• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

First Impressions from TNE

North Sea oil rigs are about the closest real world example I can think of.

If the rig fails - as has happened - you die. Most of the people who go to work on them are just average joes.
 
I wouldn't call rig workers "average joes"... they tend to be a lot hardier than your average office worker. I don't think Joe Average would like to work on an oil rig much...

Maybe the crews of nuclear submarines that spend months and months in the sub is closer? But again, they're not "average joes" either.
 
My brother-in-law works on an oil rig - believe me when I say he is as average as the British demographic can produce ;)

He's been forced to go and work on the rigs due to a lack of any other shipbuilding type job on Tyneside :(

A lot of office workers I know would be much happier working somewhere in manufacturing or hands-on, but those jobs don't exist anymore.

Fast forward a few centuries to the oil rig being a drilling station on Ceres or whatever, and you'll have people who are economic migrants moving to such places to find work.

Cheap fusion power and artificial gravity provide environment modification tools that are beyond anything we have now.
 
There was, once upon a time, a marvellous live performance video of the Cyndi Lauper song "Money Changes Everything".

It says everything that _I_ think needs saying here.

William
 
The TNE universe is full of people who see news vids of all the former Hi-Pop graveyard worlds. It's not the 3rd I, with several centuries of stability, and it has couple of of Hi-pop worlds who just a couple of generations ago were fighting for their lives, like Baldur.

They're not going to find millions of colonists to go live in an asteroid belt any more, and it's clearly going to take quite a few centuries before the inhospitable systems that do have a few businesses operating in them to build back up to Hi-pop status. It's still a wild place, and until the subsectors are once again easily and well defended by a sizable Navy, giant space arcologies aren't going to happen.

Like any 'Industrial revolution', it is going to need to expand it's colonization of garden worlds and develop a stable agricultural base, before somebody else does it. Most of the population out there isn't 'high tech' any more, and won't be any time soon. Check out Yontez, and some others. The 'future' isn't here yet. It's, well, in the future ... The strategically important worlds in TNE are the 'garden' worlds for a long time coming.

The British Empire had long tours of duty because of the modes of travel and the times involved, more than any other reason, not to mention many soldiers and civil servants could do much better on their retirement pay in India or the Far East than back home; not too much different than today, where one can run across ex-pats in the most unexpected places in the East or South America. Even at that, I seriously doubt you can find many in the middle of the Sahara or Antartica, or floating around off the northern coasts of Alaska.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
What is there that could possibly attract millions or billions of people to live on an airless rock with low gravity and little in the way of resources? Or on an acidic hellhole with furnace-like temperatures? Especially when there are much more habitable worlds nearby? Traveller has crazy situations like a hellhole with billions of people sitting next to a garden world with thousands of people, that makes no sense whatsoever. I simply do not believe that people will be drawn to the uninhabitable worlds in large numbers - they're going to go for the more earth-like ones instead.
I agree with you that most of any TU's population will be concentrated on habitatible or semi-habitatible worlds; however, economical reasons (profitally-exploitable resources, for example) would maintain significant populations even on non-habitatible worlds.

And since habitatible worlds are quite probably rare IRL, terraformation would be VERY welcome - as it'll create additional habitatible worlds with no need for "domes" or "tents".
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
So what happens when the asteroid is mined out? ;)
Hope that their manufacturing industry can keep earning wealth - there's always a service based industry that can support an economy of millions (UK ;) )
More likely they can keep exploiting other planetoids within the system.
</font>[/QUOTE]That's why most planetoid mining is done by Rigs - these mammoth spacecraft dock with a planetoid, exploit it to the very end, and then undock from its remnants and moves to the next planetoid.
 
Originally posted by Eduardo:
They're not going to find millions of colonists to go live in an asteroid belt any more, and it's clearly going to take quite a few centuries before the inhospitable systems that do have a few businesses operating in them to build back up to Hi-pop status. It's still a wild place, and until the subsectors are once again easily and well defended by a sizable Navy, giant space arcologies aren't going to happen.
I agree with you to a degree - however, remember that interstellar shipping is VERY RARE in 1200 and alot of planets are going to have a demand for raw materials that might be rare or heavily-exploited on the MainWorld, while the old Imperial economy might have left the rest of the world's solar system far less heavily exploited as thus with obtainable resources. So what you can't get for cheap on the MainWorld (due to natural conditions and/or resource depletion) and can't get from other star-systems (due to nearly nonexistant interstellar commerce), you'll probably be able to get by belting; and non-starships are far easier to build than starships. Not giant arcologies or massive colonies, but alot of planetary mines, belt-mining small craft, solar-power sattelites (ideal for TL8 worlds with no fusion but with interplanetary starflight), gas-giant "wilcatting" craft and so on. In other words, "mining rigs", not "industrial metropolises".
 
Yes, but the thing is, if shipping is very rare, the manufacturing is going to move there, too; the costs of shipping bulk ores is much higher than shipping value added goods or at least refined or processed raw materials in the same cargo space. I'm not saying nobody will settle there, they'll rotate jus t as they do on oil rigs and pipeline jobs today; a considerable bonus pay, and perks like a week off for every three or four worked, may be using months instead of weeks.
 
Another thing to consider for a TNE setting.

The RC has a TL12 industrial base, which is one higher than the Vilani Imperium had when it was at the height of its power.
Both the first Imperium and the Terrans could terraform worlds on a timescale of centuries, so building artificial habitats shouldn't have been much of a problem.
 
In a TNE setting it's not even a matter of buiding the domes or arcologies etc as they're allready there in place, you merely need to fix them. Also, in a TNE setting all those people that died on an inhospitable world had stuff, their worldly possesions so to speak, and in most cases that stuff is just sitting where it was last used waiting to be shipped back to people who want it, and, who now don't have to manufacture it themselves. For example the population or Orriflamme is approx 800million people. Should they find a world where 8 Billion people died then there are more consumer good just sitting on said world than Orriflamme will need for the next decade. Result, they don't need to manufacture consumer goods.

Sure there are plenty of ifs, buts, and maybes in that scenario but it's possible and just one reason to set up a colony on an inhospitable world. In a TNE setting.
 
There has to be a reason for folks to not only go someplace, but for them to stay.

The US is littered with dead, and even today, dying towns. Simply waiting for the elder residents to pass away. The West is famous for its boom and bust ghost towns from the late 19th and early 20th century, and the Rail Town that basically followed the railroads as they pushed east and west. There are towns in the midwest dying today as the farming industry changes and moves away from the communities.

As soon as the local resource dried up, the towns vanished.

We in the US are blessed by an efficient transportation system that lets small amounts of people head out in to the wilds, "far away" from civilization, yet not be cut off from it. Yea, it may be 50 miles to nearest grocery store, but it's a "cheap drive" to get there and back. As energy prices rise, some folks may well be rethinking their remote settlements unless they have some modicum amount of self sufficiency.

Here in the West, another primary driver is simply water. But even that is not enough necessarily for folks to stay.

The oil workers may be average Joes, and they may have extended duty, but they do not Live there. They live at home, someplace else. They're paid for their hardship of extended deployments. They don't bring their families with them, and save for a curious boy, their families don't want to be their with them. The environs are very utilitarian.

But once a well head goes dry, boom, they're gone. They leave. Off to the next opportunity.

The remote, desolate areas of the planet have very small population densities, particularly by todays metropolitan standards, and in fact these remote populations are shrinking as many young people see the outside world, move away, and never look back. These populations will slowly die out, as the only thing keeping them there is culture and history, all of which changes with each generation.

It's easier to assemble widgets in a factory to provide for your family than walk out on the pack ice, rifle and spear in hand.

Circumstance no longer traps these people. It's no longer a major trip to better climes and cheaper resources.

To quote the ever lovable and sensitive Sam Kinison:
See this? This is SAND! You know what it's going to be 10 years from now? IT'S GOING TO BE SAND! You live in a f------ desert! Nothing grows here! Nothing's going to grow here! We have deserts in America, we just don't live in them, A------!
And he's right -- to a point. The local high desert is exploding as a bedroom community, driven by high housing prices in the valleys. Las Vegas is booming as well by being a ginormous magnet for capital, but actually having few resources. There are economic incentives for living in Las Vegas, and many folks in Southern California when they look at their options for a home being in the California desert versus the Nevada desert may well look at the housing prices and other economic drivers and say "Well, if I'm going to live in the desert, I may well not pay the taxes as well" and head of to Vegas.

California is a nice place to live because it's a nice place to live. Our deserts are mostly very loosly populated with a few small communities surrounding water spots, just like every other desert on the planet.

If you look at the layout of the major population centers, particularly historically across the northern hemisphere, you'll note that the cities are basically in places where it's comfortable to live. As my Dad says, why should I pay to heat or cool the outside when I can live someplace that's properly warm or cold. Witness the "Snow bunnies" that migrate from the NE to Florida every year.

So, there needs to be some driver of the economy for folks to stay. If an asteroid is tapped out of minerals, only external trade will keep it alive (whether through exploiting other asteroids, or whatever). The service industries are almost ALL locally based, and reliant on the local industrial base for capital. While some of you may drive out of your local area to see a dentist or doctor, most folks won't. The value doesn't necessarily outweigh the costs. And an asteroid better have a damn good doctor/lawyer/etc to make a very expensive spaceflight worthwhile.

So, yes, some folks will live in inhospitable environs. The pioneers will go and set up shop, and the services will follow. But once the capital dries up, the pioneers will move on, taking their families with them. And once they go, the service sector collapses readily behind, leaving nothing but an abandoned, lifeless rock with a locked starport.
 
That's something that Traveller doesn't handle well really (at least, pre-TNE it didn't) - the variability of populations. Before TNE, Traveller just seems to assume that things have stayed the same on planets for centuries. But you're right - of course populations will fluctuate - there'll always be disasters and hard years and resources running out and people moving on or dying. On habitable planets that sort of thing may be fairly survivable (unless it's something like a native disease) but there should be all sorts of examples in the OTU of failed colonies and collapsed societies, even without Virus to precipitate their fall.

Heck, I remember a scene from the cheesy but very fine movie "Battle Beyond The Stars", where the hero heads off to a 'mercenary planet' that - 50 years ago at least - was a Seething Hive Of Scum And Villainy (TM). But when he got there he found that all the pirates had been run out of the system years ago and all that was left was a 'ghost world' with one last straggler. It just reminded me of the sort of dynamic variability that was lacking in Traveller.

TNE and 1248 have made up for that bigtime though. Now, you're never quite sure what you're going to find or whether what you expect is still going to be there...
 
Comments about the Worlds and Travel Chapter - Part 4 (Exploration Section)

Survey data is atleast 80 years old in 1200 - which means that characters are in for more than a few surprises when visiting "new" worlds.

Again, the problem I have with the TNE "cannonical" collapse, as described once more on p.204, is the uniformity of severe destruction of everything - too many TL4 post-appocalyptic agricultural TEDs around for my taste.

The survey rules seem good and quite simple - 1D6 days for a detailed astronomical survey of a star-system from up to a parsec away (using EMS - electromagnetic radiation sensors, I presume?), 1D6 more days for a full astronomical survey from within a system (using EMS and Densiometer), 1D6 hours per world size for an orbital survey, and 1D20 hours per world size for close-orbit (upper attmosphere) survey. The survey techniques are detailed for flavor (and are quite interesting to read and use) but thankfully there are no overcomplex rules about them.

On the surface there are several surveys possible, such as mineral surveys, biological surveys, archeology and inhabitant surveys. Again, no complex rules (though I'd like to see a Prospecting task for mineral surveys), but only a general description of the time required.
 
Comments about the Worlds and Travel Chapter - Part 5 (Animals section)

Animals are first discussed as flavour-tools (i.e. used to describe a realistic planetary environment) and as plot tools (used to convey an atmosphere, e.g. animals getting agitated by an approaching storm, or to initiate an encounter, e.g. a guard dog barking at an approaching enemy), which is a very good thing - some referees have to be reminded that animals are not only foes encountered in random encounters, but part of the environment that characters explore.

The riding rules (p.207) are quite good, too - there is a maximum safe speed (20m/turn +1m per point of Riding Skill) below which no task-throw is needed to ride; riding at full gallop requires a task throw once per turn to avoid falling off the mount (which seems OK to me in combat; out of combat I'd roll once per hour or even day).

Animals attack as per TNE melee combat (which will, undoubtebly, be detailed later, with their attack "Assets", thankfully, replaced by a simple precalculated number that has to be rolled on 1D20 in order for the animal to hit in combat with no need for difficulty multiplications.

This is followed by a detailed description (both in ecological and game-mechanic terms) of 12 animal weapons, from acid to claws to trample-attacks.

Animals also have hit-points, which look similar to Shadowrun condition monitors: you have to "rows" or hit-points, the first one for slight wounds, and the second one - used when the first is filled off - is for serious wounds; when both are filled off, the animal is critically wounded and dies in some time unless treated.

Animals also have attack/flee chances ("morale" in TNE terms) similar in concept to the ones in CT-LBB3 but using 1D20 rather than 2D6.

The concepts behind the animal encounter tables seem to be similar to the ones in CT-LBB3: animals are classified by their ecological role, which is a good idea as it allows a wide variety of lifeforms without resirting to Earth-based comparisons.

The animal tables themselves are quite sismilar to their CT-LBB3 counterparts, too.
 
Comments about the Worlds and Travel Chapter - Part 6 (Space Travel section)

The description of Jump drives on p.218 has a certain event Horizon pseudo-hard-science feel to it, being "mathematically similar to an artificially-created wormhole" and having things such as "topology" in its description; the drive also "compresses" J-Space, with higher-rated drives achieving higher levels of "compression". A nitpick: the terms "J-Space" and "N-Space" appear here instead of the older (and longer) "Normal Space" and "Jump Space".

Obviously, the old shipping regulations don't work outside the Regency, which means that in the RC and Wilds you'll rarely find High Passage but will routinely have Steerage Passage (travelling in empty space in the cargo bay and bringing your own food along, and no attention from the crew; Cr2,500) available.

Similarly to MT, reviving a Low Passenger requires a task-throw (Difficult, using the Medical skill); failure causes injury, catastrophic failure causes death.

Predictably, CT-era travel-practices (such as TAS, mail-contracts and ship mortgage-payment) still exist in TNE's Regency and nearly nowhere else


Bank financing and subsidies work similar to the CT ones, but are probably mostly confined to the Regency. In the rest of the universe, the government owns most ships but leases some of them out to enterprising individuals in order to foster renewed interstellar trade; the government also enters into "partnership" with such investers but reserves controlling stock in each ship.

Ship operating expenses are straight out of CT-LBB2, though with different maintainance rules.

Passage prices are, unfortunately, still fixed (i.e. cost-per-jump rather than cost-per-parsec), even outside the Regency.

Trade customs (delivery, shuttle services, charters) are a direct copy-N-paste from CT-LBB1.

The interplanetary travel rules look quite complex at a first glance - fuel consumption is probably much higher than in CT (drives are no longer grav/reactionless, it seems) and long constant acceleration is not as easy.

Starship operation procedures seem similar to the MT ones - very detailed, and with several task-throws to get from planetary surface to a jump.
 
Comments about the Worlds and Travel Chapter - Part 6 (Trade and Commerce section)

This section opens up with a two-page discussion of TNE interstellar economy, along with Striker-style currency exchange rules.

Worlds support themselves in TNE; that is very understandable - due to the near lack of interstellar commerce - though I think that interplanetary commerce and industry would be far heavier in TNE than in the CT-era, as interplanetary work in TL7-8, and could provide raw materials that do not exist, or are expensive to produce, on the mainworld.

It is strange to see that the Imperial credit is used outside of the Regency, but I'd rather make it be called "Imperial Credit" and be issued by local polities - such as the RC or the Hub Worlds. There is simply no unified Imperial economy to back a unified Credit value, so it'll probably be similar to both the USA and Canada calling their currency "Dollar" but actually having different currency values.

I'd think very carefully before incorporating difference currency exchange rates per world: while realistic, these mean that you have to modify ALL prices for EACH AND EVERY WORLD. Ofcourse, it depends on the amount of money the characters spend on each world, and would be OK for most non-Merchant adventure, but playing Merchants would be a headache when each planetary currency has a different in-game exchange value.

The trade system itself is basically Merchant Prince (CT-LBB7) with a few modifications, such as good types being incorporated into the system (which generates the name of the good and some of its characteristics such as fragility, but does not have an influence of the specific goods on their prices).
 
Good synopses. You'll find more survey stuff when you get around to World Tamers, and more detailed world creation stuff in the back of that, also.

As for the 'Imperial Credit', you have it right on the convenience of keeping the same name for what is essentially a 'money of account', and not actual specie, much as the 'Pound' was for most of medieval and modern times in northwestern Europe, under various names.

I think either the Survival Margin or the Hard Times sourcebooks give Credits in terms of silver, gold, and copper, by weight, and of course barter is always useful in the 'Wilds'.
 
Employee 2-4601, & Eduardo

I found the the TNE-table very helpful in establishing our Wilds economy (ies) over in our T20/ 1248 Refts-Wildside campaign.


I'd think very carefully before incorporating difference currency exchange rates per world: while realistic, these mean that you have to modify ALL prices for EACH AND EVERY WORLD. Ofcourse, it depends on the amount of money the characters spend on each world, and would be OK for most non-Merchant adventure, but playing Merchants would be a headache when each planetary currency has a different in-game exchange value.

Correct, sir. :D And it was some work, but in the three Wilds subsectors (Reft L, O, & P) where our players are currently mucking about in, there are less than 58 worlds, and only a few worlds with starports remaining (1x B-class at TL-8; 5x C-class = 1x at TL-9; 1x at Tl-8, 2x at TL-7, 2x at TL-6; 3x D-class with 1x each at TL-7, TL-6, & TL-5.) I found it added a layer of depth and detail the player's appreciated instead of generic "credits", and offered them RP-challenges intead of die-rolling off the side for every bit of their merchanting side issues/ excursions.

Other GM's, true, may opt out of this level of crunchy detailing.. as always, good review dude!

Game On!
 
Comments about the Worlds and Travel Chapter - Part 7 (Equipment Maintenance and Repair section)

Maintenance rules are quite complex (though interesting) in TNE. Every important item has a "wear value" of 1 to 10; used goods' prices are determined by dividing their full price by their wear value. Breakdown is checked for once per 8-hour period for short-duration equipment (e.g. ground vejicles) or once per 24 hours for long-duration equipment (e.g. starships) by rolling 1D10; the vehicle suffers a potential breakdown on a roll of Wear Value or less; if the equipment was maintained on the proper time, the character who performed the last maintainance rolls a task throw to attempt to avoid actual breakdown; overwise a breakdown occurs. Sounds a bit complex: I mean, why roll EVERY DAY for your ship to break down even in a Jump? I'd roll ONCE for the whole jump! Obviously, spending more time in maintainance reduces the chance for a breakdown (provides a DM on the 1D10 roll). The wear value also increases by one point per 10 actual breakdowns, but could be decreased by "rebuilding" the component at the cost of 5% of the object's full price per wear value point.

Breakdowns have several levels of severity, determined by rolling 1D10 ANOTHER TIME when a breakdown actually occures; a roll of wear value or less is a major breakdown and otherwise a minor one. Then there is ANOTHER 1D10 roll to determine if spare parts must be used for the repairs. Then there are rules for cannibalizing or fabricating spare parts. The cannibalization rules on p.243 are actually useful for another purpose: salvage and tech-looting.

This is followed by rules for repairing battle-damage, which is also detailed in terms of "minor damage", "major damage" and "destroyed".

All in all, the maintenance and repair rules are very simulationist, far more so than even Striker, and I would advise anyone using the TNE rule system to use the maintenance and repair rules for VERY few objects in the game world, namely the PCs' main vehicle (roll once per day of travel) and the PCs' starship (roll once per jump-cycle) in order to keep the game flowing rather than wasting time on over-accounting.
 
Back
Top