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Far Trader Hermitage

So the 1/10 sized fusion generator would only cover the gravitics. What else? Could a fusion plant twice as big cover all that's needed?



You think 'wargame' is derogatory? I don't. I can enjoy a good wargame. I just don't think the wargames aspects of the RPG are realistic. So taking it over me isn't the point. The point is that you're taking it over realism.


Hans
The way you tend to use it, it certainly comes across that way.

They rules of the game *DEFINE* the universe of the game. THERE IS NO UNDERLYING SHARED REALITY.

The quest for realism lead me to bad games and worse play. The CT rules provide a stable, and while incredibly inefficient, easily worked set of numbers for ships.

To use the LS requirements in MT, you'd need at least three of those 1/10 ton reactors, reactors which don't exist in MT. (In fact I don't know where you pulled them from, nor do I really care.)

In CT:
you need at least PP1. Using any TL HG PP2, you step it back to PP1, and you get 1Td/Mo/100TdOfShip - 2 Td/Mo. You don't want to use Bk2 PP for this... it burns 10Td/mo.

In MT:
A 1.4KL TL15 reactor in MT burns 12.6L/hour, produces 6MW (instead of the 252MW produced by a 14KL Cell, burning 126L/H). In order to power the standard FT gravitics and LS (since both are rated for full 200Td), you need 151.2 MW... a 10KL plant burns 90, and only gets 120MW... due to the scale efficiency rules.

T4:
plants are less power: 1.4kl TL 15 Fusion+ is 9.8x1.33*1.4=18 MW, burning 2L/year of heavy water; the 14KL version is 9.8x1.46*14=200.3MW; Heck, the 4KL (breakpoint for scale efficiency) Fusion+ is 57MW, burns 6L a year. This isn't the cell size, tho... scale efficiency climbs further with larger plants. A 40KL cell size is 9.8*1.61*40=631.12MW, burning 60L/year.
LS: 42MW
AG: 2.94MW

T20:
Plants are same as HG.

MGT:
The minimum 4Td power plant run at minimum should be adequate; it burns 4Td/mo.

They have to be different universes - they don't even come close to modeling the same kinds of PP. :)
 
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The way you tend to use it, it certainly comes across that way.

It was meant to point out why some rules are unrealistic and ought not to be taken as gospel for any purpose over and above the one they were made for.

As an illustration, I believe there's a rule prohibiting running two different power plants simultaneously in a ship, right? You can have a second one as a beck-up, but you can only run one at a time. Thus precluding having one power plant that runs the computer and life support, another one that is turned on when the maneuver drive is to be used, and a third that is turned on when the weapons are needed. That one is pure wargame, and its purpose is to simplify game play. And that's fine as long as you want to keep things simple. But it's not realistic. Any ship captain would want to keep fuel consumption as low as possible and would not keep his power plant turned up full blast 24/7. So if someone wanted to go into greater detail on that subject and was willing to expend the extra time on it, he should be allowed to do it and not be told that the ship is, in fact, using its power plant full blast at all times because that's what the rules says.

Yes, that's what the rules says, but the rules are deliberately simplifying a complex situation for the sake of playability. Or in other words, the rules are wrong. Which is fine as long as you don't delued yourself into believing the rules, all the rules, and nothing but the rules.

This is, in fact, one of the fundamental differences between a roleplaying game and wargames and boardgames: that the rules are not the sum total of reality.

They rules of the game *DEFINE* the universe of the game.

No, they don't. You're wrong about that, and that's proved every time a supplement is published that provide additional rules, since that shows that the previous rules were incomplete.

Not that any proof should be necessary. It's so blatantly obvious. It follows logically from the fact that there's a referee to provide rulings for everything the printed rules doesn't cover. If the printed rules defined the universe, there would be no need and no room for the referee. It would be like it is in Monopoly and Diplomacy, the rules are the rules. But in role-playing games the rules are the guidelines, no more.

THERE IS NO UNDERLYING SHARED REALITY.

That's your opinion, and it's just as good as my opinion. I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by telling me that again, though. After all, you know that I disagree and you're not provideng any new arguments to make me change my mind.

I know I probably can't change your mind either (though I'm puzzled as to why you ever mix and match rules sets; if you were truly consistent on this point you'd only ever use one set of rules for any one argument).

But then, I'm not trying to convince YOU. I'm trying to convince others who may read these discussions.

So I'l keep sticking to my opinion, thank you very much.

THERE IS TOO AN UNDERLYING SHARED REALITY, NYAH, NYAH!.

The quest for realism lead me to bad games and worse play.

It may lead you there. It leads me to greater verisimilitude and enhanced gaming experience.

The CT rules provide a stable, and while incredibly inefficient, easily worked set of numbers for ships.

They are easily worked. That's their virtue, and if you're satisfied with that, that's fine.

If you're interested in realism, though, not so much.

To use the LS requirements in MT, you'd need at least three of those 1/10 ton reactors, reactors which don't exist in MT. (In fact I don't know where you pulled them from, nor do I really care.)

They're from TD (one of their equipment sheets, if you remember those) and they are, indeed, MT.


In CT:
you need at least PP1. Using any TL HG PP2, you step it back to PP1, and you get 1Td/Mo/100TdOfShip - 2 Td/Mo. You don't want to use Bk2 PP for this... it burns 10Td/mo.
Why? Yes, I know the rules says so, but what's the rationale? Since you can have a PP1 for a 100T ship, 1T power plants are possible. Why can't you have a separate 1T power plant in a 200T ship? That would be a PP½.
 
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I would also think they would go vegetarian. It cheaper in both space and energy. They would make an interesting encounter for K'Kree hmmm or should that be mmmm. I would also go for a bigger ship maybe the 300tons.

You pick smaller faster breeding animals to bring aboard: Small pigs, chickens, rabbits, maybe sheep. Forego larger animals such as a cow. Seafairers in the age of sail did that with those animals aboard ship for just that purpose. With chickens you get the bonus of eggs too.
Tanks breeding fish would be another possibility. This is a fairly compact operation and is relatively self contained. Having the extra water aboard would be a bonus.

Going vegitarian would be far more difficult to get the proteins and vitamins you need.

You also would need a much larger power plant to handle the increased use of power from lighting the agriculture spaces along with their needing better ventilation systems etc.
 
It was meant to point out why some rules are unrealistic and ought not to be taken as gospel for any purpose over and above the one they were made for.
Said purpose, to wit HG, was multiple, including use as the design system for the RPG, NOT PURELY a wargame.

But you seem stuck on some non-extant hypothetical unified reality behind the various games. I don't play "OTU" - I play Mega or MT or CT or T20 - the rules define the reality. The reality for someone running MT is different than one running

And every supplement with rules changes does change the game universe. But for some reason you can't wrap your brain around that. You're stuck on some neo-Platonic "OTU"... one that's even less realistic than any of the games, because you TRY to reconcile it back from irreconcilable sources.


Why? Yes, I know the rules says so, but what's the rationale? Since you can have a PP1 for a 100T ship, 1T power plants are possible. Why can't you have a separate 1T power plant in a 200T ship? That would be a PP½.
You can - but note that a CT HG 1T power plant is roughly 250MW*, and that the design system says minimum to operate the ship is PP1, not PP0.5.

As for that portable fusion system being in MT, prove it. Book and page, please. It's certainly NOT in MT as sold by Marc Miller, and not doable under those rules. The design system in MT is pretty straightforward - and the scaling rules are clear. You can't build a 100MW 1.4KL TL15 PP in MT by the rules as written.

It's perfectly reasonable in T4... tho the math is off for T4 by a bit.

TNE and T4 work differently from the rest of the OTU defining games (Which excludes GURPS - it's an ATU from the start) - but to be blunt, one's better off for these purposes picking and using a single system. They have different drive and power technologies. They have different, grossly so, approaches to fuel, and are, in the end, even LESS realistic despite taking 2x the work or more to use.

* Striker is, according to MWM, part of CT. Which said, CT is a cluster of closely related game universes sharing a cluster of closely related rulesets...
 
Said purpose, to wit HG, was multiple, including use as the design system for the RPG, NOT PURELY a wargame.

It still represents a simplification of "reality". Tell me, in the universe of TTB, how many different automatic pistols are manufactured? If the rules define the universe, that would be one type, from one end of the universe to the other. Reality? Or simplification?

(Please don't ignore this question).

But you seem stuck on some non-extant hypothetical unified reality behind the various games.

'Stuck on' seems a derogatory way to express it, but it's true that I champion the notion that the various Traveller versions all refer to one single reality, namely the OTU. And it's not like I don't have evidence to support that notion, but since we've been over all that before I see no reason to repeat it.

However, the notion that I'm propounding here is a slightly different one, namely that the rules in Book 1-3 refer to the same universe that the rules in Book 4 refers to and Book 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and the alien modules all refer to the same universe. And that no matter how many rule books are published, the rules do not define all the universe. For which I offer the existence of a referee as proof. If those rules did define the universe, there would be no need and no room for a referee. I said as much in my previous post, but evidently you didn't grasp what I was saying.

I don't play "OTU" - I play Mega or MT or CT or T20 - the rules define the reality. The reality for someone running MT is different than one running.

I do play "OTU". What's your point?

And every supplement with rules changes does change the game universe. But for some reason you can't wrap your brain around that.

Oh, I have no problem "wrapping my brain around it" as you so courteously put it. I just disagree with it. Because, and let me know if you've wrapped your head around this by now so I can cease repeating it, if the rules defined the universe there would be no need and no room for a referee.

You're stuck on some neo-Platonic "OTU"... one that's even less realistic than any of the games, because you TRY to reconcile it back from irreconcilable sources.

"Stuck" is not the correct word. I stick to the notion because it is so much more useful to be able to draw on ALL the material produced in the past 30 years and more instead of being restricted to any one of the subsets defined by a signle version.

You can - but note that a CT HG 1T power plant is roughly 250MW*, and that the design system says minimum to operate the ship is PP1, not PP0.5.

No, it doesn't. The design system (or is it the ship operating rules?) says the minimum to operate the ship is the full power plant. All fuel is spent in one month, with no possible way to use less. The rule that you can throttle down to level 1 is IIRC an obscure one from TCS. Oh, and now I think about it, didn't TCS get de-canonized?

As for that portable fusion system being in MT, prove it. Book and page, please. It's certainly NOT in MT as sold by Marc Miller, and not doable under those rules. The design system in MT is pretty straightforward - and the scaling rules are clear. You can't build a 100MW 1.4KL TL15 PP in MT by the rules as written.
Looks like the rules as written do not define the universe completely, then. :devil:

As I said, it's from an issue of Travellers' Digest. 15 years ago I photocopied it and stuck it into a folder with all the other equipment descriptions I could find. There's no page number, but I'm looking at the photocopy right now. Please do me the courtesy of believing that I'm not making it up.


Hans
 
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So the 1/10 sized fusion generator would only cover the gravitics.

Oops. I made a mistake there. The portable fusion plant generate 100 kw (as I also wrote in my first post). If the gravitics require 100-odd Mw, one of those babies are not going to help a whole lot. Guess our hermit may have to make do without gravity.


Hans
 
Hans' post just above about artificial gravity being a big power draw twigged a suggestion in my brain.

Rather than an old converted Far-Trader why not a classic Lab Ship? More room, better suited to a hermitage conversion imo, a little bigger, and hey, free spin gravity!
 
Hans' post just above about artificial gravity being a big power draw twigged a suggestion in my brain.

Rather than an old converted Far-Trader why not a classic Lab Ship? More room, better suited to a hermitage conversion imo, a little bigger, and hey, free spin gravity!

Availability... that's why. Old traders (admittedly, probably barely running) can be gotten readily. Lab ships are probably far fewer.

For purpose built, The lab ship's superior as a hermitage.

Oh, and the T4 long term LS:
100, 200, 500, or 1500 KL per person... with a "minimum capacity" of 25, 30, 40, or 75 persons, for algal paste, vegan/aquaculture, some land meats, respectively, big land meat (Pigs in space joke in text). Prices not listed on the tables.

That would be roughly 8Td, 15Td, 36Td, and 107Td each grade, above and beyond the stateroom. So, an aquaculture and plants based one like I'd been thinking, including the stateroom, runs 19Td per person... but when you add the requisite galley space, and the actual LS, and food storage space and... and... God I hate T4's excess niggling details.
 
Say what? When did that happen?

Some point prior to T20 development. More correctly, Marc informed Hunter that TCS economy numbers were not canonical for the OTU, not that TCS was decanonized entirely, and hunter then avoided using them.

Hans' wording implies more thoroughly decanonized, which isn't true. The ship building extensions and ship op rules changes are canonical as far as I've seen. If nothing else, they're ported forward into T20...
 
Some point prior to T20 development. More correctly, Marc informed Hunter that TCS economy numbers were not canonical for the OTU, not that TCS was decanonized entirely, and hunter then avoided using them.

Hans' wording implies more thoroughly decanonized, which isn't true.

Noted.


Hans
 
Some point prior to T20 development. More correctly, Marc informed Hunter that TCS economy numbers were not canonical for the OTU, not that TCS was decanonized entirely, and hunter then avoided using them.

Hans' wording implies more thoroughly decanonized, which isn't true. The ship building extensions and ship op rules changes are canonical as far as I've seen. If nothing else, they're ported forward into T20...

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks!
 
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