Hilariously broken. Did Aramis ever post the breakdown in MongPub's forum? I'd be fascinated to know their response.
No. Well, not since they published the core rulebook. I did run the numbers based upon draft 3.0. They ignored that one.
Hilariously broken. Did Aramis ever post the breakdown in MongPub's forum? I'd be fascinated to know their response.
2000 + 2000 + 2083 + 42 = 6125 > 4125
So how much does a Steward cost?
(I suspect a simple typo.)
Item | Cr/Mo | Notes |
Salary | Cr2000 | — |
Life Support | Cr4000 | Cr2000/2 week trip x 2 trips |
Stateroom Mortgage | Cr2083 | Cr500000/240 |
StateroomMaintenance | Cr500 | Cr500000/1000 |
| ||
Total, SO | [ Cr8583 | Not counting 4 tons cargo space lost to the SR |
Item | Cr/Mo | Notes |
Salary | Cr2000 | — |
Life Support | Cr3000 | Cr1500/2 week trip x 2 trips |
Stateroom Mortgage | Cr1042 | (Cr500000/240)/2 |
StateroomMaintenance | Cr250 | (Cr500000/1000)/2 |
| ||
Total, DO | Cr6292 | Not counting 2 tons cargo space lost to the half SR |
2000 + 2000 + 2083 + 42 = 6125 > 4125One other big broken bit:
You can replace a level 1 steward (4 HP or 10 pass) with 2 tons of of luxuries... this frees up 2 tons of cargo or half a stateroom...
And the steward is Cr4125/mo, counting LS, Salary, and payment share
Cr2000 Salary
Cr2000 LS
Cr2083 Payment Share on Stateroom
__Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom
The 2 Ton of luxuries is Cr200,000, for about Cr850/mo
Cr833 Payment share
_Cr17 Maintenance Share
But it also saves you Cr 2000/mo or more by adding cargo space...
So how much does a Steward cost?
(I suspect a simple typo.)
So where does the 4125 credit figure in the first post come from?you suspect quite wrongly.
The steward costs
Item Cr/MoNotes Salary Cr2000— Life Support Cr4000Cr2000/2 week trip x 2 trips Stateroom Mortgage Cr2083Cr500000/240 StateroomMaintenance Cr500Cr500000/1000 Total, SO [ Cr8583Not counting 4 tons cargo space lost to the SR
ANd for double occupancy stewards (not allowed for commercial ships per the rules):
Item Cr/MoNotes Salary Cr2000— Life Support Cr3000Cr1500/2 week trip x 2 trips Stateroom Mortgage Cr1042(Cr500000/240)/2 StateroomMaintenance Cr250(Cr500000/1000)/2 Total, DO Cr6292Not counting 2 tons cargo space lost to the half SR
Note that in MGT, you need a steward per 10 mid passengers and per 2 high passengers, quite unlike ANY other edition.
Mongoose doesn't allow double occupancy staterooms for commercial ships... so the cost of a passenger is a stateroom plus a fraction of a steward.
The cost for a passenger is, at a minimum, 4 tons of cargo lost plus his LS, plus the maintenance share. The minimum cost per ton of cargo possible under the TMB rules is Cr538 per payload ton... which translates to Cr2152. Add the Cr2000 for his life support. And the 250 for maintenance on the stateroom. A mid passenger is thus at least Cr4402 for J1, but you only get paid Cr3000.
Absolute minimum for J2 is Cr4200 from lost tonnage, instead of the 2152, a difference of Cr2048; the increased payout of KCr6 would cover that, but you still need to add for the steward.
Both of these get worse when you add the Cr1042 for the stateroom from a "standard mortgage" of 20% down... (which is half the monthly cost).
So where does the 4125 credit figure in the first post come from?
The numbers presented below it add up to 6125.
Neither 4,125 nor 6,125 appear anywhere in your response (the second quoted post).
I am not debating your conclusions, I am just having trouble following the math in the top quoted post.
I did read the post I quoted and questioned. The entire post was simply "Passengers in MgT are less profitable per ton than freight." In another post he SAYSaramis posted ALL the math. Didn't you READ it?
That sounds good, but I did not see the math in that post. Perhaps it was in a different, earlier post? Please provide a reference to it. I also asked him to explain and in a later post he saysI work out the passage costs by figuring out the payment and maintenance cost shares for the passenger stateroom, and the share of a steward (if needed) and the steward's stateroom, and then adding the costs of the cargo tonnage lost to the staterooms.
But I see some issues like:The minimum cost per ton of cargo possible under the TMB rules is Cr538 per payload ton... which translates to Cr2152. Add the Cr2000 for his life support. And the 250 for maintenance on the stateroom. A mid passenger is thus at least Cr4402 for J1, but you only get paid Cr3000.
Not sure how the figures of Cr538 per payload ton and 44,323.65 and 111,265.74 credits per dTon of cargo space are determined, but it is quite a difference, no?If you design Jump 6 freight only ships of 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800 and 2000 dTons and calculate the cost of operating the ship per ton of cargo space, you will discover that the ships cost between 44,323.65 and 111,265.74 credits per dTon of cargo space to operate at J6.
Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom here but 250 for maintenance in the other post? 2083 Payment Share on Stateroom? Things don't match up for me.And the steward is Cr4125/mo, counting LS, Salary, and payment share
Cr2000 Salary
Cr2000 LS
Cr2083 Payment Share on Stateroom
__Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom
I did read the post I quoted and questioned. The entire post was simply "Passengers in MgT are less profitable per ton than freight." In another post he SAYSThat sounds good, but I did not see the math in that post. Perhaps it was in a different, earlier post? Please provide a reference to it. I also asked him to explain and in a later post he saysBut I see some issues like:
Does "per payload ton" mean per a 2 week jump run or per month cost?
2000 is for life support of the stewards stateroom for one month
3000 is for one passenger for one jump run, aprox 2 weeks
So should we
A) Double that 3000 (mid passenger income per 2 week jump run) to 6000 and it's > than the 4402 figure, if 4402 was a monthly calculation?
or
B) 1/2 the 2000 (monthly life support cost) to 1000 and get 3402 instead of 4402 if it is a per 2 week jump run calculation?
Next, some of the other costs related to the steward, such as life support, maintenance and mortgage costs of the stewards stateroom, I believe should be spread across multiple passengers and not just one. The number of passengers to spread this out would vary based on the skill level of the steward and the number of passengers rolled up as being available. So if we have one passenger, can't/shouldn't we look at the other end? In the case of mid passage, to keep with aramis' quoted example, and a steward of just level 1, this would be 10 middle passengers to spread the costs between.
Lets assume it's B above, a per 2 week jump calculation, since A above appears profitable already.
If we average steward cost out between 10 mid passengers I get:
1000 (1/2 off 2000 for life support for one steward stateroom for one 2 week jump trade run)
+250 (?figure from aramis for maintenance on the stewards stateroom for one 2 week jump trade run?)
=1250
1250 / 10 (spread cost out between 10 mid passengers)
= 125
125 + 2152 (aramis' figure from earlier for "cost per ton of cargo" x4 for a 4dt stateroom. I'm not sure what went into coming up with this figure. Crew costs? Fuel costs? I'm not sure or if it is per 2 week jump run or monthly.)
= 2277
In the above quoted post, I believe this was just for the steward, we still need the life support, maintenance, and other costs of the actual passenger stateroom, the stewards salary, and so on. Still not ALL the math.
Could I do it myself? Yes. I don't find all the math enjoyable, I probably will miss things and make mistakes. People posting summaries and some math must have done all this? Why should I redo their work? Like when I was in school, a long long long long time ago. Show your work if you want full credit.
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I just don't see, or understand the math behind the summaries and statements. Perhaps it is all there in bits and pieces spread between numerous posts. In places there is possible mixing of monthly and per 2 week jump figures. There is the use of specific examples which may be one end of a broad range of possibilities (like putting all the expenses on one passenger instead of spreading them across multiple passengers) and in others places I see averaging (#1): such as inefficient 200 ton Jump 6's with various sizes up to 2000dt? There are discrepancies between posts (#2). My math is not the best and I have no psychic abilities to determine what someones figures represent. I can barely follow along in one posting let alone if it's spread between the verbiage and actual math of numerous posts which need to be able to pieced together. I'd like to see it detailed in one place. Is that too much to ask?
(#1)Thank you atpollard for trying to explainNot sure how the figures of Cr538 per payload ton and 44,323.65 and 111,265.74 credits per dTon of cargo space are determined, but it is quite a difference, no?
(#2)Cr42 Maintenance on Stateroom here but 250 for maintenance in the other post? 2083 Payment Share on Stateroom? Things don't match up for me.
Where is the spreadsheet? I saw mention of it but no link.All the work is in the spreadsheet.
That figure would be for a year. I believe this should be Cr42 Cr500000/12000StateroomMaintenance Cr500 Cr500000/1000
No. Well, not since they published the core rulebook. I did run the numbers based upon draft 3.0. They ignored that one.
Passanger | Cost per month | |
Stateroom | 500,000 | |
Motgage | 2084 | 1/240th |
Maintenance | 42 | 1/12000 |
Life support | 2000 | |
Total | 4126 |
Steward costs | Cost per month | |
Salary | 2000 | |
Stateroom | 500,000 | |
Motgage | 2084 | 1/240th |
Maintenance | 42 | 1/12000 |
Life support | 2000 | |
Total | 6126 |
PSC | SC | P | Cost per mo | Mid | High | Mid | High |
4126 | 6126 | 1 | 10,252 | 6000 | 12000 | (532) | 219 |
4126 | 6126 | 2 | 14,348 | 12000 | 24000 | (198) | 802 |
4126 | 6126 | 3 | 18,504 | 18000 | 36000 | (32) | 1,094 |
4126 | 6126 | 4 | 22,756 | 24000 | 48000 | 69 | 1,269 |
4126 | 6126 | 5 | 26,756 | 30000 | 60000 | 135 | 1,385 |
4126 | 6126 | 6 | 30,882 | 36000 | 72000 | 183 | 1,469 |
4126 | 6126 | 7 | 35,008 | 42000 | 84000 | 219 | 1,531 |
4126 | 6126 | 8 | 39,134 | 48000 | 96000 | 246 | 1,580 |
4126 | 6126 | 9 | 43,260 | 54000 | 108000 | 269 | 1,619 |
4126 | 6126 | 10 | 47,386 | 60000 | 120000 | 287 | 1,650 |
PSC | SC | P | Cost per mo | Mid | High | Mid | High |
4126 | 6126 | 1 | 10,252 | 12000 | 24000 | 750 | 1719 |
4126 | 6126 | 2 | 14,348 | 24000 | 48000 | 1000 | 2802 |
4126 | 6126 | 3 | 18,504 | 36000 | 72000 | 1125 | 3344 |
4126 | 6126 | 4 | 22,756 | 48000 | 96000 | 1200 | 3669 |
4126 | 6126 | 5 | 26,756 | 60000 | 120000 | 1250 | 3885 |
4126 | 6126 | 6 | 30,882 | 72000 | 144000 | 1286 | 4040 |
4126 | 6126 | 7 | 35,008 | 84000 | 168000 | 1313 | 4156 |
4126 | 6126 | 8 | 39,134 | 96000 | 192000 | 1333 | 4246 |
4126 | 6126 | 9 | 43,260 | 108000 | 216000 | 1350 | 4319 |
4126 | 6126 | 10 | 47,386 | 120000 | 240000 | 1364 | 4378 |
For the summary that follows,Do the math for a typical Tramp ship.
May be true at J1. I can see why you'd make the statement but it is not always the case for all ships and number and type of passengers at all jump capabilities. It is certainly possible, but not likely, at J2. Not likely, to me meaning less than 50% chance. Not sure how to calculate this chance with all the random and unknown factors. See pages 160 and 161 of the CRB. My math: Using a population of just 3 and 0 DM for current world (average world trade DM) gives a +3 DM. Using population of just 3 and -1 for destination world (average world trade DM) gives +2 DM for a total of +5. This is a 2d6–1d6 for high passengers. Average of 3.5 high passengers. Lets say one run is 3 and another is 4. The 4 high passengers with 2 empty staterooms (For a level 1 steward they always would be but a level 2 steward could fill them with mid passengers for even more income) would be more profitable than if the same 24dt of staterooms was used as freight cargo. On the 3 high passenger run you can get 3d6–2d6, or an average of 3.5 or 3 mid passengers. It only takes 3 high and 2 mid passengers (one stateroom could be empty) to have more revenue than 6 staterooms used as freight cargo. Obviously there are many situations, combinations, and die rolls, and examples where this may not be true.Passengers in MgT are less profitable per ton than freight.
Just discovered something ugly: MGT release is 1 steward per 2 HP or 5 MP.
Now for J2
J3 calculation next? J4? Hmm, not sure what standard ship to use as a trade ship example beyond J2. Anyone have suggestions?
J3 calculation next? J4? Hmm, not sure what standard ship to use as a trade ship example beyond J2. Anyone have suggestions?
The discussion was about freight which would be 1000cr per dton per trade jump or 2000cr per month at jump 1. Just realized another error I made though. The figure would be +200 per parsec or 1200 at jump 2 for 2400cr per month.Cosmic: the one thing you're forgetting is the cost of the lost tonnage of cargo space for the stateroom.
The 86882 figure is wrong because I did not account for the additional income for a J2 2 parsec freight over a one parsec freight. 6 stateroom for passengers +1 stateroom for steward = 28dton. 28 x 2400 (and not 2000) = 67200. Plus the 30882cr expenses for the 6 passenger staterooms and the steward stateroom and salary = 98082.I believe any combination of mid and high passengers (like a level 1 steward caring for 4 high passengers and 2 staterooms are empty) with income over 86,882cr per month would be more profitable than the same 6 staterooms used for cargo.
In fact, it's one steward skill level (begining at 0) per 2 HP or 5 MP. So, should you have a steward with skill level 6, it could attend up to 35 MPs alone (though I guess he/she won't sleep a lot ), as could 7 skill level 0 stewards.
Lost income IS an expense.The discussion was about freight which would be 1000cr per dton per trade jump or 2000cr per month at jump 1. Just realized another error I made though. The figure would be +200 per parsec or 1200 at jump 2 for 2400cr per month.
I don't use it as a cost, because, well, it isn't an expenditure, it's possible lost income. You'll have to explain it to me if I'm still missing something? It is an important figure for comparisons - which is why I broke the stateroom "profit" down to Profit per dt and not profit per passenger or stateroom. The 2000cr per dton per month at J1 and 2400cr per dton per month for J2 can be used in comparison to the Profit per dt figures I generated for passengers.The 86882 figure is wrong because I did not account for the additional income for a J2 2 parsec freight over a one parsec freight. 6 stateroom for passengers +1 stateroom for steward = 28dton. 28 x 2400 (and not 2000) = 67200. Plus the 30882cr expenses for the 6 passenger staterooms and the steward stateroom and salary = 98082.
I'll go back and correct my earlier post.
The flip side would also be true, no? The lost income of not taking a passenger would have to be an expense for cargo? Should the fact you don't have to pay a steward be considered income when calculating profit for hauling freight?Lost income IS an expense.
Looking at this another way ... do your costs associated with a stateroom (whether per passenger or per dTon) include a share of the cost for the Pilot and Engineer and fuel and bank payment for the ship?The flip side would also be true, the lost income of not taking a passenger would have to be an expense for cargo?
How about the lost income for both freight and passengers for not doing speculative trade...?
It starts getting way to complicated for me. We will have to agree to disagree here.
There may be some real world examples such as a business claiming loss of income while it's rebuilding due to a natural disaster? But I can't see a business that sells books using the "expense" of "if we sold electronics instead" or furniture or clothing or lumber or..... as an expense.