and includes a baggage allowance of 10 kilograms."
As you can see, while Low passage does not specifically state it, both Middle and High passage clearly state the cost is per jump, so the passage is from one world to the next one. If free trader 123 is starting at planet A, and travelling to planets B, C, and ending up at planet D, someone who books High passage at A and intends to disembark at D would pay Cr30,000 for their passage, while a Middle Passage from A to C would be Cr16,000. The listing is per jump, not per parsec, so a ship making J1's makes the same per passenger as one making J2's.
Life support costs are as follows, Cr1000 per week for High Passage and Crew Officers, Cr750 per week for Middle Passage and regular Crew, and Cr50 per week for Low Passage.
Cargo Rates are Cr1000 per ton for regular cargo, regardless of distance, Priority cargo is CR1000 per ton per parsec, but generally have a 14 day delivery date, Hazardous cargo is Cr10,000 per ton per jump, and Security cargo is CR5000 per ton per jump.
With these numbers, it seems to me that a free trader captain, with the proper planning and thought to his route, can make a profit easily enough to ensure continued ownership of his ship.
Stay away from low pop worlds (where there usually sin't much cargo anyway), try to get Hazardous, Priority, or Security (if your ship is armed) cargos first, then fill up the rest of the hold with whatever cargo is going to your next port of call, fill your low berths as much as possible (a good solid moneymaker) and High passengers, High passengers, High passengers! Get as many as possible, and buy your life support in bulk (you get a 10% discount that way). Regular crew (and Middle passengers) only cost Cr750 per week in T20, and make sure that at least some of the crew are filling two different crew positions (costs more per crewman, saves over the long haul). There are a number of tricks to use, but a smart and clever merchant should be able to come out on top most of the time.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
It has been noted in this discussion that Far Trader is very complicated. This same feeling was noted in a discussion over at JTAS as well. Jim MacLean one of the authors responded that for the average Traveller campain where trade is a background occupation, the rules are on page 19 and cover about 1/2 the page. Thats it, the rest of the book covers trade campains and crome. 
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
A free trader makes a profit at about a 75% load. All the Jump-1 ships do. Crank it up to a Far Trader and make a bank payment and a profit.
And I personally can't justify charging more to a passenger taking a Jump-1 ship 2 parsecs vs a Jump-2 ship going the same distance in a third of the time. Especially considering the regular cost for passage and by extension who the typical passenger would have to be, getting there slower is more expensive?
And I personally can't justify charging more to a passenger taking a Jump-1 ship 2 parsecs vs a Jump-2 ship going the same distance in a third of the time. Especially considering the regular cost for passage and by extension who the typical passenger would have to be, getting there slower is more expensive?
