Finally got my Rulebook and tried to read it...

[Ector]

Fellow Travellers, I feel very ashamed, but I didn't manage to read the T5 Core Book and fully understand it. Yes I did my best, I had a lot of time and very high motivation (I am Baron after all so noblesse oblige), but still failed. Was it really my fault or not - you decide.

Surely I was very disappointed. I've read and analyzed nearly all GURPS Traveller books and most of Mongoose Traveller books, so I can compare.

The GURPS Traveller Rulebook was too light on rules, and that made the whole line unplayable for me. I understand that characters cannot have UPP in GURPS system, but why the planets couldn't have UWP? The lack of special combat rules for Traveller was the last nail into the coffin for me, since the generic GURPS Ultra-Tech is completely unbalanced and not suited for Traveller, not even talking about GURPS Vehicles. The attempt to define space combat using actual physical numbers (kilometers, GJ etc) was doomed from the very beginning, since the players don't want to know such things. All they want to know is "what are my chances to hit this, and what are its chances to hit me".
The Mongoose Traveller Core Book is almost ideal. It has all the rules the players need to start playing, and it actively motivates them to do so! The book says: "here are your possibilities, here are your goals, here are your rules - they are quick and simple, so you're welcome!" There are some things I'd change, like the inadequate Psionics rules. I also feel that 2D is an obsolete system, as it's difficult to add modifiers without breaking the system, but the book is still amazing.

Now returning to the T5 Core book... May I say it's the worst role-playing core book I've ever seen? The core book is addressed to both the players and the Referee. It should describe infinite possibilities and actively attract players to the game. This book is more like a scientific course of Travellerology, not a game book at all. It emphasizes things that are mostly irrelevant for the players, like the difference between metric tons and dtons, or the difference between Edu and Tra, but lacks the things very useful for the players like ship operation costs. It contains dozens of the very serious tables that should probably make the role-playing easier, but as long as nearly all these tables have exceptions (distance and size R/T, for instance) they only make it harder.
Can I say that the very idea of variable dice is bad? Yes it is! The core mechanics should be as simple as possible, and this mechanics is more complicated than the classic 2D, d20 and even the GURPS 3D. Why the Referee should choose TWO parameters each time - the number of dice and the Dice Mod? The game could work on 3D even if MM wanted to keep the old stats in 2-15 range. Less complication = less unneeded probability tables. Still, I like the Flux idea, it's simple and has many uses.
The Genetics section finally stopped me. I am still failing to understand WHY this could be useful in a game book??? Every Traveller will get a clone now? Even if he will, that could be done without hitting a reader with a wall of text: "you're awakened in a medical lab". That's all.

Guys, I really jealous of you for being able to read this book. Seriously. I wish I had the ability too.

 

[arbitrary.remora]

...snip...
Now returning to the T5 Core book... May I say it's the worst role-playing core book I've ever seen? The core book is addressed to both the players and the Referee. It should describe infinite possibilities and actively attract players to the game. This book is more like a scientific course of Travellerology, not a game book at all. It emphasizes things that are mostly irrelevant for the
players,...snip...

Quoted for truth.
I've been in the RPG retail end for over 12 years and have not seen such and discordant and ill-managed collection of charts.
I expect all game designers to have a five minute pitch. They and their game should be able to tell me what to expect in less than five minutes on scanning or talking.
Even as a long term Traveller player this book left me shell shocked
Not saying there isn't diamonds of brilliance betwixt the endless charts, sure there are. But 80% of the content could have been shoved into appendixes.
I'll be hacking some stuff into my CT games but the book is proudly going to sit on my self as a 'how not to' example.

I don't mean to pile grief, but Ector spoke my thoughts to clearly to let this go by.
(sigh) -Arb

 

[esampson]

. . .I've been in the RPG retail end for over 12 years and have not seen such and discordant and ill-managed collection of charts. . .

While I myself am not happy with the current state of the rules I think that it is far from being the worst core rulebook ever published. Systems like 1st edition Time Master, where all damage was resolved with either the chart 'armed' or 'unarmned' and thus it didn't matter if you were armed with a two handed sword or a pocket knife spring to mind. If you want to complain about the rules being overly complex, lots of math, and charts galore then you could look at BTRCs early editions such as Spacetime (which actually produced great combat results but which took on the order of half an hour for two characters to exchange blows and which involved things such as the square of a characteristic for point costs and modifiers whereby you took your base odds of success and multiplied by .65 to determine your final chance of success). If you want to complain about complicated dice rolling systems than either Shadowrun or White Wolf are a bit crazier than T5.

Yes, I agree that the organization is really lacking. Things like all the makers, genetics, and chimera should have been pushed to the back of the book (or even pushed into alternate books) with a selection of pre-made equipment sandwiched between them and character generation. Unfortunately presentation has never been a particularly strong point for Traveller.

However I think that the core system doesn't seem to have any more weaknesses than any other popular system out there. Perhaps once all the errata is sorted and an actual Player's Guide is created a lot of the organizational and presentation problems can be cleaned up.

 

[NoTail]

I don't mind the complexity so much -- as a referee i like the detail and my players don't mind because I'm here to teach them what they need to know. What get's me is the stuff that is just broken or makes no sense, because 1. There is a lot of it! 2. Since the book is so complex and badly formatted, I always assume there is some rule footnote somewhere that fixes the problem. Instead of "non-mainworld planets are more likely to have a good spaceport the lower their pop? That makes no sense, I should house rule it" it's "Non-mainworld planets are more likely to have a good spaceport the lower their pop? That makes no sense, I should spend the next 2 hours combing this dense tome for the explanation that will inevitably be 200 pages away in a chart and only in the old master text PDF, if it exists."

So yeah, the complexity and lack of examples is a bother but also kind of a fun challenge (for me). It's the broken combat system, errors, and nonsensical rules are close to a deal breaker. I'll take the time to learn a complex system, not a complex mess.

The fact that the game has a specific setting but gives you next to no details on it is also irksome, but that probably affects me, a guy who has never played a traveller game before , more than most.

 

[daltoncalford]

The T5 rules had a series of nails in their coffin before the first paragraph was written.

1. Roll low, bucket of dice mechanic that killed T4, was the core mechanic for T5.
2. Include every variation with every complexity mentality - when you could have left all the makers, genetics and C* based variations for later books
3. Skill inflation - CT = 1 skill per term, Mercenary/HighGuard etc up to 4 skills per term (1 per year) T5 = 2+ skills per year
4. Multiple die mechanics (roll low, roll high, flux, d66 etc)
5. Too many cooks (spoiling the broth)

It can be saved, and it can become better.

Strip everything from the rules that is not needed for creating an imperial human character and playing the game with them. All makers go to other books. When someone wants to know how to do genetic family lines, let them read a separate booklet - no need to have rules you rarely use as part of the core rules.

Go back to the LBB. Small, to the point, simple, un-intimidating, easy to print, staple and hand out. I don't want what Mongoose produced as LBB - a miniaturized version of the rules with smaller fonts. What I am saying is what is needed is a series of small booklets comprised of 16 A4 pages, folded in half and stapled. If a booklet absolutely needs to be bigger, then cut the pages and use a metal ring binder so that the books can be thicker, but the page sizes remain the same.

The current version, should be considered an alpha version at best.

 

[esampson]

. . .Skill inflation - CT = 1 skill per term, Mercenary/HighGuard etc up to 4 skills per term (1 per year) T5 = 2+ skills per year. . .

Unless I'm missing something (and it is very possible) about the only way to generate 2 skills per year is to be a citizen for a single term or a scout. Most careers seem to get 4 per term plus 1 or 2 if they get promoted and then possibly an automatic if promoted to a certain rank. Scouts get a flat 8 and there's a couple of cases where some get things like 2 skills plus 4 more if they succeed in a roll. Citizens get 4 per year and if the first time they succeed on a roll they get another 4, so it is possible for them to get 8 skills in the first term.

It is still somewhat inflationary, but then it seems like some of the skills also break out more, like Engineering, so that kind of balances out.

. . .It can be saved, and it can become better.

Strip everything from the rules that is not needed for creating an imperial human character and playing the game with them. All makers go to other books. When someone wants to know how to do genetic family lines, let them read a separate booklet - no need to have rules you rarely use as part of the core rules.

. . .

The current version, should be considered an alpha version at best.

Pretty much my view as well. Alpha might be a bit harsh but as I'm viewing them they seem far from complete.

 

[mechascorpio]

If Pathfinder, Dungeons & Dragons, FFG's Star Wars, Iron Kingdoms and Dark Heresy (and Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, etc.) had as many problems as T5, there would currently be virtually no retail hobby at all. If Mongoose's Traveller had as many problems as T5, there would be virtually no new players coming to Traveller at all.

I don't understand why people feel it makes sense to favorably rate a book like T5 and say that it (as a game or as a book) has no significant weaknesses... as long as you discount factors like the extensive errata, presentation, organizational issues and its general inaccessibility to net new Traveller players. Add to that that there is little or nothing innovative in the game mechanics themselves, and you're left with "It's a good game because the book has many pages."

 

[Licheking]

I disagree, i find the game very enjoyable and my players seem to agree, they keep coming back week after week. I like having everything in one place, yes some things might never get used or used rarely (genetics) but i like the fact that they are there.

I have never liked companies that kept rules back from a core set just so they can release more books, i don't have a lot of money to spend on this hobby so to be able to buy 1 book knowing that its got everything i want in it is great and knowing that the company isn't going to revise the rules or add to them in future projects basically invalidating any work i had done up to that point is also great.

I understand why companies need to do this for sales purposes but it doesn't mean i have to like it. T5 is the only game i have bought in the past 3 years and i think that it is great for me. Better than CT (which i own, but couldn't bring myself to play, its too simple) and only slightly less detailed than MT (which i also own, and have been using for 20 years or so) and has required very little tweaking for me to make it work.

 

[esampson]

. . .I don't understand why people feel it makes sense to favorably rate a book like T5 and say that it (as a game or as a book) has no significant weaknesses... as long as you discount factors like the extensive errata, presentation, organizational issues and its general inaccessibility to net new Traveller players. . .

Not sure where you are getting that from. I hope it isn't from what I was saying. I am not saying 'just disregard these things'. What I am saying is 'these things are fixable'. Unfortunately fixing them requires a reorganization on the order of a new book (rather than simply some errata) but I don't believe that the core system is in need of major change.

 

[esampson]

. . .I have never liked companies that kept rules back from a core set just so they can release more books. . .

That's true, but there's also the practical matters of organization and scarying off the new crowd with a huge monolithic book. That's why I'd like to see a sort of 5.1 done where the book is split into two books, the first for the real 'core' rules (character generation, tasks, combat, setting materials such as equipment, some history, and perhaps a subsector) and a second book for the less commonly used materials (makers, because once you've made something you don't have to make it again, genetics, etc.).

This unfortunately would push up the final cost a bit for the hard copy (at a S.W.A.G. the two books might total $80-85 instead of $75) but would actually lower the entry barrier for a new player (who wouldn't really need the materials in the second book).

i don't have a lot of money to spend on this hobby so to be able to buy 1 book knowing that its got everything i want in it is great and knowing that the company isn't going to revise the rules or add to them in future projects basically invalidating any work i had done up to that point is also great. . .

Unfortunately that probably will never happen. For one thing even if the company put everything they thought of into the book they would eventually think of more stuff (hey, I just got a great idea for a new alien race!). Players will also ask for things that the company didn't think of (maybe we should make a less abstract, more miniature based version of starship combat). Finally there is just the fact that a game company is a business and in order to stay profitable they have to introduce new material every now and again.

A game is in many ways like any organic being. If it isn't growing then it's dying.

 

[robject]

This is a great thread!

It's relatively uncharacteristic of COTI in particular, and the internet in general, to have a constructive thread with so little heat.

It's refreshing and awesome. My blood pressure thanks you all so far.

What I'm getting out of this is a familiar theme: accessibility.

It's here in several forms, but the theme is accessibility. It turns out that the thing which can draw in new players also retains the old players.

It's also exactly what MOARN is all about. Map Only As Really Necessary. That's why the LBBs work, and why a Player's Guide works. It's not what a Referee's Reference is about. A game's following is built on accessible books, not omnipaedias.

 

[rancke]

It's also exactly what MOARN is all about. Map Only As Really Necessary. That's why the LBBs work, and why a Player's Guide works. It's not what a Referee's Reference is about. A game's following is built on accessible books, not omnipaedias.

MOARN works best when accompanied by DMWN (Do Map Whenever Necessary ), though. And some Traveller products do seem to be a tad deficient in that department. (No examples offered in order to keep the discussion general).

Mind you, when word/page count is constrained, DMWN is often not possible, but it should always be strived for.


Hans

 

[arbitrary.remora]

While I myself am not happy with the current state of the rules I think that it is far from being the worst core rulebook ever published. Systems like 1st edition Time Master, ...snip...

Well yes, Time Master, most of FGU's output and Aftermath were logical atrocities. But these games are ancient. It's as if there was a conscious decision in T5 to ignore all advancements (system, style and graphic arts) made in RPG gaming in the past 30 years.


Anecdotal: I gave T5 to my son (vargr corsair) as a present. After he flipped through it he stuffed it on the shelf and hauled out the LBB's.

At least we're still playing Traveller, dying in low berths, one skill per term...

 

[mike wightman]

Aftermath/Daredevils/Bushido - played them for years.

Used them to run tecno-thriller sic-fi, cyberpunk, far future sci-fi, classic fantasy, there was nothing they couldn't do.

T5 needs to be stripped down to what works and then built up from there.

Hint - players want equipment lists, ammo tracking, that sort of thing.

My most used Traveller books are battered copies of MT:IE and T4:CSC with T4:EA coming pretty close behind.
The makers are fun, but players need equipment lists and stats. I have the FASA FCI consumer guide but no one is allow to touch that now =)

I do like the concept behind the makers but you need the basic equipment details that you are going to modify.

Character generation is fine - could use some tweaks but its usable.

System design and templates etc. are probably the highlight.

I love the technology sections, but there are bits missing or difficult to find.

Has anyone else noticed that the rules now allow for transhumanism?

 

[samuelvss]

Thank you for this thread. I have CT and odd bits that I have used with it, but am loath to learn a new system "just because." WAY too lazy for that. I was having a feeling that maybe I should pry open my tight wad, and just see what T5 was about: it would have been my first non-CT Traveller purchase in about a quarter of a century. Reading this, I'm glad I didn't!

 

[cym0k]

I'm currently teaching myself T5 by going through the book and digging out the golden bits.

I appreciate having everything in one place (even if it is chaotic at times) as it means that I can play what I want without shelling out for more supplements I may never use (Cyberpunk 2020 suffered that back in the day).

We all agree that there is still work to be done to make T5 a good gateway to Traveller, but is that what it was produced as (please fill my knowledge gap!)?

The dice mechanic doesn't worry me too much either. I seem to have a high tolerance for eccentric/baroque games.

 

[Draconian]

If you want to complain about the rules being overly complex, lots of math, and charts galore then you could look at BTRCs early editions such as Spacetime (which actually produced great combat results but which took on the order of half an hour for two characters to exchange blows and which involved things such as the square of a characteristic for point costs and modifiers whereby you took your base odds of success and multiplied by .65 to determine your final chance of success).

I think I actually tried to run RHAND by Leading Edge Games at a con once. Lots of rules and charts. With each weapon you could figure out the number of attacks you had with your characteristics but it worked out to a decimal like 2.63 which meant you had 2 attacks and a 63% chance each turn of a third...

So T5 is not the worst possible system. I've played the worst. I've also read all of T5. Every last word. The combat system struck me as a bit garbled, like a joke with no punch-line. What happens when characters get damage, how does it make them feel? Does it hinder them from acting further? How?

 

[Draconian]

What is good about T5

I wanted to interject what is good about the game. Certain details, though presented matter-of-factly with no comment, suggest fabulous game adventure nuggets:

--If the senses are quantified on a scale you can unerringly derive success rolls to sense things; a character's ability in a sense vs. the intensity of it. For example, underground ruins may have explanatory graffiti on the walls with helpful hints in an alien language like "Carnivorous plant storage pen -- don't go there!" but will characters be able to detect it if it's written with, say, embedded heat-strips emitting faintly in the colour Xir (infrared) or in Mag or Lek (electromagnetic "colours")?

I'm not done with just the book senses, either. Alan Dean Foster's books on the Thranx had these mantis-like aliens with feathery antennae able to "faz" (something not covered by sound, but sensing air turbulences caused by distant surfaces??) An outstanding Thranx character might take one faz of a corridor and say, "Four guys around the corner 40 metres distant, two with rifles, two with pistols. No, I don't know who they are; I can only resolve gross shapes, not faces." If it's windy, however, it randomizes the currents and faz will disappear like a snowed-out video screen.

--WeaponMaker, Armor Maker: incredibly detailed, but allows you to define QREBS in a line of weapons by manufacturer. Thrill to the innovative, advanced high-tech edge of Eclipse Arms ("Don't just shoot them, Eclipse them!") or groan at the jams and misfires of Grubb Technologies ("This barrel collects more grime than a reporter for the Regina Tattler!")

--Maker systems in general. You can get a good plot when a mad scientist "makes" something they shouldn't have.

--The Clones chapter notes that some clones are just grown for spare-parts, but sometimes may escape. A criminal gang might happen upon a naked, shivering clone of an obvious famous or important person wandering the streets at night after his escape attempt, and might use them for a nefarious impersonation! Or a character might buy Life Insurance and if they die in the course of an adventure, their clone is activated with the memories -- but these date from 3 years ago! The player is now forced to role-play as the same character minus recent history. That character will no longer remember the new password to the security override, or not remember why the PCs must never go back to the Lift Your Spirits bar on Gerome, and decide to sit themselves down there for a quick drink as all the regulars stare aghast and open-mouthed at their presumption.

 

[KDLadage]

There is a lot to like about T5. It is there... if you can slog though the organizational nightmare to find it all. Then, as you find these things, you notice that information is missing, or listed twice with different values, or intermixed with charts that are not important to the current topic and should have been relegated to an appendix.

I loved CT back in the day. Hell, character creation was fun, and that is something I cannot say for most RPGs.

I played MT for a while. Decent system. Not as much of the fun and simplicity that made CT such a classic, but a solid, playable game with a lot of good ideas packed in there.

I tried TNE... I could not get it to grow on me.

I looked at T20... not my cup of tea. GURPS Traveller was good, but it was not Traveller in the strictest sense.

Mongoose has a decent product.

I have T5 now... and I wanted this to be the ultimate edition. But this one seems to have so many ideas that are so different from the CT/MT paradigm and not better -- they are different and seem to add nothing to the game. Why do I need to have a pool of dice that do not act like a dice pool? When has any game been successful with a roll low mechanic? *

Honestly... T5 is looking to not be my cup of tea. I have spent a little time recently (and more than a little money) to get all of the CT books in their original form. When I play Traveller -- this will be the version I play.

===

* GURPS has one. It is somewhat successful. But it has never, as far as I know, broken into the top 5 spots for RPG sales. World of Darkness, Palladium, Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, and so on all have at different times been the #1 seller... GURPS is a marginal success that is now supported almost entirely by PDF releases of a gaming magazine...

 

[Midgardsormr]

What is your definition of "successful?" My personal favorite system at the moment is Unknown Armies, which uses a roll under stat mechanic, but a higher roll is better. That's still not a strictly roll low mechanic, though. I'm not sure UA is successful using a metric of sales volume, but I think it definitely is successful at creating the gaming experience it sets out to create. Then again, I'm a fan of several small-press games that will never be considered commercially viable.

I'm modifying my own T5 gaming with that mechanic, so that a character with more Assets can potentially have higher quality results. I am still torn on how it should interact with the Spectacular Results rule, though. To be honest, I have never been fond of critical rules in general, so I suspect I'll simply drop it.

I haven't been terribly successful at a detailed reading the rules either, but I find that coming here and reading about other people's interpretations helps. And when all else fails, I ask a question! And if there just isn't a solution, then I either bolt on a piece of CT or write my own rule. Fortunately, I rather like making rules, but the fact that I am doing so is clearly a bug, not a feature.