Finally got my Rulebook and tried to read it...

[Ector]

There is a lot to like about T5. It is there... if you can slog though the organizational nightmare to find it all. Then, as you find these things, you notice that information is missing, or listed twice with different values, or intermixed with charts that are not important to the current topic and should have been relegated to an appendix.

I couldn't say it better myself.
Yes it's good to have all the information in one book. I like the approach, but the primary goal of every Core Book is to attract the new players. We all know what attracts them: possibilities. Not the tools to "make everything yourself". Simple yet powerful rules, careers, skills, starships, equipment and psionics. T5 actually has most of these, but the reader should really dig through the unneeded stuff. The equipment list is still missing, and the base mechanics is too complicated: I see totally no sense in throwing more than 3 dice. Even the character generation is counter-intuitive since there are no lists of schools/universities, and not enough examples.

I have T5 now... and I wanted this to be the ultimate edition. But this one seems to have so many ideas that are so different from the CT/MT paradigm and not better -- they are different and seem to add nothing to the game. Why do I need to have a pool of dice that do not act like a dice pool? When has any game been successful with a roll low mechanic?

Roll low mechanic isn't a suicide. D&D wouldn't be less popular with a roll low mechanic The player actions are the same: calculate all modifiers and roll. Positive modifiers are still added, negative are still subtracted.
I've played games with roll low and roll high mechanics. If GURPS has any problems with mechanics, it isn't roll low, it's the number of required rolls (the attacker rolls to-hit, the defender rolls to-defend; if some damage is applied, more rolls are needed) compared to just two rolls in D&D: to hit and to damage. Yes there could be additional rolls (saves, percentile dice for concealment etc) but the basic, most common mechanic requires just two.

 

[aramis]

So T5 is not the worst possible system. I've played the worst.

You've played FATAL?o: Ewwww!!!! o:

 

[Hemdian]

but the primary goal of every Core Book is to attract the new players.

So maybe we need a 'starter set': a players book as currently planned (a subset of the core book plus a bunch of properly worked out examples) and a setting book (so new players don't have to figure out which books they need from a third party company). Kind of like those two softcover books that came out for CT: The Traveller Book and The Traveller Adventure?

In fact, for the setting book you could just reprint The Traveller Adventure (with all the stats reworked into T5) with the bits of setting from The Traveller Book merged in.

 

[PhilB]

So maybe we need a 'starter set': a players book as currently planned (a subset of the core book plus a bunch of properly worked out examples) and a setting book (so new players don't have to figure out which books they need from a third party company).

I think a players book would help. But I don't think that would remedy the accessibility, usability and readability problems in the current book. I think a major re-edit and re-structure is needed regardless.

 

[Shonner]

It can be saved, and it can become better.

Did anyone try to save T4 or make it better?

 

[rancke]

So maybe we need a 'starter set': a players book as currently planned (a subset of the core book plus a bunch of properly worked out examples) and a setting book (so new players don't have to figure out which books they need from a third party company). Kind of like those two softcover books that came out for CT: The Traveller Book and The Traveller Adventure?

A starter set would definitely be a big advantage for attracting new players.

In fact, for the setting book you could just reprint The Traveller Adventure (with all the stats reworked into T5) with the bits of setting from The Traveller Book merged in.

And with the various mistakes corrected.


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

[st]I have no idea how I got angry face on there. This is not an angry post.[/st]

I built out a four sector MTU and started a game with three friends. We've been having a blast. I built a Type Y yacht last week from the launchpad up, and it was kind of a slog, but the next ship will be faster. Character generation was rough at first, too, but that got better with practice and familiarity. Our game is off to a strong start and the players are positive about T5 so far.

I think MM was bold to publish a game without a setting. The tools and systems in the BBB are gamemaster gold to me. I love to build and color my own settings and the tools in T5 give me what I need to do that. Providing me those tools without a pre-established setting constraint was like pouring gasoline on the fire of my imagination. Cheesy, but true.

The thing I regret most about the book is a lack of an index and glossary, but using the PDF version makes those things less critical. I find myself using a computer or tablet in games now, so having those reference tools built into the print versions of books isn't as big a deal as it would have been.

I hope a revised version comes out to broaden the public appeal. A players handbook would partially fill that need, I think. I also hope MM keeps releasing errata and revisions to the BBB and at some point makes available a copy of the rules with it all incorporated.

If none of that happened, I'd still play it. I'd just change what I needed to suit my game, which I'll do anyway.

 

[daltoncalford]

Did anyone try to save T4 or make it better?

Back then, their was really no one to speak with. I purchased every book in the series, including the magazines. But, it was not a good system. We ended up creating our own game system using the setting.

Even then, many aspects of the setting did not work. It just did not feel like traveller.

T5, with so many skills available and the attributes being equal to skill in value, does not feel like traveller - it feels more like space opera.

There are enough games out there where every crew member is an expert in everything, creating new technology on the fly or performing multiple incredible feats in widely different areas of expertise.

It was the importance of skills and their rarity that gave traveller its feel.

Also, the UPP and short skill listing made characters easy to run and manage - players did not have to spend minutes browsing lists to figure out what skills their player has.

So, T4 and T5 lost the original feel that CT/MT had. TNE was an also ran with the same name but different game mechanics/setting so it was Traveller in only name.

If T5 had been MT or a reworked MGT with the T5 builders, I think the reception would have been alot more positive.

So, in the end, we have a new game system, set in a familiar setting, but with enough changes that the setting and game mechanics don't exactly mesh up.

The game system is poorly presented with game mechanics that are generally disliked by the old school, while the layout of the book will limit adoption by new players.

MGT is the closest successor to CT and it is getting new players. It has been producing new material on a regular basis and the 2300AD setting uses the same rules.

MGT+T5 builders, may be the system ultimately used by most players.

 

[robject]

Did anyone try to save T4 or make it better?

Practically out of the starting gate, at least two unofficial fixes were proposed to alleviate two fundamental problems: the annoying half die, and the fatal characteristic/skill imbalance.

And, even though the starship design system and FFS2 were essentially unified -- and QSDS added that supposed sweet spot in starship design that many had been longing for -- apparently no-one loved them enough to try to fix them.

Further down the line, a post-mortem revision was started (T4.1), but it eventually became plain that the revision was more different than similar. Hence T5.

 

[HG_B]

If T5 had been MT or a reworked MGT with the T5 builders, I think the reception would have been alot more positive.

I think so. Probably along the lines of MT (cleaned up and highly polished) with a GM section that details all the maker/under the hood type stuff. Make a section detailing conversion from MGT. Mongoose would lead on getting new players & T5 being the up-sell path.

 

[Draconian]

You've played FATAL?o: Ewwww!!!! o:

I said I PLAYED a RPG. FATAL would involve so much hair-pulling the pain would nullify any concept of game or playing. :rofl:

 

[Vargas]

I have never liked companies that kept rules back from a core set just so they can release more books . . .

I understand why companies need to do this for sales purposes but it doesn't mean i have to like it.

Don't discount the fact that some companies need to produce smaller page count books because that's what they can afford to do in order to get the game out the door.

I couldn't say it better myself. Yes it's good to have all the information in one book. I like the approach, but the primary goal of every Core Book is to attract the new players.

Except it's really hard to believe that T5 is intended to do that. Every indication I can see is that it's intended as the ultimate version of the game for a niche group within the established core fan base. MgT is far better positioned to be the current gateway version of Traveller.

 

[Shonner]

There are enough games out there where every crew member is an expert in everything, creating new technology on the fly or performing multiple incredible feats in widely different areas of expertise.

I'm trying to avoid that happening in Mongoose. New players want want to error on having every skill listed on their character sheet. And then still be able to level up during a game session.

If T5 had been MT or a reworked MGT with the T5 builders, I think the reception would have been alot more positive.

It should have been this. Their concept back in the day. http://www.traveller5.com/

Practically out of the starting gate, at least two unofficial fixes were proposed to alleviate two fundamental problems: the annoying half die, and the fatal characteristic/skill imbalance.

And, even though the starship design system and FFS2 were essentially unified -- and QSDS added that supposed sweet spot in starship design that many had been longing for -- apparently no-one loved them enough to try to fix them.

Further down the line, a post-mortem revision was started (T4.1), but it eventually became plain that the revision was more different than similar. Hence T5.

Ok. I remember the .5 die now. I wasn't in the TML for that long.

 

[robject]

It should have been this. Their concept back in the day. http://www.traveller5.com/

I haven't looked at that page in years. You know, I had generated a lot of characters using that old draft.

I note that the Tasks PDF there is essentially unchanged, the Starports chapter is generic, short, and unfinished, and chargen is T4.1 -- some commonality with T5, some resemblence to T4. The "Wish List" looks have about the same proposed content as the final product... including a proposed Player's Handbook that follows after the Core Rules. And the Core Rules is called a reference book, essentially what we have.

Content-wise, the core rules have enough to satisfy Traveller as a reference book. Errata... well we all know that problem. Organizationally... well we all know that problem too. And accessibility... well we all know that problem as well.

 

[daltoncalford]

The presentation on that page is what I always wished would happen with T5.
If I had the source documents for T5 instead of the pdf, I would try to make that come to life.
If only T5 was OGL. We would see that.
Keep the imperium and OTU closed and open up the rules like MGT did.
Then we can put a merger of the two into play.

 

[HG_B]

The presentation on that page is what I always wished would happen with T5.
If I had the source documents for T5 instead of the pdf, I would try to make that come to life.

Just get Acrobat and edit to your hearts content (for yourself).

 

[Ron Strong]

I am about to give my first game of T5 a try and I do have to say that while I like the game so far I do think a lot of the criticisms in this thread are valid.

I am not exactly a new Traveller player, but neither am I an old vet. I played Traveller way back when MegaTraveller was the newest version, hadn't really played it since the early/mid nineties, but I liked it and decided to get back into it again when I heard about T5.

Mostly I feel lost. Things are poorly explained. The fact that there are so many major pieces of errata I have to keep track of just to get a character made drives me mad. There are charts without explanations, explanations for things far seperated from the things the things the explain. And many, many puzzling choices of what was put in and what was left out. I mean seriously, no examples of ship creation or even fully statted out ships but an umpteen page explanation of how senses work? Really?

The parts I can make sense of, I enjoy and while I think I can pull together what I know, and fill in the blanks myself, enough to make an enjoyable game out of this, I really don't think it should be this hard. If I were new to the hobby, or even just a COMPLETE newb to Traveller in general I don't think I would go to the effort. Which is a shame because I think there is a gem of a game hiding in there, it just needs some major editing to extract it.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

Got Mine Today

I can agree that there are a few things worth picking out of T5 (Flux, clones as characters, and the detail within the design processes just to name some). After all it's 653 pages long and there are good concepts and good systems in here. But, it's clear that this book is over-designed. It's a rulebook, and a sophisticated one at that. With it I can design everything from Sectors filled with stars, all the way down to an inkpen. But what gets lost is the adventure I fell in love with when I began this journey way back in High School.

What I wanted and hoped for in T5 was an adventure game, optimally a game that I could easily bring new people into. People who, once they caught the bug of role-playing in the rich setting of Traveller, could go out, buy their own books and explore the game and universe on their own. T5, just can't do that. It's simply too dense, and speaks it's own language, but it's a language in charts and forms and acronyms.

Taken in small doses, the presentation can work itself out. But there are a LOT of small doses in here. Given the size and scope of this book, the task of deciphering the complex mechanic becomes not only intimidating, but overwhelming.

I think the most disheartening conclusion I'm drawing is that despite over 650 pages of systems, there is no adventure here. There are the tools to create a campaign as rich as any Traveller, or science fiction game offers (and honestly, I think it may be possible to design Krypton using this book) but those tools come with little application. There is a chart to determine how many d6 a strategic-thermonuclear-explosion does on a direct hit (4 sets of 100d6 if your'e curious), but no simple listing of "classic" (as opposed to the Classic in CT) Traveller weapons, like the Snub Pistol, ACR, or PGMP. I've found where to create them, and even can see where the authors walk me through designing a Gauss Rifle at TL12. But if I was sitting with an eager player tonight, and they rolled up a Mercenary. I'd have to go to earlier editions of Traveller to give her a simple description of what her service weapon is capable of.

I can design my beloved Aslan species, but can't find them in 650 pages, except as vague examples. Same goes for Vargr, Zhodani, Hivers.. and these races have been in prominent in the Traveller Universe for 30 years.

I'm not really certain how to conclude this little piece of my mind. The book is going to look damn sexy on my shelf. The cover retains the beautiful, elegant design that I've appreciated for a quarter century. But what's inside, is just a mess.

 

[daltoncalford]

Just get Acrobat and edit to your hearts content (for yourself).

Last time I edited an acrobat document, page to page formatting was a mess, table conversions where problematic and the tool was only good for small errata level changes.

PDF import utilities are generally not much better.

With an OGL SRD, I am assured of a few things - (1) I do the work and share it, as doing a bunch of work you cant share is generally self defeating (2) the game will benefit from a group of minds which was the way traveller was in the beginning - picture early traveller without fasa, gw, dgp and all the other producers for the game.

Mongoose has done an excellent job on MGT which is also an OGL SRD system.

Marc has nothing to loose by releasing the current material and keeping the Logo and 3I as things people have to trademark/license.

The books are produced, printed and pretty much sold thanks to the kickstarter.

 

[HG_B]

Last time I edited an acrobat document, page to page formatting was a mess, table conversions where problematic and the tool was only good for small errata level changes.

What tool was used to create the T5 pdf?