Financing and repossession

[CosmicGamer]

I have access to the MgT star ports book so it is the easiest for me to reference.

I'm puzzled. Are you referring to the planetary governments? The starport's Imperial territory, no? How are the planetary governments exercising jurisdiction within the starport? Am I misunderstanding the reference to lack of legal uniformity, or am I misunderstanding something regarding planetary government jurisdiction?

In MgT

Under most circumstances world governments have jurisdiction in military and legal matters out to orbital space, defined as ten planetary diameters. From there to a hundred diameters is a zone of shared jurisdiction between the Imperium and the member world. Beyond one hundred diameters (the normal safe Jump limit) is Imperial territory.

Is it different in other versions? So wouldn't it be the locals that would interact with ships within their space?

I personally like a lot of variety in MTU. Variety doesn't necessarily defy canon but fills in gaps not detailed. As far as the star port itself, I'd think that different class star ports would almost have to handle it differently with some smaller ports not even having the ability to stop a well manned, trained, and equipped group from pretty much doing anything they want. For example, MgT says this for class D ports

Class D Starports see enough trade to make a permanent security detail a necessity. This is unlikely to comprise more than two officers on duty at any one time

Again from MgT for trouble beyond what the starport can handle

If any serious trouble does occur, the Port Director may elect to register a call for assistance with the local emergency services.

People are people and some may interpret things differently or the laws themselves may allow for variation. With our legal system two offenders of the same crime could result in one being assigned to rehab while another is sentenced to jail time. Criminals making deals with DAs to lesser charges and so on.

There can be corruption and bribery. Incompetency or ignorance. And so on and so on.

What canon references have navy warships impounding skipped merchantmen?

While not specifically using the word impound, here is a reference from the MgT core rules regarding navy warships hunting down skipped merchantmen

they may be chased by ship tracers (bounty hunters) employed by the bank, or logged as criminals in the Imperial database and hunted down by naval vessels.

 

[McPerth]

Another thing to take into account is, assuming skipping may be trated as a crime, where does the crime happen?

As the fact of skipping occurs (IMHO) when jumping to have your tail lost (and so over the 100 diameter limit), it falls fully in Imperial jurisdiction, so becoming an Imperial crime.

 

[McPerth]

I don't see any logical reason why skipping couldn't be an Imperial crime. Given the canonical quotes we've seen in this thread I'd argue that it is. I just think it's a Bad Idea from a gaming point of view. Because I don't see how it can be an Imperial crime and allow skippers to be overlooked by the authorities. Any world that has one or more of a) a manned starport, b) system defenses, or c) Imperial naval assets stationed would be closed to skippers. They arrive broadcasting their name; the local authorities check them against a list; they get arrested. There's no effort involved that could make the authorities overlook them in preference to more serious prey.

I repeat what I said earlier: If you want your players to worry about resistable attempts at repossession, you HAVE to keep the Imperium out of it.

And thats a critical point in the discussion (after all this is IMTU forum, not an OTU only thread, so canon is not so important): which kind of universe do we want our players to be in?

IN a universe where Imperium is lenient about this, and takes no steps to avoid it (after all, it also folsters trade, albeit at banks' loss) or in a universe where the Imperium regulates most trade and keeps for the interests of the Banks?

If you want your players to have the possibility to skipp the payments and flee with their ship, then you'd beter not to allow Imperial authorities to intervine. If you want skipping to be only the last option (and then they better leave the Imperium and begin to trade/adventure outside it), then your Imperium should be more involved in fighting skippers.

Both options can give good grounds for adventuring.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Another thing to take into account is, assuming skipping may be trated as a crime, where does the crime happen?

As the fact of skipping occurs (IMHO) when jumping to have your tail lost (and so over the 100 diameter limit), it falls fully in Imperial jurisdiction, so becoming an Imperial crime.

Much like (though I'm not saying the 3I, or anyone else's TU is like the US) when a kidnapper crosses state lines in the US, and it becomes within the jurisdiction of the FBI, rather than a local matter.

 

[McPerth]

Much like (though I'm not saying the 3I, or anyone else's TU is like the US) when a kidnapper crosses state lines in the US, and it becomes within the jurisdiction of the FBI, rather than a local matter.

Well, my guess is that it would be more like if the crime was commited into a Federal jurisdiction place (e.g. as I have heard*, a postal office). It's not a case of a criminal crossing a jurisdiction border, but the crime itself is commited in Imperial jurisdiction (in this case ovr the 100 diameters, as is there where thy jump to fleeing).

*Remember I'm not US citizen, so less knowledgeable of US laws than most of you.

 

[BytePro]

Taking someone's ship without permission = piracy. :devil:

Walking into a police station with goods reported as stolen runs a certain risk of authorities taking notice. Driving a car of the same make, model and color of a reportedly stolen one may attract attention of authorities. With the same license plate - will almost assuredly be chased if such notice is taken.​

If a skipping ex-owner doesn't change transponder, visual identification marks and 'papers' and hasn't outrun the data - they are going to be flagged automatically. Though its possible the flags are unwatched or outright ignored - especially in low quality starports, in corrupt systems and in systems that simply lack the resources to do anything. Such flagging means authorities have the right to pursue, board and impound.

Once the obvious identifying stuff is taken care of, an onboard or very close-in sensor inspection will be required.

IMTU, the authorities will require extra cause to legally do such ('probable cause' based on another crime or a warrant), or an open invitation from someone aboard ship. Skip tracers walk a fine legal line. A skip tracer who gets aboard is okay, if they get proof. If not, they would be subject to being treated as a criminal (B&E, vandalism). They can be detained and removed from the ship, as long as they are not harmed (in which case the ship may be considered a crime scene).

 

[aramis]

I'm puzzled. Are you referring to the planetary governments? The starport's Imperial territory, no? How are the planetary governments exercising jurisdiction within the starport? Am I misunderstanding the reference to lack of legal uniformity, or am I misunderstanding something regarding planetary government jurisdiction?

Worlds have joint jurisdiction out to 100 diameters. The system navy can seize the ship just as fast as the Imperial Navy.

 

[pennshome723]

Look as the GM do some story telling and set your own standard.

most systems have just a few vessels, so their "Navu" at best is usally just a couple of vessels. The core might be (4) System Defense Boats, maybe (1) slightly larger vessel, maybe (2) 200 ton Jump Vessel types that are used for different jobs, and a couple of Cutters/Shuttles.

Next have them able to go 'ANYWHERE' within the solar system, and they "ARE the LAW". So if a Imperial Fleet vessel gets involved they usually will yield to the Civil athorities control, BUT in some cases the Imperial control is required and they will take charge.

As a GM your the Story Teller, so take charge and tell the tale that you want to tell, in the way and format you choose to tell it it. The books of rules are just sudjestion, follow direction YOU want or choose.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Dead on.

Well, my guess is that it would be more like if the crime was commited into a Federal jurisdiction place (e.g. as I have heard*, a postal office). It's not a case of a criminal crossing a jurisdiction border, but the crime itself is commited in Imperial jurisdiction (in this case ovr the 100 diameters, as is there where thy jump to fleeing).

*Remember I'm not US citizen, so less knowledgeable of US laws than most of you.

For not being a US Citizen, you nailed it. If a you rob a post office or jack up a postal carrier you skip the local or state jurisdiction and get "busted by the Postman" (who in the US have an excellent closure and conviction rate). Though if the Feds mess up the case they can then let the lesser jurisdiction take a shot.

Otherwise, I am enjoying this thread very much. And in my ATU I think it depends, but I see I should put some serious thinking on this matter.

 

[Carlobrand]

Worlds have joint jurisdiction out to 100 diameters. The system navy can seize the ship just as fast as the Imperial Navy.

Hmm, I had always thought of orbital space control and orbital customs falling under the starport authority, since that's where the ships were ending up. Okay, help me out here.

COACC (somewhat questionable as canon, I understand) limits the reach of planetary forces to 1/10 the orbital diameter of a world, but that's more a question of organization. System defense forces include SDBs, who are responsible for far orbit defense and defense of gas giants and other strategic targets within the system - but, while equipped and manned by the planetary governments, they ultimately answer to the Imperial high command. However, that doesn't say anything about their peacetime use in a "coast guard" role; planetary government could exercise control to that extent. Still, where in canon is it implied that system defenses are going to be involved in police work? Or is that one of those things canon says niether yea nor nay over, that we can incorporate or not as we see fit?

Imperial jurisdiction extends to the space between worlds, imprecise boundaries that give us considerable wiggle room. The starport is also Imperial jurisdiction. A quarter of the worlds don't have the tech to get outside their own atmospheres, and many of these have appreciable starports, which means Imperial authorities are exercising effective control of orbital space. For those that do have the needed tech, local planetary governments range from basically lawless nothings to Orwellian monstrosities - but they'd have to mostly play by Imperial rules if we're talking about joint jurisdiction, else they can exert their own authority to impose protectionist trade restrictions protect local business, which I understand is an Imperial no-no.

That would be the customs craft: cutters and other boats, maybe the little fighters since they're pretty effective against civilian craft, maybe patrol cruisers. Canon on customs is - very, very confusing. Most of it seems to be happening on the ground, in the starport, but Traveller Adventure talks about Aramis messaging Natoko and then Patinir about a burglary suspect believed to have fled on the players' ship, with a hint that Patinir customs can be evaded. What canon references do we have that speak to who's manning the customs craft and whether the local law level's being applied?

 

[Carlobrand]

...In MgT ...

Umm, I don't have any Mongoose stuff. Are we talking Mongoose is same universe canon as CT, or are we talking a GURPS parallel universe thing?

 

[aramis]

COACC limits army and air-force to 1/10 diameter.

 

[atpollard]

Worlds have joint jurisdiction out to 100 diameters. The system navy can seize the ship just as fast as the Imperial Navy.

Which for a poorer system that awarded 'prize money' to the crew of the Planetary Navy Ship that recovers the 'stolen' ship for the bank, could be a lucrative source of easy money (and a heck of a morale booster).

 

[Carlobrand]

COACC limits army and air-force to 1/10 diameter.

Oop, sorry if I didn't make that distinction clear enough. I was referring to the army and air force when I spoke of planetary forces. I think of SDBs as system forces under a NATO-like joint command arrangement, where they're raised, funded and staffed by the planetary government but Imperial authorities have overall command authority in wartime.

Which for a poorer system that awarded 'prize money' to the crew of the Planetary Navy Ship that recovers the 'stolen' ship for the bank, could be a lucrative source of easy money (and a heck of a morale booster).

Prize money? Ming the Merciless does not give "prize money" for doing the job you were commanded to do. Get back to work, peon, or I'll boost the crew's morale by chaining your worthless carcass to the bow and letting them watch you burn away as the ship re-enters atmosphere. :devil:

 

[CosmicGamer]

Are we talking Mongoose is same universe canon as CT, or are we talking a GURPS parallel universe thing?

I own nothing and know almost nothing of GURPS Traveller. I don't have the "canon" that others have (my CT days were prior to much of it coming out and we only picked and chose a few things from what came later. Now I'm mostly MgT.). I don't know if there are any rules for when one version of Traveller canon is not compatible with another. I'd think whatever came last, since it all goes through Mark?, would be the final word - not that people can't ignore it or state that they only use the items released for their version or whatever.

I also thought that the setting details of the different versions of traveller took place in different time periods - not that the game itself has to be played in that time period. I know for something like 2300 and MgT 3rd Imperium set in 1105 it is quite different. So something being different between versions only means the Imperium does have variety and changes over time.

Umm, I don't have any Mongoose stuff.

That's fine. Sorry if my answers are not helpful to you but perhaps others will find them useful since this discussion is in the "In My Traveller Universe" where I believe any version of Traveller can be discussed and even non canon discussion is welcome.

While it is a "In My Traveller Universe" forum and I believe that most of what I post is possible within canon, I certainly would like to know if something I say "breaks" canon.

Hmm, I had always thought of orbital space control and orbital customs falling under the starport authority, since that's where the ships were ending up.

You will have to clarify for me since I believe everything within the Imperium "falls under" the Imperium up to landing troops in a system that is breaking Imperial laws

What canon references do we have that speak to who's manning the customs craft and whether the local law level's being applied?

Yes, I'd like to know too because IMTU local officials can work with and ride along with Imperium officials. Sometimes it might even be one local worker who personally comes up to your ship to welcome you,and provide local info regarding trade restrictions "Do you have any questions? Enjoy your stay." Sometimes it might be a joint team with armed and armored locals right beside the Imperial inspectors and code enforcers on an Imperial customs vessel.

The way I see it, and again for me things can vary from place to place, but in many instances, both in orbit and at the star port, the Imperium works with the locals.


I'd like to give a couple possible situations.
Situation 1
a) What if there is no high port, and only a down port.
b) What if the system has laws against a certain thing and it is illegal to use, have and trade it there although it is not Illegal by Imperial standards. Lets say, combat drugs.
c) What if the system decides they don't even want such items to be transported within their airspace. The reason doesn't matter, but here is a good one: smugglers were making deliveries by air dropping the cargo out the airlock.

I think in most cases the Imperium is not going to enforce local laws within local air space when no Imperial law is broken. I'm pretty sure locals are allowed to enforce local laws within local air space.

Technically, if you are with me on the above, the locals could very well have the ability to stop and inspect (maybe ground at a military base instead of the Imperial port) or turn away a ship that tries to enter their air space. Do you think (does canon address this) it is possible/legal for locals to prevent a ship from even going to the star port since it is a downport?

Situation 2
Same as 1 but
a) The system has a high port too.
d) The system decides they don't want the combat drugs within the space (d limit) the Imperium allows them to enforce.

Shouldn't locals have the ability to stop and inspect and turn away a ship that tries to enter any and all areas that the Imperium allows them to control?

EDIT:
Is the Imperium going to interfere with the locals policies?
Even in cases where the locals are heavy handed and even deadly in regards to those that stray from their rules, is there any reason the Imperium would interfere - other than the well known generic "the Imperium is about maintaining trade". The Imperium is also about letting worlds do their own thing. Maybe the world gets yellow or amber zoned to warn the travelers if things are bad enough.

I apologize if this starts to go off topic but felt that it might help to look at a different picture of the role and authority the locals have and how the Imperium might or might not interfere. Then, what might this infer regarding the locals role with ship skippers and repossession.

 

[rancke]

I've deliberately ignored fake transponders because there's a whole slew of unanswered questions in connection with them. Where do you buy one? How much do they cost? What are the odds that a fake transponder gets detected? What are the odds that a suspected fake transponder gets found out? Etc., etc..

But a thought just occurred to me: What about legitimate transponder changes? We know from Book 8 that ships are registered to member worlds. It seems reasonable that owners can get the name of a ship changed (if, say, they just bought it and don't like the old name). What if some member worlds are willing to change the name of a ship for a fee (almost) no questions asked? Your would-be skipping captain would jump to such a world, arriving before his ship winds up on the wanted list (I don't think even a very accomodating world would re-register a ship that was already listed as stolen), pay a fee, and his ship is now named Driven Snow instead of Absconding Deadbeat. So when it arrives at a new world, the computers don't flag it because it's name isn't on the watchlist. The truth can still be found by examining the transponder's history, but now it requires someone to actually get suspicious and do something active. And if skip tracers track down the Absconding Deadbeat, they may prefer a private attempt at repossession to reporting the Driven Snow to the authorities, because if they do, it's the authorities that will take possession and reap the rewards.

I know this suggestion contradicts stuff that has been written about DEYO transponders, but then, DEYO transponders contradicted various CT bits (specifically the existence of fake transponders).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I've deliberately ignored fake transponders because there's a whole slew of unanswered questions in connection with them. Where do you buy one? How much do they cost? What are the odds that a fake transponder gets detected? What are the odds that a suspected fake transponder gets found out? Etc., etc..

But a thought just occurred to me: What about legitimate transponder changes? We know from Book 8 that ships are registered to member worlds. It seems reasonable that owners can get the name of a ship changed (if, say, they just bought it and don't like the old name). What if some member worlds are willing to change the name of a ship for a fee (almost) no questions asked? Your would-be skipping captain would jump to such a world, arriving before his ship winds up on the wanted list (I don't think even a very accomodating world would re-register a ship that was already listed as stolen), pay a fee, and his ship is now named Driven Snow instead of Absconding Deadbeat. So when it arrives at a new world, the computers don't flag it because it's name isn't on the watchlist. The truth can still be found by examining the transponder's history, but now it requires someone to actually get suspicious and do something active. And if skip tracers track down the Absconding Deadbeat, they may prefer a private attempt at repossession to reporting the Driven Snow to the authorities, because if they do, it's the authorities that will take possession and reap the rewards.

I know this suggestion contradicts stuff that has been written about DEYO transponders, but then, DEYO transponders contradicted various CT bits (specifically the existence of fake transponders).


Hans

I guess those planets will be known by the repos after a while, and become a seabed of corporate espionage from most important Banks. Good adventure stuff...

 

[aramis]

I What if some member worlds are willing to change the name of a ship for a fee (almost) no questions asked? Your would-be skipping captain would jump to such a world, arriving before his ship winds up on the wanted list (I don't think even a very accomodating world would re-register a ship that was already listed as stolen), pay a fee, and his ship is now named Driven Snow instead of Absconding Deadbeat.

Oh, there will be places that will gleefully (and expensively) reregister even ships on the hot list.

 

[Carlobrand]

I own nothing and know almost nothing of GURPS Traveller. I don't have the "canon" that others have (my CT days were prior to much of it coming out and we only picked and chose a few things from what came later. Now I'm mostly MgT.). I don't know if there are any rules for when one version of Traveller canon is not compatible with another. I'd think whatever came last, since it all goes through Mark?, would be the final word - not that people can't ignore it or state that they only use the items released for their version or whatever.

I don't think there are rules per se for mixing versions. It's more a question of hammering out differences to one's personal liking. Even CT has version conflicts - Book-2 verses Book-5 and their differing ship costs and specifications and even combat performance being infamous examples. GURPS offers an alternate universe where events happened differently - no assassination of Strephon, no civil war, a few details of earlier history that are curiously different. As it's an alternate universe, you can embrace pretty much any difference as being the result of an alternate universe with a different history and maybe ever-so-slightly different physical laws. I'm wondering if Mongoose did something similar or if they're running on the same Strephon-gonna-die-and-everything-goes-to-hell timeline.

However, some versions mix better than others, and sometimes only directionally. You can grandfather Book-2 ships into a Book-5 universe without making a mess of things. Bringing a Book-5 ship into the Book 2 universe, however - well, there just aren't any Book 2 rules on particle accelerators, meson guns, nuclear dampers and so forth. I don't know where Mongoose would lie on that spectrum.

... Sorry if my answers are not helpful to you but perhaps others will find them useful since this discussion is in the "In My Traveller Universe" where I believe any version of Traveller can be discussed and even non canon discussion is welcome.

I should probably be the one apologizing; the forum exists for all versions, not just the ones I'm familiar with. It's just that since I know zip about Mongoose other than what's mentioned here, my own comments really can't consider what might or might not be possible in a Mongoose universe.

I dunno, maybe I should change my plans and get some Mongoose stuff. The local used book store has a bit of Mongoose material cheap, and I've got some credit there.

...You will have to clarify for me since I believe everything within the Imperium "falls under" the Imperium up to landing troops in a system that is breaking Imperial laws

In CT, Imperial reach is pretty much just space and the starports, except for a few big no-no's like no psionics. So long as a planetary government's loyal, the Imperium keeps its nose pretty much completely out of planetary business - which gives us the interesting dynamic of the Imperium avoiding meddling for anything short of a violation of a handful of fundamental no-no's while private corporations meddle regularly for their own profit.

Yes, I'd like to know too because IMTU local officials can work with and ride along with Imperium officials. ...

I'd really like to get more feedback from folk on the subject. I'm thinking maybe in terms of the U.S. handling of the Medicaid/Medicare programs: It's a federal program, mostly federal funds, federal rules and so forth - but it's farmed out to the states to hand out the funding and police those rules. That means that the guy showing up to inspect the hospital or nursing home is a State employee (unless the hospital is certified through Joint Commission or some other private inspection service), but he's trained in Federal rules and applying those rules to the facility.

Ooh, that offers another alternative: that, in the case of those worlds where the world can't (or chooses not to) handle its own orbital, the Imperium could hire or engage a private company to provide that service - such as Oberlindes on Paya.

...a) What if there is no high port, and only a down port.

Then everybody likely knows it, and the down port uses its own boats to ferry people and stuff up and down if it wants the traffic, or you either don't go there with an unstreamlined ship or bring your own boats.

b) What if the system has laws against a certain thing and it is illegal to use, have and trade it there although it is not Illegal by Imperial standards. Lets say, combat drugs.

Pass through. You can't stop a ship from landing and refueling for its next leg because it has something you don't allow, but you can expect such stuff to be clearly documented in the manifest, you can require that he goes only to the starport and nowhere else, and of course you'll have inspectors at the starport extrality line making sure nothing illegal passes from there into your world.

c) What if the system decides they don't even want such items to be transported within their airspace. The reason doesn't matter, but here is a good one: smugglers were making deliveries by air dropping the cargo out the airlock.

Then the world had best provide a highport, or at least be prepared to provide escort from orbit to ground and back, 'cause I can't see you using that as an excuse to not provide refueling and servicing to ships plying the spaceways - unless of course that's the reason you have an X starport and a red-zone classification.

...Technically, if you are with me on the above, the locals could very well have the ability to stop and inspect (maybe ground at a military base instead of the Imperial port) or turn away a ship that tries to enter their air space. Do you think (does canon address this) it is possible/legal for locals to prevent a ship from even going to the star port since it is a downport?

Not without earning a red zone classification, not unless they provide some alternate way for ships to get fuel and service. Restrict to a highport, maybe. Travel to the downport under escort, maybe. Bar travel, when it could mean a ship is stranded in orbit without needed maintenance and when that ship is lawful with respect to Imperial authorities - no. Closing off access to Imperial territory, as represented by the starport, sounds like a thing the Imperium would frown heavily on.

... Maybe the world gets yellow or amber zoned to warn the travelers if things are bad enough...

That is in fact one canon reason for earning an amber zone.

 

[Carlobrand]

I've deliberately ignored fake transponders because there's a whole slew of unanswered questions in connection with them. ... But a thought just occurred to me: What about legitimate transponder changes? We know from Book 8 that ships are registered to member worlds. It seems reasonable that owners can get the name of a ship changed (if, say, they just bought it and don't like the old name). ...

I know this suggestion contradicts stuff that has been written about DEYO transponders, but then, DEYO transponders contradicted various CT bits (specifically the existence of fake transponders)...

What is DEYO?

Traveller Adventure offers us an example of a megacorporation altering a transponder on the player's ship so it appears to be owned by another megacorporation. Clearly both legitimate and illegitimate changes are available to the "right" people, so the danger you describe could be real: someone beats word of their naughtiness to a planet and adopts a new identity - legally or by crooked means. One could oblige a ship to wait in port a couple weeks while they were checked out, but time is money and companies will object.

On the "ripple" model, news of that change is going to go out - and eventually be received by folk who are hunting for the ship under its old name. They'll respond with an objection and an alert - which will likewise ripple outward, with a good chance that the ship under its new name will land someplace and then be queried about its new name and its old history. And, of course, the hunters will just begin hunting under the new name, this time with a record of the name change so they can formally tie the newly named ship to the old ship history. And if that ship tries to run a new name change soon after a recent name change, they're likely to draw some questions.