Far Trader cargo/Freight manifest questions

[BetterThanLife]

Yes. Exactly. The ship has to be economically viable. Keeping away from the big stuff, the complicated stuff and the specialized stuff. Keeping down to the "standard" small, independent, trade ship. (The least common denominator) And the second easiest multiparsec jump capable ship for a party to purchase. (The Seeker being the easiest and the Scout not being purchased.) The ship under the per jump model doesn't make economic sense.

If I take your cargo and charge you Cr2000 per ton to go two parsecs I am saving you both time and money. I also actually can be economically viable. (I can see everyone saying but if it is only one jump then you aren't saving me money over the Cr1000 per ton per jump model.)

Here is your money savings. Without making multijumpships economically viable you are forced to ship on a jump one ship. Therefore to go two parsecs it takes you two jumps and Cr2000 per ton to get to market. It will also take you between two and three weeks to get there. (Possibly longer if no one is going from your intermediate destination to your final destination.) During the time between when your cargo is off loaded and loaded for its final leg you have to pay for wharehousing and for someone to watch over it and arrange for its next leg. And you also have to pay, though this is normally part of the cost of shipping, for transhipping your cargo. Any breakage during the cargo handling at the transship point is also your cost. Now find a ship going directly there, it gets there in one week, it doesn't have to be wharehoused, it doesn't have to be transhipped. Paying the same Cr2000 actually saves me money. Why should I have a problem paying the same freight costs? Further by paying Cr2000 per ton to get it two parsecs away also makes the Jump-2 ships financially viable and therefore encourages their manufacture and use. Which brings more markets to me for my goods, it also means my orders can be filled faster and with more, faster ships, I also get my orders faster. (Since orders are transmitted at the speed of ships.) Less lag time between when the customer wants the goods to when they get them. (Cuts the time in half.)

For the shrewd businessman that wants his company to grow and wants to expand his markets paying the same cost for a ship to get it there faster makes good business sense. Would you really expect to get to spend less to get it there? Sure once competetion was seriously thriving, but without the higher jump ships being economically viable then you won't get a price break.

As for bulk cargo carriers from big companies, etc. Show me how they make financial sense. I would love to see the stats on any jump-2 freighter that can make a starship payment on the per jump economic model. (And given the normal ranges of available cargo run at better than 75% capacity.)

I can't seem to find the right mix.

Originally posted by Hal:
Another way to look at the shipping costs for CT and anything based on it?

Two merchants each competing to sell their service of transportation. The J-1 Free trader needs to charge 1,000 credits per ton to be financially viable. Cost to ship a consignment of 10 dtons 3 parsecs via a J-1 ship will be:

3 x 1000 x 10 = 30,000 credits.

A Jump 3 ship has two choices. It can either charge the SAME rate as what the J-1 ship does and get it there faster (which is a plus for some shippers) or they can charge LESS than the J-1 ship but only enough that is economically viable for them to stay barely above water.

Why?

Because if one J2 ship exists with a monopoly on shipping, people will have to pay their price. When TWO or more competitors exist, they will try to steal each other's customers - and that entails a price war of sorts.

You can argue the point saying "Ok, the J3 ship can set prices that the others will adhere to - fixing the market IF there is enough work to go around. You'd be right too

When enough people WANT to get into the market of shipping because it is THAT profitable, then yes, they will do so. It is the GLUT of shipping firms and services that will drive the market prices down. Since Traveller's 3rd Imperium is supposed to be a 365,000 day old environment, it is safe to assume that there are a LOT of mature markets there where the prices have been driven down to the bare minimum. Shipping that has become ultra efficient (read that as HUGE bulk carriers) can charge even LESS and remain finacially afloat.

Odd, but that seems to be precisely the environment that FAR TRADER discusses

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

<snip>

If I take your cargo and charge you Cr2000 per ton to go two parsecs I am saving you both time and money. I also actually can be economically viable. (I can see everyone saying but if it is only one jump then you aren't saving me money over the Cr1000 per ton per jump model.)

Here is your money savings. Without making multijumpships economically viable you are forced to ship on a jump one ship. Therefore to go two parsecs it takes you two jumps and Cr2000 per ton to get to market. It will also take you between two and three weeks to get there. (Possibly longer if no one is going from your intermediate destination to your final destination.) During the time between when your cargo is off loaded and loaded for its final leg you have to pay for wharehousing and for someone to watch over it and arrange for its next leg. And you also have to pay, though this is normally part of the cost of shipping, for transhipping your cargo. Any breakage during the cargo handling at the transship point is also your cost. Now find a ship going directly there, it gets there in one week, it doesn't have to be wharehoused, it doesn't have to be transhipped. Paying the same Cr2000 actually saves me money. Why should I have a problem paying the same freight costs? Further by paying Cr2000 per ton to get it two parsecs away also makes the Jump-2 ships financially viable and therefore encourages their manufacture and use. Which brings more markets to me for my goods, it also means my orders can be filled faster and with more, faster ships, I also get my orders faster. (Since orders are transmitted at the speed of ships.) Less lag time between when the customer wants the goods to when they get them. (Cuts the time in half.)

<snip>

Yes!

I agree on all points. 1 week @ 2000Cr is cheaper and better than 3 weeks+ @ 2000Cr+Other Costs. In this case, the J-2 vessel is always better. (The main trouble for the J-2 vessel will be when it finds that the only lots available for shipping are to destinations 1 parsec away (or more than 2).)

I think we only need to look at the success of Federal Express and others to realize the importance of getting physical goods to a destination on time, and the premium that can be charged for doing so.

Federal Express does have competition, UPS and Airborne/DHL, especially. However, FedEx charges more, and is still in business. For one thing, UPS and Airborne/DHL have never matched FedEx's level of service, but they don't cost as much, either.

The OTU "put a ton on a ship and push it somewhere for 1 kCr per ton per jump" vanilla coverage of shipping througout space has always seemed a bit underdetailed to me.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Adventuring being what it is the ship won't stay ahead of its payments.

Adventuring being what it is, the ship shouldn't stay ahead of its payments. A ship's a small business, and running a small business is a full-time occupation, which means pretty much by definition you don't have the time for adventuring.

I'd figure a ship should break even by carrying a full load for max jump twice a month; profitable ships will usually jump more than twice a month (a typical bulk freighter will jump three times a month, and can probably pull 80% fill on all of them).

 

[Hal]

About the only way you will see a starship crew having an adventure is when something bad happens to one crew member and the rest have enough loyalty to rescue said poor sod, or the ship is actually profitable enough that a 2 week period over and above its normal idle 2 week maintenance period of inactivity is not enough to put a ship behind in its payments.

Looking at GURPS FAR TRADER as I have been lately, I've often wondered what happens when you have trade goods that need to be shipped to a world off the beaten path? What if no one will touch the shipment not because it is dangerous - but because the only way to make a profit on that run is to charge 10,000 credits per dton? Sad part is, that cargo might only be worth say, 3,000 credits to begin with. Say it was a Med unit that will bring the world's medical tech level up from a low TL 3 to say, TL 12? What if the shipper agrees to pay the 10,000 creds and then welshes with what amounts to a bad check?

 

[BetterThanLife]

With a 28 day month, 6-8 days per jump, Transit time to and from jump point, unload, locate cargo and passengers, routine maintance, load up, refuel, (refine) how do you jump 3 times a month?
You would need less than a 2 day turn around. The guys at the port don't know when you will be there before you get there. they may have a list of probable arriving ships and a rough estimate of when you will arrive, based on a schedule that a ship was carrying that left the day before you did? (ship you passed because your jump took 6 days and his 8?) You can't do all that in the time alloted. Especially if you have to do "frontier fueling."

In most cases a Starport doesn't know what is going to actually arrive before it arrives in system. God forbid all the loading Berths are full and you get stacked up. Without FTL communications a schedule that tight is impossible.

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Adventuring being what it is the ship won't stay ahead of its payments.

Adventuring being what it is, the ship shouldn't stay ahead of its payments. A ship's a small business, and running a small business is a full-time occupation, which means pretty much by definition you don't have the time for adventuring.

I'd figure a ship should break even by carrying a full load for max jump twice a month; profitable ships will usually jump more than twice a month (a typical bulk freighter will jump three times a month, and can probably pull 80% fill on all of them). </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Hal:
About the only way you will see a starship crew having an adventure is when something bad happens to one crew member and the rest have enough loyalty to rescue said poor sod, or the ship is actually profitable enough that a 2 week period over and above its normal idle 2 week maintenance period of inactivity is not enough to put a ship behind in its payments.

Looking at GURPS FAR TRADER as I have been lately, I've often wondered what happens when you have trade goods that need to be shipped to a world off the beaten path? What if no one will touch the shipment not because it is dangerous - but because the only way to make a profit on that run is to charge 10,000 credits per dton? Sad part is, that cargo might only be worth say, 3,000 credits to begin with. Say it was a Med unit that will bring the world's medical tech level up from a low TL 3 to say, TL 12? What if the shipper agrees to pay the 10,000 creds and then welshes with what amounts to a bad check?

 

[BetterThanLife]

I hate it when that happens.

My point exactly. The ship has to be inherrently profitable to make it possible for a party of adventures to cruise about and actually adventure. Yes problems with the ship and putting them behind a payment make good adventure hooks but when the ship is getting repossesed every time you turn around because you can't break even in the first place that doesn't make for a good gaming session.

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
About the only way you will see a starship crew having an adventure is when something bad happens to one crew member and the rest have enough loyalty to rescue said poor sod, or the ship is actually profitable enough that a 2 week period over and above its normal idle 2 week maintenance period of inactivity is not enough to put a ship behind in its payments.

Looking at GURPS FAR TRADER as I have been lately, I've often wondered what happens when you have trade goods that need to be shipped to a world off the beaten path? What if no one will touch the shipment not because it is dangerous - but because the only way to make a profit on that run is to charge 10,000 credits per dton? Sad part is, that cargo might only be worth say, 3,000 credits to begin with. Say it was a Med unit that will bring the world's medical tech level up from a low TL 3 to say, TL 12? What if the shipper agrees to pay the 10,000 creds and then welshes with what amounts to a bad check?

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
With a 28 day month, 6-8 days per jump, Transit time to and from jump point, unload, locate cargo and passengers, routine maintance, load up, refuel, (refine) how do you jump 3 times a month?

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Simple: you have a cargo factor who finds cargo and passengers for you before you arrive. For everything else, you have 224 hours per jump, jump takes 168, transit takes 6 each way, so that leaves 44 hours for loading and unloading, which is plenty. If you're unlucky you could wind up as much as 17 hours behind, in which case you can either let the schedule slip a bit and figure you'll make it up later, or try to load/unload in 24 hours.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I hate it when that happens.

My point exactly. The ship has to be inherrently profitable to make it possible for a party of adventures to cruise about and actually adventure.

No it doesn't. Adventuring works as long as on average you'd make as much of a profit from the adventure as you'd make from operating as a merchant for the same period.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Anthony:

Simple: you have a cargo factor who finds cargo and passengers for you before you arrive. For everything else, you have 224 hours per jump, jump takes 168, transit takes 6 each way, so that leaves 44 hours for loading and unloading, which is plenty. If you're unlucky you could wind up as much as 17 hours behind, in which case you can either let the schedule slip a bit and figure you'll make it up later, or try to load/unload in 24 hours.

That describes a Subsidized Merchant operation to a T but not the more common PC Free-Trader operation. There you often decide which will be your next port of call after you arrive and have a look at the speculative cargoes available. Then it takes about a week to arrange delivery and collect passengers, unless you pay a premium for expediting the delivery and clearances.

Not to poke holes in the theory of 3 jumps per month, just to lable it more accurately. I personally think a Subbie offers great RP adventure possibilities. Sure you're stuck on a set route of 2-12 systems, but that shouldn't limit you too much. And of course you might get mobilized for a small war action or tasked in a Q-ship assignment, even if just used as bait

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by far-trader:
That describes a Subsidized Merchant operation to a T but not the more common PC Free-Trader operation.

Actually, it describes anyone with a regular route; many such routes aren't subsidized. The tramp trader option is really dependent on finding people who are willing to pay well above market rates so they can get something delivered _now_.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
That describes a Subsidized Merchant operation to a T but not the more common PC Free-Trader operation.

Actually, it describes anyone with a regular route; many such routes aren't subsidized. The tramp trader option is really dependent on finding people who are willing to pay well above market rates so they can get something delivered _now_. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I suppose I did make it sound too exclusive. I didn't mean it only described a Subsidized Merchant route, but that is the most common PC level reference. Not too many Free-Trader operations I've seen had anything close to a route. Most didn't even plan ahead far enough to know where to get the annual maintenance done.

"What do you mean you can't start my maintenance for 8 weeks!"

"We're booked solid, you should have made an appointment at least 6 months ago."

8 weeks of operating with a dicey ship later...

"Looks like you'll have to come back in 3 months, the IN just tasked all yards for some critical refits."

finally after nearly half a year the ship gets in for it's long overdue maintenance and two weeks later the Captain and crew return from vacation...

"Why is my ship still in pieces!"

"Well we got into the teardown and due to the missed maintenance your flarg ring was shot. We had to order one from the manufacturer. It should be here in about 6 weeks."

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by far-trader:


<snip>

"What do you mean you can't start my maintenance for 8 weeks!"

"We're booked solid, you should have made an appointment at least 6 months ago."

8 weeks of operating with a dicey ship later...

"Looks like you'll have to come back in 3 months, the IN just tasked all yards for some critical refits."

finally after nearly half a year the ship gets in for it's long overdue maintenance and two weeks later the Captain and crew return from vacation...

"Why is my ship still in pieces!"

"Well we got into the teardown and due to the missed maintenance your flarg ring was shot. We had to order one from the manufacturer. It should be here in about 6 weeks."

Why that, sir, is pure evil.


Except that, will all the A and B starports around, can they really all be booked? There are A starports in the Spinward Marches over low (0 or 1) Pop worlds. These would not be trade points, traffic should be low there.

 

[FrancoisUldry]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
A free trader makes a profit at about a 75% load. All the Jump-1 ships do. Crank it up to a Far Trader and make a bank payment and a profit.

I actually made a partial evaluation and with a 400-tons ship (jump 1 drive), no need to be at full capacity all the time to make a LITTLE profit. (Like 5 to 10k).

These 5 to 10k will likely be used to cover the costs I forgot in my calc.

Francois

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Why that, sir, is pure evil.

Why thank you, I do try

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Except that, will all the A and B starports around, can they really all be booked? There are A starports in the Spinward Marches over low (0 or 1) Pop worlds. These would not be trade points, traffic should be low there.

I had a system hashed together relating shipyard and docking capacity to starport, population and world traffic type (primary, secondary and tertiary). So those low pop tertiary ports could handle a small amount of docking, service and building, generally in relation to the low traffic they get, and it took longer. While the higher pop primary ports handle a lot more and faster.

As for booking ahead it was a 2d6 roll, months for primary systems, weeks for secondary systems, and days for tertiary systems. So yes if you found an out of the way port of sufficient TL and capacity you wouldn't need to wait long. Pirates love those systems

Oops, did I say Pirates, no, no Pirates here

 

[BetterThanLife]

Yes. I agree. The problem is that under the per jump rules the ship won't break even, ever. So making the same adventuring you still lose the ship. The ship has to be basically profitable to make it worth having. Or your party has to have lots of extra cash to pay for the ship outright and then pay upkeep as it operates. Welcome to Munchkin land.

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
I hate it when that happens.

My point exactly. The ship has to be inherrently profitable to make it possible for a party of adventures to cruise about and actually adventure.

No it doesn't. Adventuring works as long as on average you'd make as much of a profit from the adventure as you'd make from operating as a merchant for the same period. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Yes. I agree. The problem is that under the per jump rules the ship won't break even, ever.

Oh, I misunderstood your point. Yeah, if a regular merchant can't survive with a far trader, neither can adventurers most likely.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Works great if you can follow a schedule. Which the destination doesn't have.

Unless you are running a regular route and even then without current information as to your status that is too close a schedule to try to run. Remember there is no information flow faster than the speed of a starship. Which means nobody really knows when you will arrive until you break out into normal space. You still have to maintain your ship as well. Remember you aren't the only ship in the pattern either. Take off and landing times will be controled by the Space Traffic Controllers. Port Authority will also have a say in how fast you can turn around. Customs, Health and Immigration, Security Patrols, Safety Inspections all take time.

A Maneuver 1 ship is going to take 6.5 hours to get in from 100 diameters and another 6.5 hours to get back out to 100 diameters. (Size 6 world) (Source is MegaTraveller Encyclopedia.) Book 2 has it at only 5 hours each way. How good and hard working are your Longshoreman? Your schedule slips a little, Ooops, how do you tell your next destination? Lets see how long does it take to refuel? Is there a line at the pump? (Gas giant refueling takes several hours and several more hours to refine it.)and the refueling operations of a High Lightning Cruiser takes 3-7 days.) How much time does Monthly routine maintenance take? Without unloading and reloading, just skimming the gas giant performing routine checks and jumping is going to run you over 12 hours.

One of the reasons for the one week on planet one week in jump is because nobody knows when you are arriving. It also gives you time to do your maintenance and checks, load and unload, deal with customs, patrols etc. You might be able to steal a day here and there but you aren't going to be able to seriously cut the time. You certainly aren't going to be able to consistently get 3 jumps a month. What happens to the careful schedule if a ship goes missing? (Piracy, the ship misjumps, skips, or gets seriously delayed or confiscated when the anti-smuggling search finds contraband in the hold, etc.) Since you can't warn the destination or the subsequent destinations that there is a problem this causes more and escalating problems. Especially the farther from the original destination you are.

It is an interesting concept. Obviously Players aren't going to be involved in this type of operation anyway, there isn't time to adventure, all your time is in Jump space.

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
With a 28 day month, 6-8 days per jump, Transit time to and from jump point, unload, locate cargo and passengers, routine maintance, load up, refuel, (refine) how do you jump 3 times a month?

</font>[/QUOTE]Simple: you have a cargo factor who finds cargo and passengers for you before you arrive. For everything else, you have 224 hours per jump, jump takes 168, transit takes 6 each way, so that leaves 44 hours for loading and unloading, which is plenty. If you're unlucky you could wind up as much as 17 hours behind, in which case you can either let the schedule slip a bit and figure you'll make it up later, or try to load/unload in 24 hours. [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Aren't Physics and Economics a bitch.

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Yes. I agree. The problem is that under the per jump rules the ship won't break even, ever.

Oh, I misunderstood your point. Yeah, if a regular merchant can't survive with a far trader, neither can adventurers most likely. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[RainOfSteel]

Having a Trading Factor on every world you might visit implies a pretty considerable trading empire. Independents will not have this luxury.

The rules for hiring brokers are the rules for hiring "Trading Factors".

Independents (most PC operations) must make contact with the local brokers/factors, discover what the local cargo situation is, etc. I'd say, CT, to roll 1d6-2 (plus I'd allow the PCs to roll Admin or Liasion vs. a difficult target to subtract 1 more), with 2 as a minimum (unless the skill check mentioned was successful, in which case 1 is the minimum), to show the number of days necessary to locate, negotiate to either purchase cargo or receive freight shipping assignments, transfer money, get the goods delivered to the starport, and then loaded.

While it's theoretically possible to get all this done in a day for certain every time, it would require a set of "tiger team" services all loaded up and ready to go at the Starport, managed by a specialist company, and they would charge a commission at least as high as a good broker. They'd have to charge that high, by acting as a middleman between the trader and the original consignor, they assume liability in the eyes of the consignor because they've picked the trader to do the job; the consignor will not go the trader to recoup loss, but rather to the middleman, and the middleman will have to rely on insurance (hidden by the flat cost of the their commission); not to mention their desire to make money.

EDIT>
I forgot to mention, that during all that, the trader must also handle the offloading of freight and the sale of any current cargo.