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Financing and repossession

If the police do come near it, however, they will gladly charge you with grand theft auto.

Incorrect. that's why cars in the home garage stay there until a repo guy catches the person using it. Even on traffic stops the police do NOTHING about it.

The point you're missing is that they aren't listed as stolen. It is a PURELY civil matter for defaulting on a loan. The car is collateral for a loan. They are not listed as stolen vehicles.
 
Why would this level of government trouble itself with a loan default from the planet of Wonga to a ship purchaser?

Because the financing of ships is the basis of the small trade in the whole Imperium, and allowing skippers would risk it all, perhaps?

The main arteries of the Imperium are probably served by larger, megacorp owned ships, where skipping is not a possibility (as it would be outright threft, because the captain is not the owner), but most worlds are served by tramp freighters, and those are the financed ones and the ones likely to skipp. If they're allowed to do so, financing would be in risk (or at least interests raised) and the whole tramp freighter "system", so vital to keep the Imperium as such, could be in jeopardy.

Aside from this, I asume most financing is by megacorps (or their surrogates), and planets are unlike to finance them directly. If they have the money to do so, they're (IMHO) more likely to subsidize merchants, so keeping some control on them, tan to just finance starships that may well never call again in their starports.
 
Aside from this, I asume most financing is by megacorps (or their surrogates),

Most likely it is financial institutions (banks) that would be as they are in the loan business. A Microsoft is less likely to be the lender than a Citicorp...
 
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Isn't it a bit unhelpful to compare just one limited aspect of one countries legal system in one period of times methods of dealing with vehicle repossession and apply it as the standard for the subject at hand?

I'm not too familiar with the law but I've heard the term debtors prison.

Also, not as common for civil law, but for criminal law there can be varied responses to someone not appearing in court. Revoking licenses, bench warrants and so on. I think that Imperial financial institutions would be more likely the lenders than a localized world and don't know why issues with ship loans wouldn't be considered detrimental to trade and finance and be criminal.

But barring such, I'd think
Even on traffic stops the police do NOTHING about it.
Is not always the case if the lender has gone through the proper procedures. Even here and now in some parts of the US.
- The creditor goes to court and gets a judgement against the debtor. In many cases, this action is quite successful because the debtor never shows up to defend him or herself.
- Once the creditor has obtained this judgment, they ask the judge for an “examination.” In theory, this process is intended to assess whether or not the indebted person has bank accounts or other assets that can be seized to pay their debts.
- If they again don’t appear in court, then the creditor asks for a “body attachment,” to imprison the debtor until the next hearing or until they cough up bail money that’s often the same amount as the debt.

"An investigation by the Star Tribune of Minneapolis-St. Paul found that a growing number of creditors have gotten judges to issue arrest warrants to people who owe as little as $250."
 
The point you're missing is that they aren't listed as stolen. It is a PURELY civil matter for defaulting on a loan. The car is collateral for a loan. They are not listed as stolen vehicles.

There is a different thing between the civil matter of defaulting on a loan, and the criminal matter of hiding collateral. The latter is essentially stealing, and police get involved in my experience as a criminal defense attorney. Usually, if the vehicle is hidden, and the lender can show that it is being hidden, then the police will go ahead and put a warrant out.

That said, most repos are civil matters, where the collateral is not hidden. In OTU, skipping is clearly hiding collateral. IMTU, the Imperium lives and breathes to protect trade. If they do no facilitate the dissemination of information on skipping ships, then they have little reason to exist. It's a big universe. Skipping is an Imperial crime, IMTU; not that they'll burn a lot of LHyd looking for you, but they'll put the word out, and if they stumble across you, you posterior belongs to them.
 
There is a different thing between the civil matter of defaulting on a loan, and the criminal matter of hiding collateral. The latter is essentially stealing, and police get involved in my experience as a criminal defense attorney. Usually, if the vehicle is hidden, and the lender can show that it is being hidden, then the police will go ahead and put a warrant out.

You should let the repo's know this! Currently most of their job is recovering vehicles that the person is "hiding". ;)
 
You should let the repo's know this! Currently most of their job is recovering vehicles that the person is "hiding". ;)

I've a buddy who does repos... he's recovered 400 vehicles in 15 years from at least 15 states... only 1 was "hidden"... the rest were simply not surrendered.
 
That said, most repos are civil matters, where the collateral is not hidden. In OTU, skipping is clearly hiding collateral. IMTU, the Imperium lives and breathes to protect trade. If they do no facilitate the dissemination of information on skipping ships, then they have little reason to exist. It's a big universe. Skipping is an Imperial crime, IMTU; not that they'll burn a lot of LHyd looking for you, but they'll put the word out, and if they stumble across you, you posterior belongs to them.

I don't see any logical reason why skipping couldn't be an Imperial crime. Given the canonical quotes we've seen in this thread I'd argue that it is. I just think it's a Bad Idea from a gaming point of view. Because I don't see how it can be an Imperial crime and allow skippers to be overlooked by the authorities. Any world that has one or more of a) a manned starport, b) system defenses, or c) Imperial naval assets stationed would be closed to skippers. They arrive broadcasting their name; the local authorities check them against a list; they get arrested. There's no effort involved that could make the authorities overlook them in preference to more serious prey.

I repeat what I said earlier: If you want your players to worry about resistable attempts at repossession, you HAVE to keep the Imperium out of it.


Hans
 
I've a buddy who does repos... he's recovered 400 vehicles in 15 years from at least 15 states... only 1 was "hidden"... the rest were simply not surrendered.

You can operate a car without driving into the local police HQ and announcing your identity every time you take it out for a spin. That's one reason why car respossession is not a good analogy for starship resposession.


Hans
 
"An investigation by the Star Tribune of Minneapolis-St. Paul found that a growing number of creditors have gotten judges to issue arrest warrants to people who owe as little as $250."

I read the whole article.

Those people were arrested for "failure to appear", having been summons to court OR "contempt of court" for failing to abide by a court order. In most every place in the USA IF you can't pay a court ordered fee, fine, or judgement plan YOU can (and it's up to you) seek a rehearing to allow more time or seek an adjustment thereof.

Ignore a court order at you peril.
 
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You can operate a car without driving into the local police HQ and announcing your identity every time you take it out for a spin. That's one reason why car respossession is not a good analogy for starship resposession.


Hans

In the US it wouldn't matter if you did. Police don't handle repossession of loan collateral. (the vehicle)
 
...Imperial government begins at the subsector level. ...

Wouldn't it be considered to begin at the starport level, that being Imperial territory?

There is a different thing between the civil matter of defaulting on a loan, and the criminal matter of hiding collateral. The latter is essentially stealing, and police get involved in my experience as a criminal defense attorney. Usually, if the vehicle is hidden, and the lender can show that it is being hidden, then the police will go ahead and put a warrant out. ...

For theft? Beg pardon, but whether or not it's considered theft - or whatever other statute the police are relying on for their warrant - depends on the precise wording of state law, which of course will vary from state to state, which makes that a difficult precedent to apply to the present discussion. Establishes only that it's possible, and given that canon doesn't provide many details, almost anything is possible. Considering the forum we're in, even canon is not a limit and literally anything is possible.

Which brings me to a point: we're having a great discussion, but a lot of it's argument about how the Imperium would or wouldn't do something when there's only a little canon information on what the Imperium would actually do. Given gaps in canon that you could fly a skipped ship through, almost anything is possible, and the flexibility handed the game master under CT Book 2 means you can have anything from a universe that makes skipping nearly impossible to one where - abetted by an apathetic Imperial government - it's a serious problem.

My answer, as I stated in the opening post, was carrot-and-stick. The debtor has a 20% starting stake, more as time goes by. Sure, a creditor can make rules that take all of that on a default, but it's counterproductive: you increase the odds of a skip, and if you contrive to make laws that make skipping impossible, then you decrease the demand for your loans - I'm not about to sink 7+ million into a high-risk venture with a potential for 100% loss when I can make safer investments planetside.

To replicate circumstances that favor the kind of active tramp shipping sector that Traveller shows us, you need circumstances that encourage folk to risk that 20%, and - in my opinion - that is best had by creating circumstances that allow them to recover a reasonable chunk of that investment if the business goes sour. That way, they don't have an incentive to skip: if the business fails, the bank gets the ship and a nice profit from fees and penalties carved out of that 20%, the captain/owner walks away with the surviving portion of that 7+ million to try to grow into his next venture (or retire on), and the bank looks on the potential for the captain/owner to come back in a few years and try it again. If he skips, he risks millions on the hope that he can somehow stay ahead of the bounty hunters a.k.a. skip tracers.

That has several advantages. It favors players: the bank has a profit incentive to bargain with a player if he can't make a payment, to extend the player a bit more rope (for a suitable fee) to either pull himself out of the hole or hang himself with. It gives the game master some wiggle room when the players show up in port a bit short for the next payment (and an opportunity to confront them with corrupt bankers who want a little something extra to provide the service). It creates a distinction between being behind on payments (with the bank's consent) and skipping. If it comes to foreclosure, the player's grounded with enough of a stake to have a realistic hope of growing it into another ship one day, which offers a direction for continued campaigning. It makes skipping rare - only the die-hard who will not accept the inevitable gambles his remaining wealth that way - which offers an excuse for an apathetic Imperial government that leaves the skip-hunting primarily in the hands of the creditor. Also makes skipping more an interesting campaign possibility than a certain-doom event, since the players stand a better chance against pursuing skip-tracers and the odd (and bribable) local official than against the gathered might of the Imperium.

After all, it's ultimately about crafting an interesting adventure, no?

Here's an interesting bit: some auto-loan creditors are now installing an interlock device that prevents your car from starting if you fall behind in payments. I'm not sure how that works; it was mentioned on a Federal Trade Commission consumer website, but no details were given. I'm guessing it responds to a signal sent by the creditor, or maybe they give you a code to enter every time you make a payment - and you don't get a code when you miss a payment. Of course, the average Traveller ship captain's more savvy about how to get around such things than the typical Terran fry cook who might buy a car from an operation that uses such things.
 
I read the whole article.

Those people were arrested for "failure to appear", having been summons to court OR "contempt of court" for failing to abide by a court order. In most every place in the USA IF you can't pay a court ordered fee, fine, or judgement plan YOU can (and it's up to you) seek a rehearing to allow more time or seek an adjustment thereof.

Ignore a court order at you peril.
Which I'd think is applicable to the subject of someone trying to skip out on their ship debt in Traveller.
 
In the US it wouldn't matter if you did. Police don't handle repossession of loan collateral. (the vehicle)
What do they do with the vehicle of someone who is stopped for whatever reason and has a warrant (perhaps for failing to appear or comply with a debt related court event) and is arrested?
 
What do they do with the vehicle of someone who is stopped for whatever reason and has a warrant (perhaps for failing to appear or comply with a debt related court event) and is arrested?

The car will be towed to the police impound lot until picked up after towing and storage fees are paid. It will be released only to a party with a legal claim. The owner, in arrears for payments or not, or a lender representative if they can show a court order for judgement and right of possession.
 
They are not listed as stolen vehicles.
That's what you're missing: if the institution does list them as stolen, then the police take an interest. That was my point.

... in my experience as a criminal defense attorney.
*ahem*

You can operate a car without driving into the local police HQ and announcing your identity every time you take it out for a spin.
Excellent point.
 
Sigh.

The OP would like to respectfully request that we move forward from debating the specific details of this or that state's laws and whether it really happens that way or not in the real world. With 50 states and several hundred nations to choose from, we can find a model that proves or disproves almost anything. I'd prefer to keep the discussion more game-oriented: how might some of these ideas play out in a Traveller setting, are there hidden ramifications, what elements give us a flavor more like the traditional TU and so forth.
 
What do they do with the vehicle of someone who is stopped for whatever reason and has a warrant (perhaps for failing to appear or comply with a debt related court event) and is arrested?

If it's not listed as stolen, vladika has the right of it.

The car will be towed to the police impound lot until picked up after towing and storage fees are paid. It will be released only to a party with a legal claim. The owner, in arrears for payments or not, or a lender representative if they can show a court order for judgement and right of possession.

If it is listed as stolen (which some states allow), it will be impounded, the registered owner (the bank) notified, and a short, no fee window will exist for them to come get it. (The guy caught driving it gets to pay the impound fees.)

In small towns, it may be "until the sheriff needs the parking spot back".... with the axle chained to the station to prevent other family members from easily reacquiring it.

Keep in mind: the Imperium, like the US, has a lack of legal uniformity.

Which means to the ship driver - if the bank decides you've skipped, and puts the word out, local reactions vary.
  • A system might seize the ship, and everything aboard, arrest the crew for barratry, and let the bank come get it.
  • Another might simply turn the crew loose after letting them recover everything aboard.
  • Yet another might offer to reregister it if the crew can pay off the note owed immediately.
  • Others still will just notify the bank and let the skip tracers work it out.

The IN, canonically, if they come to notice, will impound the ship for the bank. This implies that the 3I is the guarantor of the loan; as such, they have a high interest in keeping skips down to a minimum. (pun intended.)
 
...Keep in mind: the Imperium, like the US, has a lack of legal uniformity.

Which means to the ship driver - if the bank decides you've skipped, and puts the word out, local reactions vary.
  • A system might seize the ship, and everything aboard, arrest the crew for barratry, and let the bank come get it.
  • Another might simply turn the crew loose after letting them recover everything aboard.
  • Yet another might offer to reregister it if the crew can pay off the note owed immediately.
  • Others still will just notify the bank and let the skip tracers work it out.

I'm puzzled. Are you referring to the planetary governments? The starport's Imperial territory, no? How are the planetary governments exercising jurisdiction within the starport? Am I misunderstanding the reference to lack of legal uniformity, or am I misunderstanding something regarding planetary government jurisdiction?

The IN, canonically, if they come to notice, will impound the ship for the bank. This implies that the 3I is the guarantor of the loan; as such, they have a high interest in keeping skips down to a minimum. (pun intended.)

What canon references have navy warships impounding skipped merchantmen? How does impounding the ship imply that the 3I is a guarantor? What about the financial enterprises simply having enough political influence to persuade Imperial authorities to pursue policies that protect their interests? There's likely to be a lot of shared interest between the nobility and the financiers.
 
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