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Fixing the Magrail Gun (and other madness).

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Border Reiver

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Some may think that I hate Mercenary but I just think that the equipment section is badly put together. There are some nice ideas in there that if they had been presented better then would be (to me) much more palatable despite being non-OTU in nature.

First up the Magrail Gun. A real video game weapon spewing out razor sharp spinning disks at high rates of fire. So what are the issues with the Magrail Gun. Firstly is the ballistics of the spinning disk munitions. I've seen people claim that a Chakhram is comparable but that is a ring, not a disk and disks carry a whole gamut of fun ballistics.

First up is stability. Unless the round is lenticular (discus) or airfoil (frisbee) shaped any aiming that is not parallel to the ground is going to cause the round to flip, losing the "cut through armour with ease" effect. This would be a problem even at short ranges and is still an issue with the more aerodynamic shapes. Even using an aerodynamic disk creates problems in itself, creating lift in the round from the moment it leaves the gun, "floating" upwards. No doubt this could be corrected by use of "electronic" sights. The next thing to worry about is Magnus Effect, present in any spinning object including more traditional bullets. A quick summary is that any spinning object will create a pressure difference that will cause "drift" in the direction of spin (ie clockwise spin will drift right and anti-clockwise, right). This is used to good effect in bullet design and can create extra stability but in a spinning disk you will see a distinct curve in the rounds track. The degree of curve and amount of lift will be negligible over very short ranges but anything above 20m and you will have to make adjustments, adjustments that will vary considerably with air pressure, temperature, relative humidity and gravity.

Next is the round itself. A 5cm alloy disk (in the case of the carbine and pistol), let's assume a 5mm thickness at the centre, with a razor sharp edge, allowing for improvement in materials engineering where it's mass will be the optimum for ballistics yet not to heavy for practical purposes, this is still stupidly bulky. One round will be as bulky as 5 rounds of 5.56mm NATO. The best I can imagine for a magazine for the carbine is a side feed (like a sten gun) with disks stacked 3 deep and overlapping, it still will be something stupid like a Bren magazine in size. That's just the carbine, the rifle version uses rounds that are 15cm in diameter (6"), again a block of 5 .50cal rounds would have a smaller footprint. As to the damage, there is a reason why points trump edges as penetrators and even in the case of diamond edged blades they are p**s poor penetrators. As an experiment go to your local plant hire shop and get hold of an angle grinder with a cutting blade. Now get a piece of sheet steel or slab of concrete and hit it as hard as you can with the spinning blade. Yes it will cut a bit but will bounce/spin off the target. This is what will happen if you use the railgun as it stands against hard armour.

Now for the fix.

We could leave the gun as it stands but replace the disks with heavy flechettes, turning it into a heavy caliber gauss weapon. Alternatively turn the disks into tori which would increase the aerodynamic properties of the round (though still subject to Magnus Effect it will be lessened) but the damage will be still an issue. Or we could make some fantastical adjustments to create the devastating personal weapon the original authors intended.

So let's try some examples.

Magrail Weaponry
This class of weapons fires lenticular shaped disks down a pair of electromagnetic rails at hypersonic velocities. The disks are made of an advanced alloy and honed to a diamond edge which will rend flesh and light armours. Although devastating at close in ranges the inherent instability of the munitions make these weapons virtually useless at longer ranges and most human troops find them cumbersome to wield.

Magrail Pistol firing 5cm advanced alloy disks from a 20 round circular cassette mounted in the top of the pistol and powered by a pack inserted into the pistol grip.
Code:
Weapon	TL	Range	Damage	Auto	Recoil	Mass(kg)	Mag.	Cost
Pistol	14	Pistol	3d6+2	1/2	4	1.4kg		20	1500

*cannot engage targets greater than short range.

Magrail Carbine using the same ammunition as the Magrail Pistol this advanced technology carbine utilises onboard targeting electronic and gravitic projectile stabilisation to cancel out ballistic drift. The carbine has a 40 round cassette that runs the upper length of the weapon and a large power pack in front of the trigger guard. The circular pistol magazine can also be fitted.
Code:
Weapon	TL	Range	Damage	Auto	Recoil	Mass(kg)	Mag.	Cost

Carbine	14	Assault	3d6+2	1/2	4	4kg		40	2500

Magrail Rifle uses a larger 15cm disk in a heavier receiver. It incorporates all the targetting enhancements of the carbine but without the gravitic stabilisation. The Magrail creates a tremendous amount of blast and recoil so can only be handled by the strongest of individuals (Str 11+) or those wearing Battledress.
Code:
Weapon	TL	Range	Damage	Auto	Recoil	Mass(kg)	Mag.	Cost

Rifle	13	Assault	4d6+2	3	6	7kg		40	4500

*cannot achieve ranges greater than long.

In the OTU Magrail Rifles are the standard longarm of K'kree Stormtroops whilst the Magrail pistol is well known as a pirate's "decksweeper" weapon, devastating in the close confines of a starship corridor.

So I've made a few changes to the stats but the basic principle of Magrail Weapons remain unchanged. I'm open to comments or even outright insults.:smirk:

Next Up; Artillery Battledress.
 
Were the problems with railguns addressed at all?

Like the high current needed (relative to gauss guns considerably more for the same effect as I understand it)?

Which also implies a bigger power source.

Or the effect on the rails of said high current and projectile interaction, basically burning the rails down and needing to regularly replace them?

And the extra mass of the "barrel" compared to that of a gauss gun to compensate for the higher forces involved?

And the high temperature produced? (there's a nice IR signature for the enemy to lock on to).

Just wondering.

As a large vehicle, ship, or emplaced/towed gun it sounds doable though not without problems. As a personal weapon, especially a handgun, that's a bit more fantasy than fiction I think.
 
But Dan!

Those are all TL8 limitations of magnetic/electrical projected munitions.

Much like pointing out that a BMG sniper weapon is too unweildy to use a ramrod to reload with as a problem. Or that the pressures involved in modern firearms are unrealistic because there are no metals able to take that kind of pressure. These are appropriate TL3 complaints about TL7/8 weapons. Just as what you point out are appropriate TL8 complaints about TL13 weapons. :)
 
OK, specific to the disc version, a couple questions/ponderings...

What about wind effects? Besides the mentioned aerodynamic effects it seems like it would be particularly upsetting to the flight of the round. On the other hand in a vacuum no worries.

Which part of the round is it that is completing the circuit of the rails? Has to be the center of the disc right? Otherwise your edges would be gone. How does that affect the loading and magazine arrangement? Is that what you have accounting for the bulk in your notes BR?
 
But Dan!

Those are all TL8 limitations of magnetic/electrical projected munitions.

Much like pointing out that a BMG sniper weapon is too unweildy to use a ramrod to reload with as a problem. Or that the pressures involved in modern firearms are unrealistic because there are no metals able to take that kind of pressure. These are appropriate TL3 complaints about TL7/8 weapons. Just as what you point out are appropriate TL8 complaints about TL13 weapons. :)

Well yeah, but they're comparative to the gauss weapons is what I'm mostly looking for. Is that there? I agree we presume a certain materials and power advance to even be talking about gauss weapons, the same as applied to rail guns. Know what I mean?

But even so it comes down to simple physics. A rail gun requires a solid highly conductive pair of rails capable of withstanding great forces. A gauss gun doesn't. Ergo a rail gun of the same punch is going to be much heavier.

I'm not sure how you get around the melting rails with materials advances without a big handwave. Gauss weapons avoid this because there is no friction. Rail guns require contact to complete the circuit and work so you can't avoid the friction.

The first thing that pops into my mind for addressing these is a superconductive rail and munition. Probably requiring refrigeration, which will help with the melting and heat signature too. But it means one more system to add to the weight and complexity.
 
But I still have a hard time getting over the biggest (imo) hurdle of a disc rail gun round, and that is, as BR pointed out, cutting armor is not sensible.
 
Additional pondering...

Any razor edged disc seems to me is just going to curl up and die on any armor of equivalent material/TL.

Penetration is going to be lower than a bullet because it's spread over a wider area won't it?

I wonder if a star shuriken* would work better? As in less aerodynamic issues and points to penetrate instead of, just what is that disc edge supposed to do? Lop off heads or something? Cinematic, and no doubt demoralizing to the enemy, but effective?

* Ooh, space ninjas with shuriken rail cannons :)
 
But even so it comes down to simple physics. A rail gun requires a solid highly conductive pair of rails capable of withstanding great forces. A gauss gun doesn't. Ergo a rail gun of the same punch is going to be much heavier.

I'm not sure how you get around the melting rails with materials advances without a big handwave. Gauss weapons avoid this because there is no friction. Rail guns require contact to complete the circuit and work so you can't avoid the friction.

What about a superconducting lubricant that completes the contact between the rail and disk with minimal friction losses. A Teflon-like film on the disk that liquifies (or turns to plasma) from the heat.

Could the disk be non-metalic (like ceramic) with the coating imparting the electrically induced spin and acceleration?

I'm just fishing here. :)
 
Like star shuriken :) (see my post same time just below yours)...or the more traditional spike?
Just the boring old pointy boat-tail. Or maybe coke-bottle shaped? Not sure the star shape would be a good choice, aerodynamically, because then you have to deal with different velocities of the "advancing" vs. the "retreating" blades. Same problem helicopters have, which severely limits their speed.
 
...Not sure the star shape would be a good choice, aerodynamically, because then you have to deal with different velocities of the "advancing" vs. the "retreating" blades. Same problem helicopters have, which severely limits their speed.

Good point, I hadn't been thinking of it like a set of rotating wings.
 
This is a core philosophy issue with me here.

With all of the assorted nits and such with Trav tech, particularly the large scale handwavium (Jump Drives, M-Drives, HePLAR...), they don't really set off the "BS" meter.

As someone else mentioned, the original Mercenary was a great piece of speculative thought. GDW put a good amount of effort in to the creation of that tech, its ramifications, etc. But, at a high level gut level of "if", they worked, they FELT "real".

FF&S is, to me, a pinnacle achievement as they tried to codify all this crap they're just making up out of thin air, and make it "work" in the "real world". GDW knew they had to, umm, "route around" physics, but came up with clever ways (like the discussion about lasers and "gravitic lenses").

This disc gun sounds like some kind of thing out of Warhammer, which is all about style.

It's all about feel, and Traveller has always been pretty "hard" in its feel, and its a slippery slope. So, you know, let's just be careful out there.
 
This is a core philosophy issue with me here.

Well, in this case we should perhaps try to find a "philosophical" solution for
the Magrail Gun "problem".

As far as I know, Mercenary does not insist that it is a weapon used by any
specific OTU race or by the Third Imperium, so we could assume that this
kind of weapon was designed and constructed by some still unknown species.

Since this species prefers to use disc-shaped projectiles despite their obvious
disadvantages, there must be a very strong incentive for doing so. The stron-
gest motive to do something irrational in our own history has usually been reli-
gion.

So, our unknown species has religious motives. Perhaps it is a major sin to use
any ball-shaped or pointed objects in killing other members of the species, for
example because the highest deities of their culture use ball-shaped and poin-
ted objects as their holy symbols.
Or it is the other way around, a member of the species may only use roughly
disc-shaped objects to kill in war, because the deity of war has a disc as its
holy symbol.

Under these circumstances, the artillery engineers of the species would have
had to come up with a gun that throws ... discs, obviously. Sure, a bad idea,
but perhaps the best one available, because otherwise the inquisitors would
have been unhappy.

This funny Magrail Gun is a nice inspiration to find a plausible explanation for
it, and to write it into an adventure where it is unexpected, but a logical part
of the background.

For me, it is a chance to be creative, not a problem to complain about. ;)
 
In the OTU Magrail Rifles are the standard longarm of K'kree Stormtroops whilst the Magrail pistol is well known as a pirate's "decksweeper" weapon, devastating in the close confines of a starship corridor.

So I've made a few changes to the stats but the basic principle of Magrail Weapons remain unchanged. I'm open to comments or even outright insults.:smirk:

I like it, just enough technical description to make it work for me. Thanks, BR!

...

As someone else mentioned, the original Mercenary was a great piece of speculative thought. GDW put a good amount of effort in to the creation of that tech, its ramifications, etc. But, at a high level gut level of "if", they worked, they FELT "real".

...

This disc gun sounds like some kind of thing out of Warhammer, which is all about style.

It's all about feel, and Traveller has always been pretty "hard" in its feel, and its a slippery slope. So, you know, let's just be careful out there.

This pretty much summarizes my problems with the equipment section of Mercenary. It seems to lack the hard edge that I want in my Traveller ironmongery.

This funny Magrail Gun is a nice inspiration to find a plausible explanation for
it, and to write it into an adventure where it is unexpected, but a logical part
of the background.

For me, it is a chance to be creative, not a problem to complain about. ;)

The MagRails weren't actually a huge problem for me, I am sure I could come up with some sort of justification for it. (I will probably just steal the one presented here, now.) I guess the issue for me is that I was hoping that the weapons wouldn't require me to come up with a plausible explanation, that they would instead already be a logical part of the background.
 
I guess the issue for me is that I was hoping that the weapons wouldn't require me to come up with a plausible explanation, that they would instead already be a logical part of the background.

Then this is probably why all those things are no problem at all for me, since
I prefer to design my own settings anyway. In fact, I very much welcome
that MGT is not restricted to the old OTU setting, and instead enables me
to "borrow" other ideas from the books, too.

But this is of course a matter of taste. :)
 
Under these circumstances, the artillery engineers of the species would have
had to come up with a gun that throws ... discs, obviously. Sure, a bad idea,
but perhaps the best one available, because otherwise the inquisitors would
have been unhappy.

Well, I can see some chats with the Inquistor:

"God hates Entry Teams".

Just visualizing someone kicking a door in to a crowded room and firing one of these things and having spinning discs ricocheting all over the place like a pinball machine, doing lots of collateral damage to "soft targets" (like hostages).
 
Just visualizing someone kicking a door in to a crowded room and firing one of these things and having spinning discs ricocheting all over the place like a pinball machine, doing lots of collateral damage to "soft targets" (like hostages).

Religious observance does have its price, I guess. ;)

Or perhaps this species does either not take or not free hostages ?

Because being captured alive is so shameful that others just ignore the
situation and pretend that it does not exist - or that the captured per-
son has ceased to exist ?

Alien theocratic samurai on steroids ... (or was it asteroids ?) :smirk:
 
Just the boring old pointy boat-tail. Or maybe coke-bottle shaped? Not sure the star shape would be a good choice, aerodynamically, because then you have to deal with different velocities of the "advancing" vs. the "retreating" blades. Same problem helicopters have, which severely limits their speed.

If the star is being employed to generate lift, then that is indeed a problem. If its just a spinning blade-point-thingy getting all its energy from the weapon, then the helicopter's problem does not apply. A helicopter *must* generate lift with its blades, or it becomes an expensive wreck. That is why they have a maximum speed based on rotor angular velocity (which is in turn based on other engineering and materials issues).
 
If the star is being employed to generate lift, then that is indeed a problem. If its just a spinning blade-point-thingy getting all its energy from the weapon, then the helicopter's problem does not apply. A helicopter *must* generate lift with its blades, or it becomes an expensive wreck. That is why they have a maximum speed based on rotor angular velocity (which is in turn based on other engineering and materials issues).

But if the blade is a lift generating design it value adds to the weapon.

Who doesn't want a weapon that can shoot around corners. :)

Of course you can do the same thing with conventional bullets by puting in a hinge, just not to the same extent.
 
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