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Fighters/PT Boats in the Traveller Universe

HG has no sensor rules, but as soon as you move to BL or BR with sensor rules, weapon ranges...
So I am actually discussing Traveller.
But then nothing if that is factual.

Here is a TNE fighter with nearly all the sensors of a battleship and a weapon that can easily penetrate heavy armour:
Skärmavbild 2024-07-10 kl. 12.05.png
It's a five minute job, so it is not even remotely optimised or perhaps even usable...

Note sensors of A16 P6(folding) J16, nearly the same as:
Skärmavbild 2024-07-10 kl. 11.28.png

As the fighter has Size 0 against the battleship's Size -4, the fighter is far more difficult to detect.

The fighter can see and shoot just as far as the battleship, but is more difficult to detect and to hit.

Its 1.5 GJ laser can penetrate up to AV18 (FF&S 3000) at 80 hexes, against the best battleship armour of AV16 (FF&S 2000).
 
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I think the "Aircraft" vs "Battleship" paradigm of fighters, while a staple TROPE of the genre and even Traveller canon, is fundamentally flawed given the actual mechanics of most versions of Traveller rules mechanics. By and large, there is no "Ship-killer" weapon that fits in a small, agile craft. Traveller, [in my very humble opinion on such a subjective issue], has more of an "Monitor" Era feel to the combat. Armor has briefly gained the upper hand on weapons except for the absolute largest and most modern guns.

Where I see opportunity for innovation in the "Fighter" is two-fold.

ONE: Stop trying to create a WW2 aircraft and start creating a PT Boat variant. Think hot-shot young Yachtsman with the most high-performance one man craft that can be created. While slightly RULES VERSION dependent ... one man can typically control a ship between 100 and 199 dTons. So how fast and how big a weapon can you pack in say, 199 dTons of hull? You now have what in the age of sail might have been called a "Corvette".

TWO: The goal of a "Corvette" is not to attack "ships of the line". The function of a Corvette is COMMERCE RAIDING and disrupting supply lines and finishing off crippled ships. They also force the ENEMY FLEET to divert larger ship resources to protect assets and hunt them down ... ships that are not available for the critical "Line of Battle". Any time a single pilot and a 100 dTon ship can keep a 1000 dT or 10,000 dT Enemy Warship out of a battle, is a good day for the fleet.

With a little luck, a small pack of 100 dT PT Boats operating with a 10,000 dTon command warship could lead an enemy PT Boat Hunter into an unpleasant ambush. Now the enemy needs to redeploy DREADNAUGHTS to hunt for the command ship hunting its 1000 dTon commerce protectors.

"Fighters" are a Strategic asset, not a tactical asset.

Just my 2 cents.
 
We know how it works now and we have FF&S and T% to fill in the fantasy tech.

Excuse me, what do you mean with T%

And your analogies don't work, We know how the real world works and we know what Traveller postulates.

And, of course, those people I said didn't know how world worked...

I may have more knowledge in things discovered latter, but I'm not an expert in Space Combat. I don't know about you (well, in Traveller Space Combat, more than myself, I must concede), but they were the experts of their times, and their opinions were held as "the truth" by then...

And, BTW, if we try to project current knowledge, I guess we'll agree autonomous drones to be an important thing in Space Combat, and Traveller rules for them are scarce (something I forgot to mention in the "unknowns" taht could influence BCS). As per CT/MT, I guess what was the "world knowledge" (mostly about computers) when they were written has little to do with current one...

BR, BL and FF&S are some of the best supplements for Traveller ever made. If you like that sort of thing.

Then I'll try to have a look on them, if I can (though I'm not sure if I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks)

You can house rule it to do anything you want, but if we are constrained by the rules as written and the settings as written then we have to be consistent.

Yes, when playing Traveller we're constrained by its rules and setting, but there are many of those (in both cases), and all too often cotradictory ones....
 
Thinking about it slightly more, I get this:
Skärmavbild 2024-07-10 kl. 14.03.png

Sensors, A16, P6(fold), J16 (except passive)
Will reliably hit battleships at ~30 hexes, but needs an outstanding success (~21%) to do damage.
Battleships will rarely (~10%?) hit fighters at that range.

Size 0 8G
TL-15 FC:-6
A16 P6f J16
L(x1-2)10:3-3-3-3
AV:3 MS:0 SC:0 D:0
 
Thinking about it slightly more, I get this:
View attachment 4856

Sensors, A16, P6(fold), J16 (except passive)
Will reliably hit battleships at ~30 hexes, but needs an outstanding success (~21%) to do damage.
Battleships will rarely (~10%?) hit fighters at that range.

Size 0 8G
TL-15 FC:-6
A16 P6f J16
L(x1-2)10:3-3-3-3
AV:3 MS:0 SC:0 D:0
So build bigger sensors for the BB. And while you are at it build bigger lasers for the BB - something TNE carefully avoided looking into for very good reason.
I may have to look at the T4 sensor rules again, I think they did a better job.
edit
a typical fighter is A5 P2 J5, a warship is A16 P8 J16
 
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BR, BL and FF&S are some of the best supplements for Traveller ever made. If you like that sort of thing.
In CT, they were making a Sci Fi game and just Making Stuff Up. Thankfully, it came out before Star Wars, we don't know how much of a fundamental impact that would have had on a new Sci Fi game of the age. Instead, it was a but more "shotguns in space" than laser swords and snub fighters.

During its lifespan, Chadwick was able to come up with an armor model (as in how armor reacts to damage), and used that for updating the combat system through AHL and Striker.

HG was GDWs stab at simplifying space combat, understanding the cruel reality space combat is lethal and "easy". The lack of terrain, no LOS, the natural lengths of what a turn must be in a "space is big" environment, the line 'em up Napoleonic style makes sense, as a game. Actual maneuver, in the large, probably didn't alter the outcomes all that much.

In MegaTraveller, they continued on with the building style systems, but really did not have a solid underlying physical model foundation that they were basing it on. MT was a bit of a mess in all sorts of ways.

Coming back to TNE, Chadwick was able to dig in, and come up with not just a refined armor model, but also all of the power models. Fundamentally, "what happens when X Mj hits Y armor", and then extrapolate from there. Add in his power models (different ways to create Mj), and, finally, a sensor model, the rest flowed from that.

After doing the physics of it, they learned that Lasers pretty much Don't Work at space ranges, so they had to come up with something to make them viable for flavor purposes (gravitic focusing). Once that was done, you still have a "realistic" laser, its just artificially small in size to make it playable.

TNE used Range Band combat to simplify combat because with typically 2 ships, all that mostly matters is the range, and they just need a model to simulate that properly. You could step up to simple Mayday style vector system and move on from the range band if you add another ship.

But BL came along, and attacked the whole space combat problem in detail. Given the Truths documented in FF&S, this is the physical world they're modeling, here's the math behind the models, etc. Given that, what is ship combat like? Clearly the TNE rules they published were a subset of what became BL.

The key here is, again, they started with a model, and then applied it to a combat situation. They didn't start with combat, they didn't start with a "space view" per se (obviously somewhat, as noted by the laser compromise). They started with a model and the chips lay where they lay.

Once they decided how lasers work, notably how they penetrate, this more than warranted the detailed hit location model. BL is "death by knitting needles". Fierce, focused, piercing lasers burning long, small holes into your ship. Once you have these needles poking in, you need to know what they're poking. Especially for a RPG supplement, it's good to know when the laser burns its way into the engineering compartment and fries Ted to a burnt crisp. "If only he was sitting, two chairs over..."

They notably, as a design decision, simply side stepped kinetic energy on a large scale. i.e. large, multi-ton missiles slamming into ships traveling at net 100's of km/s. They consciously skipped that because the game isn't fun. Too much energy too little time, and it also makes the actual "last mile" problem particularly difficult. A fraction of a fraction of a second distinguishes between a near miss and an exploding Sun. "Well stick with lasers".

This is why we have bomb pumped missile warheads. Skips that whole kinetic contact problem. Also helps deal with "light speed weapons up close rarely miss" problem. We'll blow the missiles 1000's of kms away, to give it all a bit of a fudge factor.

Battle Rider scaled it up. It simplified the level of detail. It's a game of detection and maneuver. It focuses on crits because that's what disables large ships, death by a thousand knitting needles doesn't really do much until you hit something Important. So, we'll skip all of that little stuff and focus on the Big Hit.

But, understand, the underlying model of BL and BR are fundamentally the same. The penetration model they use for a Gauss Rifle blasting through your body armor and into your liver is the same as the laser burning through battleship armor into the Maneuver drive. The scales and materials are simply different. Mj vs Armor.

We don't know what the future will bring, obviously most of the TNE techs are the stuff we have today graphed out into the future with a lot of speculation.

But the fundamentals are sound, IMHO. I don't think we'll see gravitic focusing any time soon, this kind of puts a big damper on using lasers at space ranges. Space combat may well be very kinetic, especially early on. Up close and explosive, where armor doesn't really matter because the net energies are so high. We still don't have anything like HEPlaR. But curious enough, Chadwick later said that he thinks he underestimated the efficiency of HEPlaR, he feels that even more capable drives may be possible.

But, until then. It's lasers in space.

I REALLY need to play with BR to see how dynamic the sensor game is. I have no feel for it.
 
Not if you build a bigger sensor and put more energy into it, the rules are almost there for scaling them up in T4. The radar sets carried by modern warships and AWACS aircraft are considerably larger than what goes into an F35.

The sensors are minimum hull size 100t, not sure where the smallcraft/fighter sensors come from design wise but they appear to be at least half the performance of ship sensors.
 
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Not if you build a bigger sensor and put more energy into it, the rules are almost there for scaling them up in T4.
Yes, sensor sensitivity scales and target signature scales.
Battleships will see each other at much larger distances than fighters will see each other, but the difference is much smaller between battleships and fighters.
Roughly, sensitivity increases by +0.5 for each ten times larger sensor and signature increases +0.5 for each ten times larger craft. Basically it's a wash between battleships and fighters.

The radar sets carried by modern warships and AWACS aircraft are considerably larger than what goes into an F35.
Agreed, and the radar cross-section and IR signature of the AWACS is also much higher.

The sensors are minimum hull size 100t, not sure where the smallcraft/fighter sensors come from design wise but they appear to be at least half the performance of ship sensors.
?
There is only one set of sensors in either TNE or T4 FF&S.
 
Ok, in Book2 a flight of fighters is scary, no matter what.

Book5, while fighters look weak, individually. The Fuzzy-Wuzzy principle applies here. Consider even 50 heavy fighters as per Supplement 9 have a good chance of scrubbing off significant numbers of your armaments and fuel. Remember that is 50 rolls to hit, +penetration (Hint for beam armed craft, how many batteries of sand do you have?)

Now, realistically for book5, I would write Fighters/Gunboats up as smallish Battleriders, in that Book5 default scale is 1000 tons rather than the 100 tons of Book2.
 
Book5, while fighters look weak, individually. The Fuzzy-Wuzzy principle applies here. Consider even 50 heavy fighters as per Supplement 9 have a good chance of scrubbing off significant numbers of your armaments and fuel. Remember that is 50 rolls to hit, +penetration (Hint for beam armed craft, how many batteries of sand do you have?)
S9 heavy fighter:
Skärmavbild 2024-07-11 kl. 11.44.png
S9 lousy small ship:
Skärmavbild 2024-07-11 kl. 11.42.png

The fighter shoots a laser at the ship:
To Hit: 7 + 6[Ag] + 3[comp] = hit on 16+ on 2D (0% hit chance), no hits...
Missile:
To Hit: 6 + 6[Ag] + 3[comp] = hit on 15+ on 2D (0% hit chance), no hits...

Thus is the life of an LBB5 non-optimised fighter...


You need something like this to have a shadow of a chance (full computer and bridge, higher factor battery):
Code:
FH-0106M91-000000-00003-0        MCr 168          80 Dton
bearing               1                            Crew=1
batteries             1                             TL=15
                      Cargo=0 Fuel=16,8 EP=16,8 Agility=6
Code:
Dual Occupancy                                        1       210
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             0             80         
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                       10
                                                                
Manoeuvre D                            6    1        14         7
Power Plant                           21    1        17        50
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                     17         
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        16         0
Computer            m/9                9    1        13       140
                                                                
Staterooms, Small                           1         2         0
                                                                
Cargo                                                 1         
                                                                
Triple Turret       Missile            3    1         1         2
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 209,55           Sum:         1       210
Class Cost          MCr  44,01          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 167,64

Against a battleship:
To Hit: 5 - 2[Size] + 6[Ag] + 0[comp] = hit on 9+ on 2D (28% hit chance)
Penetrate Damper: 16+ (no chance), no damage...

So, shoot non-nuke missiles instead:
Damage: 2D + 6[non-nuke] + 15[armour] = 2D + 21 = best case 23, no damage...


Against warships with defences, fighters are just out of luck at TL-15 with LBB5.


Now, realistically for book5, I would write Fighters/Gunboats up as smallish Battleriders, in that Book5 default scale is 1000 tons rather than the 100 tons of Book2.
I call them missile frigates, whether ships or riders. Easily killed with particle spinals.
 
Against warships with defenses, fighters are just out of luck at TL-15 with LBB5.
In your opinion, is that a FLAW in the concept of a FIGHTER or a FLAW in the mechanics of LBB5 Combat Rules?

Should a TL 15 fighter have ZERO chance to take out a turret on a destroyer?
[a philosophical question]
 
If a fighter can be equipped with a battlefield meson accelerator and can get close enough...

or get a nuke through the armour by firing it at an open bay weapon port or down the barrel of the spinal...

Interesting. I don't know that anyone has ever mentioned or thought of that before (at least not that I have read anyway).
 
If a fighter can be equipped with a battlefield meson accelerator and can get close enough...

or get a nuke through the armour by firing it at an open bay weapon port or down the barrel of the spinal...
My favorite small fighter weapon system along those lines is a fighter equipped with a VRF Gauss Gun……

…….with Californium rounds.

VERY Ogre/GEV, almost no chance for the NDs to cook the rounds if they are in their protective box just prior to use.
 
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