Fixing the Economics

[Fox's Master]

Spec trade (or illegal trade) = high yield

As I've mentioned earlier, if you lower the prices for ship design/construction by 90-95%, all of the other pricing schemes work well vis-a-vis monthly salaries, maintenance costs, and other expenditures. I want the players/characters to work for their pay, but not work so hard that it becomes a chore.

FM

 

[aramis]

As I've mentioned earlier, if you lower the prices for ship design/construction by 90-95%, all of the other pricing schemes work well vis-a-vis monthly salaries, maintenance costs, and other expenditures. I want the players/characters to work for their pay, but not work so hard that it becomes a chore.

FM

If you lower the costs by 90%, you also break the prices of metal and labor.A scoutship hull is about 50 metric tons of high tech steel... call it 5 Td at KCr75 per Td as a minimum as it's machined parts (see p165 of the MGT CRB)... KCr225. Not counting assembly labor, markup, etc. The steel for a ship is about 10% of the cost for the hull, so that sounds about right for the scoutship. (the rest is the labor, yard assembly equipment, etc)

 

[aramis]

I've run the numbers for sublight, and after rounding, etc,...

Due to a discussion with a fellow GM, I did some revision. I redid the rounding to round up, rather than off, and rounding is to the next Cr5. This changed slightly the equivalences for a given acceleration. I've also included how far one can get and not cost as much as jumping. It's pretty far.

Drive Rating ______ 1G ______ 2G ______ 3G _______ 4G _______ 5G _______ 6G ______ J1*
Charged Ton Cost __ 40 ______ 65 ______ 95 ______ 175 ______ 275 ______ 705 _____ 700.00
Cost, HP SO ______ 575 _____ 725 _____ 900 ____ 1,325 ____ 1,925 ____ 3,850 ___ 7,500.00
Cost, MP SO ______ 495 _____ 625 _____ 780 ____ 1,155 ____ 1,680 ____ 3,375 ___ 4,300.00
Cost, HP DO ______ 395 _____ 485 _____ 590 ______ 845 ____ 1,205 ____ 2,360 ___ 9,000.00
Cost, MP DO ______ 315 _____ 385 _____ 470 ______ 675 ______ 960 ____ 1,885 ___ 5,600.00

Days, Cargo _______ 17.50 ___ 10.80 ____ 7.40 _____ 4 ________ 2.50 _____ 1 _______ 7
Days, HPSO ________ 13.00 ___ 10.30 ____ 8.30 _____ 5.70 _____ 3.90 _____ 1.90 ____ 7
Days, MPSO _________ 8.70 ____ 6.90 ____ 5.50 _____ 3.70 _____ 2.60 _____ 1.30 ____ 7
Days, HPDO ________ 22.80 ___ 18.60 ___ 15.30 ____ 10.70 _____ 7.50 _____ 3.80 ____ 7
Days, MPDO ________ 17.80 ___ 14.50 ___ 11.90 _____ 8.30 _____ 5.80 _____ 3 _______ 7

AU, Cargo _________ 38.20 ___ 29.10 ____ 20.49 ____ 7.98 _____ 3.90 _____ 0.75
AU, HPSO __________ 21.08 ___ 26.47 ____ 25.78 ___ 16.21 _____ 9.49 _____ 2.70
AU, MPSO ___________ 9.44 ___ 11.88 ____ 11.32 ____ 6.83 _____ 4.22 _____ 1.26
AU, HPDO __________ 64.85 ___ 86.32 ____ 87.61 ___ 57.13 ____ 35.09 ____ 10.81
AU, MPSO __________ 39.53 ___ 52.46 ____ 53.00 ___ 34.38 ____ 20.98 _____ 6.74


* Jump price shown is per jump (6-8 days duration), not per day.
This is purely price equivalent, not speed equivalent, calculation.
For distance comparison, the AU covered by a given rate:

Drive Rating ______ 1G ______ 2G ______ 3G _______ 4G _______ 5G _______ 6G
AU, 1 day __________ 0.12 ____ 0.25 ____ 0.37 _____ 0.50 _____ 0.62 _____ 0.75
AU, 2 day __________ 0.50 ____ 1.00 ____ 1.50 _____ 2.00 _____ 2.49 _____ 2.99
AU, 3 day __________ 1.12 ____ 2.25 ____ 3.37 _____ 4.49 _____ 5.61 _____ 6.74
AU, 4 day __________ 2.00 ____ 3.99 ____ 5.99 _____ 7.98 _____ 9.98 ____ 11.98
AU, 5 day __________ 3.12 ____ 6.24 ____ 9.36 ____ 12.47 ____ 15.59 ____ 18.71
AU, 6 day __________ 4.49 ____ 8.98 ___ 13.47 ____ 17.96 ____ 22.45 ____ 26.95
AU, 7 day __________ 6.11 ___ 12.23 ___ 18.34 ____ 24.45 ____ 30.56 ____ 36.68
AU, 8 day __________ 7.98 ___ 15.97 ___ 23.95 ____ 31.94 ____ 39.92 ____ 47.90

This allows figuring out prices for given distances in AU easily.

 

[Kilgs]

Aramis... I have no doubt you speak Truth but you forgot the most important part of analysis.

A Summary (in dumbie english)

 

[aramis]

Sorry... I worked out the sublight travel costs, using the same methodology as I had for jump. Same assumption of 50% down time.

Top section is CHarged Costs by rating, with J1 for comparison (as presented in the top post). It's in Credits per day by G's of ship.

The second section is how many days to cost as much as J1.

The third is AU limit for the same or lesser cost as J1

The fourth table is AU covered for a given speed and time (in days).

Per Ton: per ton-displacement of cargo
MP: Mid Passage
HP: High Passage
SO: Single Occupancy
DO: Double Occupancy


Using it
I want to go from Earth to Mars, and Mars is 90° Ahead of earth. That puts it roughly 1.7 AU.

I can look at the fourth table and find the following options:
1G: 4 days
2G: 3 days
3G: 3 days (just over 2, but the table's calibrated in whole days)
4G+: 2 Days

I want to travel by High Passage single occupancy...
If I go at 1G, that's 4 days at Cr575 per day. I'll add a day for port to port. Cr2875, port to port, high passage.

2G is 3 days at Cr725 per day, and it's still enough to add a 4th for port to port. Cr2900. Hm. An extra Cr25 for a day less.

3G is 900 a day. Now, since it was barely over 2 days, I'll absorb the port to port in the time... Cr2700 port to port. (This is, actually, the cheap way...) If, however, the skipper has delays, it might be Cr3600... Still, pretty cheap

4G is pricier Cr1325 per day. 3 days (2 for the trip, and a day for port-to-port). Cr3975. Still, not bad. 5G and 6 G save a few hours... but rack the hourly cost up.

So I can get to Mars and spend a few days, and come back, costing me about KCr8 for high passage, and spend whatever I have left on touristing.

If I'm on business, tho, and my time is precious, I grab a 4G run.

 

[aramis]

One other comment. Until last week, I'd Never done the CT Book 2 numbers; I always used HG. Bk2 numbers are very different from HG.
Bk2 ships can actually make a profit with fixed (per jump) costs through J3, albeit a sliver of one on J3.

 

[aramis]

One other big broken bit:
You can replace a level 1 steward (4 HP or 10 pass) with 2 tons of of luxuries... this frees up 2 tons of cargo or half a stateroom...
And the steward is Cr4125/mo, counting LS, Salary, and payment share
Cr2000 Salary
Cr2000 LS
Cr2083 Payment Share on Stateroom
__Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom

The 2 Ton of luxuries is Cr200,000, for about Cr850/mo
Cr833 Payment share
_Cr17 Maintenance Share
But it also saves you Cr 2000/mo or more by adding cargo space...

 

[Carlobrand]

How do we go about nominating this for the reference section?

 

[HG_B]

How do we go about nominating this for the reference section?

2nd'ed

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm a bit dense. I just don't get where all the numbers come from. I don't see any details of the expenses or revenues or ship designs to analyze. I can only comment on what was said and not the figures.

The summary

He's saying that traders don't get enough money for shipping freight and passengers to meet expenses, except (perhaps) for Jump-1 ships. Others go broke, fast.

but in the original post

None are fitted for passengers

Profit is slim; it can be raised by more down payment, reducing crew salaries to profit shares, having better stewards, or reducing fuel costs from refined to unrefined.

Slim profit without passengers or speculative cargo - sounds to me like that says operating these ships as anything but freight only could be quite profitable. Wouldn't it be odd for a trader to not have any passengers? Would it not be odd for a trader to not have a broker as one of the crew and do some quite lucrative speculative trading?

And for J1 vs longer jump capable ships I see a few issues. J2+ ships CAN do more than J1, they don't have to. They can still take on a J1 trade route. Many revenues are optimal for one parsec, such as freight and low berths. The tables don't take into consideration distance when determining availability. It's just "cargo is available to destination". So if you have a J3 ship should a smart business person check for cargo, mail, and passenger availability for all the possible destinations, including J1, J2, and J3, and then decide, based on profitability, where the best destination is?

If there is a flaw in the design it is that freight pricing implies, to me, it is not in a rush. It doesn't pay a premium for getting there faster yet it has no mechanism to take multiple jumps to reach a destination, always assuming it is going on a ship that can take it there in one jump. Perhaps this is an economic obvious, that multiple jumps would not be cost effective. But on a trade route with several J1 and J2 worlds, what reason is there for a trader to take the long jump? For freight, 200cr per ton per parsec less the fuel cost per ton of ship per parsec, refined being 50cr? So 150cr per ton per extra parsec traveled in one jump? Again, I'm dense, so not sure on these numbers. Also, the rules seam to ignore that cargo may be going a long distance, beyond 6 parsecs.

 

[HG_B]

The summary but in the original postSlim profit without passengers or speculative cargo - sounds to me like that says operating these ships as anything but freight only could be quite profitable.

Passengers in MgT are less profitable per ton than freight.

 

[aramis]

I work out the passage costs by figuring out the payment and maintenance cost shares for the passenger stateroom, and the share of a steward (if needed) and the steward's stateroom, and then adding the costs of the cargo tonnage lost to the staterooms.

It allows me to run the spreadsheet once instead of 5 times.

Note that Mongoose totally F*ed up the passage prices.
Here's what Mongoose says people pay (TMB p 160):

Parsecs Travelled	High	Middle	Low Passage	Cargo, 1Td
1	Cr6,000	Cr3,000	Cr1,000	Cr1,000
2	Cr12,000	Cr6,000	Cr1,200	Cr1,200
3	Cr20,000	Cr10,000	Cr1,400	Cr1,400
4	Cr30,000	Cr15,000	Cr1,600	Cr1,600
5	Cr40,000	Cr20,000	Cr1,800	Cr1,800
6	Cr50,000	Cr25,000	Cr2,000	Cr2,000

(Note that Even GTFT F*s up the numbers, but in a different way; GTFT charges flat per parsec, but due to increasing costs and diminishing space, longer ranged travel cannot be charged at flat rate per parsec, either. Not having worked out the GT designs, I can't say just how badly it's F*ed up...)

 

[CosmicGamer]

Passengers in MgT are less profitable per ton than freight.

huh? Please explain. On the extreme, a J6 ship gets 50,000 for a high passenger.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Note that Mongoose totally F*ed up the passage prices.

Please explain?

 

[atpollard]

One other big broken bit:
You can replace a level 1 steward (4 HP or 10 pass) with 2 tons of of luxuries... this frees up 2 tons of cargo or half a stateroom...
And the steward is Cr4125/mo, counting LS, Salary, and payment share
Cr2000 Salary
Cr2000 LS
Cr2083 Payment Share on Stateroom
__Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom

The 2 Ton of luxuries is Cr200,000, for about Cr850/mo
Cr833 Payment share
_Cr17 Maintenance Share
But it also saves you Cr 2000/mo or more by adding cargo space...

2000 + 2000 + 2083 + 42 = 6125 > 4125
So how much does a Steward cost?
(I suspect a simple typo.)

 

[HG_B]

huh? Please explain.

Do the math for a typical Tramp ship.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Do the math for a typical Tramp ship.

Huh? So someone made a claim without doing the math so they can't explain it?

 

[HG_B]

Huh? So someone made a claim without doing the math so they can't explain it?

aramis posted ALL the math. Didn't you READ it?

 

[atpollard]

huh? Please explain. On the extreme, a J6 ship gets 50,000 for a high passenger.

I'll try to explain it.
If you design Jump 6 freight only ships of 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800 and 2000 dTons and calculate the cost of operating the ship per ton of cargo space, you will discover that the ships cost between 44,323.65 and 111,265.74 credits per dTon of cargo space to operate at J6.

Mongoose Traveller allows these ships to charge 2000 credits per dTon of cargo carried. So the ship will LOOSE between 42,323.65 and 109,265.74 credits on each dTon of cargo that it carries.

Mongoose Traveller will allow these J6 ships to carry a High Passage Passenger at 50,000 credits per trip. However, we must replace 4 dTons of cargo space with 1 stateroom, and set aside 1 dTon of cargo space for their luggage. So each High Passage replaces 5 dTons of cargo. From the original operating costs, we know that our J6 ships will cost between 44,323.65 and 111,265.74 credits per dTon of cargo space to operate at J6. So the 5 dTons of space needed for each High Passage will cost 221,620.55 to 556,328.70 credits per jump, but the passenger will only pay 50,000 credits ... the ship will loose money on every high passage it sells.

I selected J6 because the numbers are so obvious, but all of the other J2 to J5 ships will loose money too, and they will loose more money on a high passage than they will loose using that space to ship cargo.

That is how it is broken.

 

[cuTTer]

That is how it is broken.

Hilariously broken. Did Aramis ever post the breakdown in MongPub's forum? I'd be fascinated to know their response.