Fleet Maintenance

[PFVA63]

Hi, I guess I'm reading things differently

Hi,

I guess I'm reading things differently than you because I always thought that relatively high maintenance requirements were part of standard Traveller practice. Specifically I recall when I first started playing back around 1980, that one of the guys in our group was so bummed that all we could afford was a slow free-trader and he joked that maybe we should start skipping annual maintenance and start using unrefined fuel to see if we could get the drive to mis-jump just so we could potentially travel further (I assumed he was joking).

Looking through LBB2 on page 4 it addresses the impacts of skipping annual maintenance and misjumps. On page 6 it addresses routine maintenance costs and requirements specifically noting that it take 2 weeks a year (or 3.85% of the total time in a year) and costs 1/1000th the cost of the ship (37,080 CR for a Type A Free Trader).

Page 18 addresses repair parts noting that malfunctions to various components can occur and the total cost of repairs of a specific component can run up to 120% the original cost of that component, and it suggests that because of this "in some cases, complete replacement of the item is sometimes cheaper."

As such I had always assumed that the need to perform regular routine maintenance and the potential for expensive equipment failures were always part of the basic assumptions of the game.

Regards

PF

 

[PFVA63]

Hi, For Reference...

Hi,

For reference I've also looked through some of the newer Traveller books I have as well.

In T4, the data appears very similar to what's in the original LBB2. Unfortunately I can't find my copy of TNE right now[Edit] but in MT it provides a calculation for Maintenance Crew and it notes that for the 800t Mercenary Cruiser one of the eight crew members onboard would be a dedicated maintenance person[Edit].

In GURPS Traveller: Far Trader Parts and Stores costs are listed as an additional 0.1% of the ship's original purchase price per year (in addition to the parts and costs required for annual maintenance). Additionally this book provides a formula for estimating the structural health of a ship, which it describes as a "statistic to reflect their general condition and resistance to wear, fatigue, and breakdowns." Another formula is provided for estimating routine daily man-hour maintenance requirements, which for the Beowulf class Free Trader comes out as 25.8 hours per day.

With respect to annual maintenance requirements the book suggests costs and times to complete similar to those from CT and T4 if this work is done in what they term a Class IV or V Starport, but that the same work could be done by the ships crew at twice the normal time, if done in a Class III or better starport but that the cost of the parts are assumed to be 1/2 that if the work is done the normal way. Additionally the book also notes that if the work were done by the ship's crew in a Class I or II starport it would take 8 weeks to complete, suggesting that at least some of the work could be done easier if done at a more advance starport with more advanced facilities. Finally, this book notes that for 50% of the difference between its original cost and its actual purchase price it can recieve a "complete rebuild from the hull up", with the total time required equal to hull surface area in square feet/4000) in weeks.

In the GURPs Traveller; Interstellar Wars book under Crew Requirements it gives info on sizing a ship's maintenace section based on overall crew size and/or ship size.

As such, some of these newer books provide additional input on maintenance and repair issues and suggest to me at least that they aren't really considered as trivial issues in these versions of the rules.

Anyway, just some additional thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[flykiller]

As such I had always assumed that the need to perform regular routine maintenance and the potential for expensive equipment failures were always part of the basic assumptions of the game.

they have been, but some basic assumptions just don't fit with or follow from the other basic assumptions. one is forced to choose. I like mbrinkhues' setting, I just can't see it, and I can't run a game I can't see. others may run it just fine, and if the players and referee are having a good game then it's a good game.

if one feels the need to rationalize one can say that civilian equipment is built to be economical up-front i.e. not necessarily the best, while in military construction up-front costs and maintenance costs are no object. further military ships are built at the best yards, while civilian shipping gets the leftovers. doesn't mean civilian ships are bad, just that they don't always follow best practice.

take junidy. tech 9, huge population, huge shipyard, but their boats are heavily outclassed by everyone else. so, they design them as cheaply as they can and sell them at cut rates, just to break into the market. their boats work, like a ford focus works, it's just that they're not too reliable.

or consider the many small yards throughout the spinward marches that are just big enough to build a handful of merchantmen. their practices may be non-standard, they may be designed by college students working on their thesis, they may have leftover parts they want to get rid of. lots of maintenance role-playing involved in those.

but I imagine military ships being designed to set and superivised and verified standards, with longevity and ease of maintenance and repair in mind, learned from hard experience in losing battles. these boats are meant to be away from port for long periods, so they're designed to be maintained in the "field".

't'show I see it. it's a fantasy game, it can be seen differently.

 

[Hal]

Hi Guys

I never expected this thread to be revived again

In any event, after having spent time away from the topic, and having seen some responses here and there plus topics of discussion elsewhere, the following thoughts have run their course in my mind so to speak...

A) as far as maintenance goes, it doesn't matter what the starport tech level is when it comes to doing maintenance. Based on the rules, which by the way, were not invented by GURPS STARPORTS, but had been created and printed in the JTAS earlier on, one could easily do frontier repairs. Why? What by definition is a Class E (Classic Traveller) or type I (GURPS Traveller) starport? Both are by definition, cleared bedrock with a beacon - nothing more. By definition then, a Class X starport is differentiated from a Class E starport by nothing more than the fact that someone took the time to find a nice level piece of ground and stripped it of topsoil or leveled it etc and planted a beacon there.

B) As far as maintenance goes - any ship that is in maintenance mode is likely going to be vulnerable to sudden surprise attacks - which the military is decidedly unfond of. In a way, the analogy in the age of sail is that of careening the hull. You find a nice secluded beach, mount some defensive works, and pray that an enemy ship doesn't come about and lay a barrage into the useless hull.

C) now for the fun part. What happens when you take a hit on your hull and it winds up taking out a portion of your cargo hold? In the original rules for spacecraft combat, roughly 14% of all hits would impact on the cargo hold. In High Guard, the rules were abstracted to the extent that Cargo holds do not appear in the damage tables. Probably an oversight of sorts on the grounds that cargo hold hits do not impact directly on a ship's fighting ability. In any event, taking a cargo hit for a ship that carries its own maintenance supplies is not an inconsequential hit - but as potentially devastating as a drive hit.

My general thoughts on Fleet maintenance is as follows:

Standardization of equipment:
Where ever possible, ships components that are used in one type of hull will be standardized to be used within another hull class. For example, if a ship is a Jump 2 ship, the same configuration jump 2 drives will be used between different "classes" of hulls. Traveller doesn't really specify if a 6 dton jump drive which produces a Jump 2 effect for a 200 dton hull or a Jump 1 effect for a 300 dton hull are the same "machines" or whether they are different machines. In other words, lets say I am a factory owner who produces the Mark 15 Aldoris Jump drive. It is made the same way every single time thanks to the marvels of production line assembly. I sell one unit of Mark 15's to the Far Trader ship building company, and one unit to a newly formed ship building company who specializes in 300 dton jump-1 freighters. Can the Mark 15 Aldoris drive be placed in either a Far trader or the 300 dton ship with no difference between the two hulls? In theory? Yes. The quibble that may surface is the "Jump drive govenor" being different (A hold over from HIGH GUARD 1st edition). Otherwise? By definition, one has to presume that there IS a difference between a 6 dton jump drive emplaced in a 300 dton hull versus a 6 dton jump drive emplaced in a 200 dton hull. In any event - there has to be some level of standardization that permits parts from the 200 dton hull to be used in a 300 dton hull interchangably or we're going to run into a logistical nightmare in trying to have on hand, stock for ships that may never put in repairs and/or maintenance.

Fleet Tenders:
We tend to dismiss the needs of fleet tender class ships and go with the concept that simple freighters or military grade freighters handle the routine supply requirements. The Scouts have an Xboat tender that they utilize for maintenance requirements of x-craft - so why wouldn't the Navy have its version for the lesser craft? What praytell is the difference between a fleet tender whose hanger bay is sufficiently large enough to engulf a Destroyer hull of 3,000 dtons and a starport capable of handling a destroyer hull as far as maintenance goes? To my eye, there is no difference. Furthermore? On a world which lacks a breathable atmosphere or is an asteroid style habitat - there is no real difference between working on the ship in a vacuum environment as compared against say, a starport on a planetary surface.

As for myself and my own Traveller universe - Starports should their own tech level that is independent of the World's tech level. Why? Thinkn about it. Lets say you need component parts manufactured for a ship in the way of jump drive components. Does it matter if the high port gets its material shipped in from the world below, or the World that is 2 jumps away? All the starport cares about is that it has the components in inventory, has the neccessarily well trained personnel on hand, and has a customer with enough money to pay for the cost of overhead, supplies, and a slight profit over and above neccessary costs. So whether a World has a high enough tech level or not for the starport it has on its surface or its high port is immaterial in the long run. All that matters is this:

Does it have the raw materials required to keep it operational?
Does it have the trained personnel required to keep it operational?
Does it have a short enough supply line to keep it profitable?
Is it competative?

More thoughts in next post...

 

[Hal]

Lets face it - starports can treated as though they were "hulls" in the Traveller Universe. As such, nothing says that they have to have the same tech level as the world they orbit are operate upon. As long as the trained personnel are available and the supplies required to keep the "hull" operational, there is nothing to bar a world with a TL of 10 having a TL 13 starport. The disconnect is that its world economy will not be directly tied in with the operation of that higher tech starport.

Lets back up a little and look at the maintenance requirements for ordinary hulls. It states that Class A or Class B starports are required in order to effect the maintenance. This jibs well with my mental picture of starports. Why? What is the difference between a Class A starport and a Class B starport? Per Traveller, the only difference is that of whether or not the starport can manufacture Jump capable hulls. In theory? One could expect that a class B starport, within say, 2 jumps distance from a world that manufactures components for jump drives, could build Jump capable hulls by importing the raw components neccessary for the construction inclusion of Jump drives - as the Class B starport already has the facilities to build manuever drives, life support, weaponry, avionics, and bridge components. All that is lacking is the jump drive components and or personnel. Since class B starports can handle the maintenance of jump capable ships, that also implies that a class B starport has the personnel, which leaves only the component parts. Here is where it gets interesting however. If a class B starport is capable of handling maintenance for jump capable ships - it must have the components required for the maintenance right? That means it stocks up on those parts - or has to send out for them in advance. If it doesn't have the parts in stock, does this not imply then, that it is possible for a ship to pull into a class B starport and discover that the parts are not present? What of those "unique" warships that are not present in large numbers. Would it be safe to presume that the component parts will be available at any random starport - or must specific parts that are unique be sent to a given location and the "unique" hull now must make a port of call at the designated "Maintenance depot"?

In a way, I wish that the Internet had been present when Traveller had its birth. I would have suggested to the game designers that Starports should be separate from the world and given its own ratings to describe its capabilities on the world in which it is a part of.

Overall TL of the starport itself
How reliable is it for having spare parts for:
Warships over 3 k-dtons
Warships under 3 k-dtons
Commercial Hulls over 3 k-dtons
Commercial Hulls under 3 k-dtons
Whether it can manufacture Jump capable ships or not
Max hull size it can manufacture at speed in a friendly environment.
Max Hull size it can manufacture in hostile (deep space?) at a slower rate.
Population size of the Starport
Vice level (how happy are sailors to show up at this port?)
Control rating (free of control or tightly controlled?)

Little things like this to distinguish between ports themselves and their place in the Traveller universe. Now? A starport A that is TL 14 despite its home world being TL 11, is capable of handling the needs of a TL 14 or less fleet. The cost of maintaining the Starport is wholely dependent upon the same game mechanics as required for ships themselves. And if you really want to be creative? What if only the ship building facilities are at TL 14, but the rest of the starport itself is built using TL 11 components? Thus, the living quarters of the port residents, energy production components, etc are all TL 11, but those elements directly connected towards the fabrication of hulls are all modern cutting edge TL 14 units.

Ah well, I'm rambling here

 

[PFVA63]

To Flykiller

Hi,

In general, I guess alot will just depend on how each person chooses to run their game setting, and as such there probably isn't really any correct answer.

In some peoples Traveller Universes maintenance may be a relatively big issue, but in others probably not. But in the end there's probably nothing wrong with that.

Regards

PF

 

[Butch Clor]

Naval Shipyards

Checking back through my CT books I found reference to a number of Naval Shipyards. In Kinnunir and Azhanti High Lightning, the yards are; 11, 16,17, and 22. In Games Workshop's ISS Shipfiles references to yards;14,16,17.and 24. These all would have the capability of building ships to 60K tons, As the AHL class had this displacement.
At this time the Traveller universe only included the Spinward Marches and the Solmani Rim. Number 17 has to be in the marches as it is referenced as the building location for some of Kinnunirs, a class only produced in the Spinward Marches.
IMHO, an planet with a Class A Starport and Naval Base and is either, Rich, industrial, or has a population in the billions and a TL of 14 or 15, would have a separate Naval Shipyard . These Naval Shipyard systems, would be good systems to base our repair tenders

I hope this helps with this discussion.

Butch

 

[flykiller]

... and a TL of 14 or 15, would have a separate Naval Shipyard .

there are only five of those in the entire spinward marches. considering construction times specified in adventure 5 trillion credit squadron it stands to reason that these worlds will be occupied entirely with imperial naval construction, since there's no place else at which the imperial fleet can be built. they may not even have normal civilian yards at all.

this would dovetail nicely with a canon statement I've seen elsewhere that lunion/strouden are the center of high-end civilian ship construction in the marches. given that tech 15 ships if available will be markedly cheaper and have larger cargo capacities than tech 13 ships, one must conclude that the tech 15 yards are in fact not available to civies.

 

[Butch Clor]

Continued Naval Yard

Flykiller and others, my comments about a naval yard being present if the world has a Type 'A' starport, a naval base, and the world is rich, high pop, or industrial, I meant that if the "A" port and base are present and any one of the other qualifiers, then there is a Naval Shipyard present. Ships can be built at a naval yard of a lower tech system just more components will have to be imported in system.
An example is an adventure where an A-2 was carrying the core of a TL-16 Model 10fib computer from Darrian to the naval shipyard on Jacent. IMTU all Darrian warships have TL-16 computers no matter the computer type. Just they use the 10% reduction in size per tech level that Marc Miller has refered to numerous times over the years. A computer introduced at TL-10 will be 60% smaller for the same capabalities.
In looking in the AHL book I came on references that the Naval yards in the Marches were running as many as 4 AHLs in a yard at a time. Also in Kinuir it refers to ships built, albiet with quality problems, at General Shipyards. Also there is the Naval depot in the Deneb Sector as well as the yards there to help the Marches in time of war.
The greatest help for Marches as well as Deneb is the Great Naval Yard and Depot in Corridor. This Depot is a strategic reserve for two sectors to either side. It has a complete fleet deployable to another sector without effecting Corridor's safety.
In addition there is the OppFor Fleet assigned to Corridor. There it normally trains other fleet in combat tactics used by Vargar, Aslan, and Zhodani navies. This force is equal in size to a large navy numered fleet in
the border reaches of the Imperium.

As a final note on mothballing in Travellers Digest 7 still a CT cannon book it is stated that with the full engineering crew on board a mothballed ship is ready for service in 6 days per 1000 tons displacement; with full activation taking no less than 12 days. Using this an AHL would , at 1 shift per day, be ready in 360 days, additional shifts reduce time in proportion.

THanks for your opinions and concepts
Butch

 

[flykiller]

Ships can be built at a naval yard of a lower tech system just more components will have to be imported in system.

shipyard capacity represents not just physical volume but also technical and staffing capability. building a high tech ship in a lower tech yard doesn't make extra high tech capability appear, rather existing high tech capability is merely redirected from one yard to another - with the extra associated overhead.

if plenty of time is available then this doesn't mean much, but if a new ship is needed as soon as possible then the quickest way to build it is to completion in the yard that has the cabability.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Also remember that even "modular construction" and "experienced metalworkers" does not equal "good shipbuilders" or "good WARship builders".

I.e the local channel drydock/wharft was/is really skilled at building channel tugs and barges. They proofed less-capabel in building parts for advanced submarines back in 1944/45.