OTU Only: Fleet Organization

[Redcap]

It wasn't so much as left off as deliberately omitted. If you think through the design sequence for High Guard all Imperial military ships are 6G (or should be). While we were coming up with the options, we couldn't find a good example to cover the use.

Interesting; makes me wonder all of a sudden (why this just occurred I have no idea, but there y'go) why there's a limit of M6, given the artificial gravity capability; presumably there are inertial dampers as well, so why the M6 limit, can ships not have faster acceleration, or was it a deliberate limitation in the ruleset?

Well, its a defense. So fighters do rotate a lot. They also have standby wings. Real world example, during 9/11 there we're only 2 fighters in the air in the north east (covering several states) because we we're at peace. They could not cover the territory quickly.

I don't tend to use the wiki, but prefer the books. I had a rebuilt Gazelle in one game i re-classified as Griffon, pardon the lapse. Either way, close escorts add value, fighters add value to a tight defense.

Hmm. We have a similar problem with our ADIZ, trust me.

One point that occurs to me, is that if an enemy somehow manages to sneak in a stealthy surveillance platform, having defensive vessels hidden in place for extended periods makes for good defensive practices; rotating them all the time tends to reveal harbour/leaguer and hide locations all the more quickly to such platforms. Hey, I tend to think worst case scenario, it's how I was trained

Still, this needs further thought.

As usual, comments/suggestions/thought/ideas welcome

 

[Redcap]

Purpose built "command cruisers" are mostly a thing of Sci-Fi. They're really just a CA with extra comms. The role used in most SciFi for them was instead fulfilled by either battlecruisers (CB/BC) or "pocket battleships" (properly, CA "Armored Cruisers" - The Deutschland class CA's)


Some purpose built "Destroyer Leaders" were built... these were light cruisers or frigates assigned to lead destroyer squadrons, and with armaments comparable to those on their partnered Destroyers. In the USN, depending upon size, they actually were counted as either CLs or FFs. Note that the DL's rapidly found their way out of DD Squadrons, and into the frigate role.

To find actual "Command Cruisers" (CC), one has to look at some very small navies, whose frigate, destroyer and cutter based navies have only a couple cruisers, and outfit them with every gadget a more credible navy would put only on BC's and bigger.

Good points. So, regular CBs, CLs, and CSs, no CLCs; I think each of the three main flotillas will be based around a BB/VTB acting as command, with the other ships in the flotilla as screen/attack etc, with the BB flotilla being the flagship flotilla.

Seems to make sense to me, but I'd be interested in hearing other views.

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, fleet or naval CinCs, as opposed to battle squadron commanders, might decide to plant their flag onboard a largish cruiser, in order to stay out of the battle line.

A purpose built command ship would likely only be deployed in an area of operations that the commander supposes it's safe from a direct attack.

 

[salochin999]

My thoughts on SDBs

The advantage of an SDB is that tonnage which isn't being used for jump (or maneuver) drive can go on power and weapons instead so in theory a same tonnage SDB fleet would always outmatch an equal but jump capable fleet.

However that only applies if the SDB fleet matches the threat particularly in terms of weapon range so it can't be outgunned from a distance.

What levels of threat might SDBs be designed for
- peacetime: asteroids, meteorites
- peacetime: pirates
- wartime: commerce raiders
- wartime: invasion fleet

Assuming pirates are generally only in 100-800 dton ships then the SDBs for the first two cases would only need to be small.

The third might require cruiser sized SDBs (so they weren't outgunned from distance).

The fourth would require capital ship sized SDBs (so they weren't outgunned from distance).

#

Only major systems could produce SDBs that large and probably only major systems would be worth the effort.

#

To me that seems to imply at least the possibility of very large SDBs and very large surface based weapons around bases and fuel sources in the most important systems.

Although if you have the split between colonial and IN forces then the colonial side could be responsible for all that.

 

[Redcap]

Generally speaking, fleet or naval CinCs, as opposed to battle squadron commanders, might decide to plant their flag onboard a largish cruiser, in order to stay out of the battle line.

A purpose built command ship would likely only be deployed in an area of operations that the commander supposes it's safe from a direct attack.

Makes sense. That said, a BA or BB should be fairly well armoured, so should have a flag deck or failing that, other dedicated flag spaces for an admiral (or commodore, whatever) to have overall command of the fleet he's in charge of.

So, as mentioned above (and at the danger of repeating myself ), the 130th will have regular CBs, CLs, and CSs, and no (zero) CLCs. Fleet/Flotilla lead will be assumed from the BBs and VTBs, with the senior Flotilla being the one with the BB.

My thoughts on SDBs

The advantage of an SDB is that tonnage which isn't being used for jump (or maneuver) drive can go on power and weapons instead so in theory a same tonnage SDB fleet would always outmatch an equal but jump capable fleet.

That was my understanding as well.

However that only applies if the SDB fleet matches the threat particularly in terms of weapon range so it can't be outgunned from a distance.

I had not considered that rather awkwardly annoying aspect. Oh, pooh, and other very much more rude words...

What levels of threat might SDBs be designed for
- peacetime: asteroids, meteorites
- peacetime: pirates
- wartime: commerce raiders
- wartime: invasion fleet

Assuming pirates are generally only in 100-800 dton ships then the SDBs for the first two cases would only need to be small.

The third might require cruiser sized SDBs (so they weren't outgunned from distance).

The fourth would require capital ship sized SDBs (so they weren't outgunned from distance).

Only major systems could produce SDBs that large and probably only major systems would be worth the effort.

My take is that anything required to take out a capital ship is going to either be mahoosive itself, or horrendously well-armed and armoured if smaller. SDBs aren't intended as ships you take into a fleet battle: Their survivability is too small, even taking into account their higher than average manoeuvrability.

To me that seems to imply at least the possibility of very large SDBs and very large surface based weapons around bases and fuel sources in the most important systems.

One of the reasons that SAM, SOM, AAA, and ASA were invented

SAM - Surface to Air Missile
SOM - Surface to Orbit Missile
AAA - Anti-Air Artillery (VRF Gauss guns, large-bore projectile weapons, VRF Plasma/Fusion weapons, CPAWs, etc)
ASA - Anti-Space Artillery (CPAWS, etc)

Although if you have the split between colonial and IN forces then the colonial side could be responsible for all that.

This being the edge of the Reft, there aren't too many colonial forces available.

I think on balance a few squadrons of corvettes (most likely Reckless Errand Class CE Close Escorts acting in a defensive role) will probably be the answer here, rather than SDBs or massed fighters.

As an aside, why, oh WHY, did no-one include the word 'Corvette' in the ship classification listings (I'm somewhat fickle, I suppose, in that regard )?

 

[Redcap]

OK, decision: There being no apparent DP designs available, it has to be DDs instead, so the DesRons will be exclusively equipped with Longbow Class Destroyers, these having good armaments, excellent legs for border patrols, and reasonable manoeuvre drives.

• Wiki
• Stats

Comments welcome

 

[Redcap]

Hmm. Page 132 of Sector Fleet suggests I'm producing an overly heavy fleet for the 130th.

I need to re-model it downsized a fair bit...

So, here's the updated interim FleetOrg... Note that I've yet to add the majority of the Fleet Train vessels...

130th Imperial (Border Security) Fleet
Motto: "Vigilant Protection"

Flag Squadron (Home Base: Reft 2738 Cyril)

• 1 Grendal Class BB Battleship
• 1 Metlay Class EA Fleet Escort
• 3 Reckless Errand Class EL Close Escorts
• 1 Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ship

Subsector Destroyer Flotilla

• 8 Kendal Craig Class Fleet Destroyers grouped as 2 squadrons
• 8 Longbow Class Destroyers deployed independently

Subsector Border & Patrol Assets

• 20 Nam Pak Class CS Scout Cruisers grouped administratively as 5 flotillas of 4 ships each, but deployed individually.

Subsector Logistics Assets (Fleet Train)

• 1 x AZT class Rift Tanker (NO SPECS!)
• 4 x Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ships
• Assorted auxiliaries, freighters and small logistics vessels

As organisations go, this is fairly typical of the standard organisation of a subsector fleet, with one major difference: It's very heavy on Cruisers, with the patrol assets beefed up considerably from corvette-sized Close Escorts to Scout Cruisers, instead. Primarily, this is due to the proximity of the Reft, with it's paucity of fuel-bearing star systems. The rationale was thus for maximum endurance and sustainability between replenishments, along with better jump performance, and the better ability, compared to a close escort, to hold their own against unexpected forces, should they be encountered while conducting solo patrols.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

 

[tjoneslo]

Interesting; makes me wonder all of a sudden (why this just occurred I have no idea, but there y'go) why there's a limit of M6, given the artificial gravity capability; presumably there are inertial dampers as well, so why the M6 limit, can ships not have faster acceleration, or was it a deliberate limitation in the ruleset?

The M6 limit in High Guard, along with the J6 limit, was a carry over from book 2. Here I would believe the limit was established because 6 sounded like a good number.

Many later Traveller versions (TNE, T4, GT) all had design sequences allowing M drives to be greater than M6. The dampers were always limited to 6G, so anything faster required special equipment for the crew. I've seen T4 designs (very specialized) that could manage 12G for a couple of hours. And GT missile designs in the 15G range.

Traveller 5th now also has the hop and skip drives to allow jumps further than 6 parsecs.

 

[Redcap]

Interesting - OK, thanks, I follow the thinking at least, now

Also, please note my editing to my previous post on fleet sizing to include a tentative FleetOrg

 

[Condottiere]

You could assign each unit a value, and have mandatory upper and lower limits for unit types and classes.

 

[Redcap]

If I were doing it for a competition, like TCS, maybe, but the 130th will primarily be for background in my Land Grab, so points values aren't really the kind of nuts'n'bolts complications I want to contend with right now

In any case, I think we're just about there now; I need to add in the Fleet Train (Ideas on the AZT class Rift Tanker/Replenishment ship are welcome!), and the Marine assets, maybe some small ships such as fighters here and there, but once that's done, it'll be Orbat diagram time, then inclusion into the Land Grab for Reft 3030 Rampart

 

[salochin999]

My take is that anything required to take out a capital ship is going to either be mahoosive itself, or horrendously well-armed and armoured if smaller. SDBs aren't intended as ships you take into a fleet battle: Their survivability is too small, even taking into account their higher than average manoeuvrability.

Yes, going by the list of potential threats for SDBs to consider

1) stray asteroids
2) pirates / criminals
3) cruiser raids
4) capital ships

then the book 2 scale ships would be enough for the first two and trying to defend against capital ships is probably not cost-effective so it it's just a question of whether or not an SDB capable of seeing off 2-4 raiding cruisers was worthwhile around each gas giant - at least in the most important systems. Although in that case they might as well be an orbital station I guess.

 

[CliffBates]

Regarding Fleet structures, I found this on a Traveller fan site and although I might quip here or there (the lack of a TankRon/AuxRon for example), I am giving you the url to go check:

http://www.trisen.com/sol/default.asp?topic=10&page=21

Also that same site had some interesting thoughts on Squadron numbers following from the data taken from counters from GDW FFW. Here is the url:

http://www.trisen.com/sol/default.asp?topic=10&page=28

 

[Redcap]

Yes, going by the list of potential threats for SDBs to consider

1) stray asteroids
2) pirates / criminals
3) cruiser raids
4) capital ships

then the book 2 scale ships would be enough for the first two and trying to defend against capital ships is probably not cost-effective so it it's just a question of whether or not an SDB capable of seeing off 2-4 raiding cruisers was worthwhile around each gas giant - at least in the most important systems. Although in that case they might as well be an orbital station I guess.

True; besides which, and given my massive misconception over the differences between sector and subsector fleet sizes and taskings, they're no longer a part of the 130th OrBat.

Regarding Fleet structures, I found this on a Traveller fan site and although I might quip here or there (the lack of a TankRon/AuxRon for example), I am giving you the url to go check:

http://www.trisen.com/sol/default.asp?topic=10&page=21

Also that same site had some interesting thoughts on Squadron numbers following from the data taken from counters from GDW FFW. Here is the url:

http://www.trisen.com/sol/default.asp?topic=10&page=28

Interesting; doesn't disagree too much with Sector Fleet or Book 6, and the section on the 3277th Lift Marine Regiment (TL15) was hemlpful too

 

[Redcap]

So, having properly read the OrBat pages relating to fleet compositions (MgT Sector Fleet, pp132-133), I had thoroughly over-loaded the local subsector fleet; according to what's in MgT Sector Fleet, battleships and similar assets are reserved to Sector, not subsector, fleet BatRons. As a result, BB/VTB assets have been deleted from the 130th bar one Grendal class BB, which is the subsector flagship. Given the Brig on Rampart, I've attached the 1027th Marine Exeditionary Battalion to the 130th as a security asset, with it's transport equipment.

We now have the final version of the 130th's OrBat, which I present for comment, suggestion, and critique

Be gentle

+++

The 130th Fleet is primarily tasked with border security of the spinward-facing borders of the Reft sector along the Limon, Moibin, and Arcrant subsectors, this in addition to it's regular internal patrolling, policing, anti-pricacy, and other taskins. As a result, significant variances in its OrBat were made from the more usual OrBat, in order to to facilitate it's duties.

These changes include it's being rather heavy inclusion of cruiser class vessels, with its patrol assets beefed up considerably from corvette-sized Close Escorts to Scout Cruisers, instead. Primarily, this is due to the proximity of the Reft, with it's paucity of fuel-bearing star systems. The rationale was thus for maximum endurance and sustainability between replenishments, along with better jump performance, and the better ability, compared to a close escort, to hold their own against unexpected forces, should they be encountered while conducting solo patrols.

in addition, it's Destroyer contingent was significantly reinforced, due to the replacement of the more usually expected Chrysanthamum class destroyer escorts with Longbow class DDs instead. While slightly lesser in performance, the Longbows are a more recent design, better armed, and more readily able to punch through an enemy's defences.

Additionally, a Marine Expeditionary Batallion with it's organic Naval Troop Transport asset was attached to the fleet. Based at Rampart, in addition to it's more usual fleet and training duties, it's tasked with supporting the Naval Brig in that system in case of trouble. Thus far, over the last hundred years of the Brig being established there, the Battallion has not been required to fulfil that role. It should be noted that the inclusion of it's Maxwell calss troop transport, while appearing at first to be vastly over-sized for it's Force Structure, is also used for military aid to the civilian populations (MAC) role, as an immediate evacuation aid (for instance, in the event of natural disasters) should the need arise.

+++

130th Imperial Subsector (Border Security) Fleet
Motto: "Vigilant Protection"

Flag Squadron (Home Base: Reft 2738 Cyril)
• 1 Grendal Class BB Battleship
• 1 Metlay Class EA Fleet Escort
• 3 Reckless Errand Class EL Close Escorts
• 1 Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ship

Subsector Destroyer Flotilla
• 8 Kendal Craig Class Fleet Destroyers grouped as 2 squadrons, primarily for Subsector security patrols
• 8 Longbow Class Destroyers deployed independently, primarily for merchant route protection.

Subsector Patrol Assets
• 20 Nam Pak Class CS Scout Cruisers, grouped administratively as 5 flotillas of 4 ships each, but deployed individually for border and near-border patrols.

Subsector Logistics Assets (Fleet Train)
• 1 x AZT class Rift Tanker (NO SPECS!)
• 4 x Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ships
• 3 x Globus Class Fleet Replenishment
• 2 x Workhorse Class Bulk Ordnance Carrier
• 2 x Panam Ajax class Logistics Transport
• 5 x Mercury Class Long Range Fleet Courier

1027th Imperial Marine Expeditionary Force
1 x Maxwell Class IA Troop Transport​

 

[McPerth]

130th Imperial Subsector (Border Security) Fleet
Motto: "Vigilant Protection"

Flag Squadron (Home Base: Reft 2738 Cyril)
• 1 Grendal Class BB Battleship
• 1 Metlay Class EA Fleet Escort
• 3 Reckless Errand Class EL Close Escorts
• 1 Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ship

Subsector Destroyer Flotilla
• 8 Kendal Craig Class Fleet Destroyers grouped as 2 squadrons, primarily for Subsector security patrols
• 8 Longbow Class Destroyers deployed independently, primarily for merchant route protection.

Subsector Patrol Assets
• 20 Nam Pak Class CS Scout Cruisers, grouped administratively as 5 flotillas of 4 ships each, but deployed individually for border and near-border patrols.

Subsector Logistics Assets (Fleet Train)
• 1 x AZT class Rift Tanker (NO SPECS!)
• 4 x Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ships
• 3 x Globus Class Fleet Replenishment
• 2 x Workhorse Class Bulk Ordnance Carrier
• 2 x Panam Ajax class Logistics Transport
• 5 x Mercury Class Long Range Fleet Courier

1027th Imperial Marine Expeditionary Force
1 x Maxwell Class IA Troop Transport​

First thoughts here:

• I feel a lack of heavy punch in this fleet (only one BB). I understand this is a fleet for a sector with limited threats and area to cover, but I guess it should be stronguer in it, if only to show the flag.
• I also see most ships are J6. I don't see the need of it, as they cannot go further into the rift with it, while quite limiting their other capabilities. As you need 2 jumps even with J6, see that J5 would equally allow you to reach the Islands from Eskandor (3028) to Amondiage (2325), and J5 also from Quilver (2534) to Joyeuse (1628). Only in fuel and JD (ignoring engineer requirements and other minors) J5 will free 11% of your volumen, and J4 22%, that could be best used for better MD/Agility or more payload.
• I see most of the ships are under M4 (so under what's assumed in many canon sources as the Imperial Standard) and with low agility, what makes them very vulnerable in combat.
• The Longbow class destroyers, with 3g and no marines might not be the best ships for merchant route protection (so I guess anti-piracy operations), as they cannot board ships, nor take a base (while they can obliterate it, Little intelligence will be won on it). Also its low MD/agility (further degraded if using the BG) and lack of armor (partially compensated by the same BG) will make them less than ideal.

 

[CliffBates]

So, having properly read the OrBat pages relating to fleet compositions (MgT Sector Fleet, pp132-133), I had thoroughly over-loaded the local subsector fleet; according to what's in MgT Sector Fleet, battleships and similar assets are reserved to Sector, not subsector, fleet BatRons. As a result, BB/VTB assets have been deleted from the 130th bar one Grendal class BB, which is the subsector flagship. Given the Brig on Rampart, I've attached the 1027th Marine Exeditionary Battalion to the 130th as a security asset, with it's transport equipment.

We now have the final version of the 130th's OrBat, which I present for comment, suggestion, and critique

Be gentle

+++

The 130th Fleet is primarily tasked with border security of the spinward-facing borders of the Reft sector along the Limon, Moibin, and Arcrant subsectors, this in addition to it's regular internal patrolling, policing, anti-pricacy, and other taskins. As a result, significant variances in its OrBat were made from the more usual OrBat, in order to to facilitate it's duties.

These changes include it's being rather heavy inclusion of cruiser class vessels, with its patrol assets beefed up considerably from corvette-sized Close Escorts to Scout Cruisers, instead. Primarily, this is due to the proximity of the Reft, with it's paucity of fuel-bearing star systems. The rationale was thus for maximum endurance and sustainability between replenishments, along with better jump performance, and the better ability, compared to a close escort, to hold their own against unexpected forces, should they be encountered while conducting solo patrols.

in addition, it's Destroyer contingent was significantly reinforced, due to the replacement of the more usually expected Chrysanthamum class destroyer escorts with Longbow class DDs instead. While slightly lesser in performance, the Longbows are a more recent design, better armed, and more readily able to punch through an enemy's defences.

Additionally, a Marine Expeditionary Batallion with it's organic Naval Troop Transport asset was attached to the fleet. Based at Rampart, in addition to it's more usual fleet and training duties, it's tasked with supporting the Naval Brig in that system in case of trouble. Thus far, over the last hundred years of the Brig being established there, the Battallion has not been required to fulfil that role. It should be noted that the inclusion of it's Maxwell calss troop transport, while appearing at first to be vastly over-sized for it's Force Structure, is also used for military aid to the civilian populations (MAC) role, as an immediate evacuation aid (for instance, in the event of natural disasters) should the need arise.

+++

130th Imperial Subsector (Border Security) Fleet
Motto: "Vigilant Protection"

Flag Squadron (Home Base: Reft 2738 Cyril)
• 1 Grendal Class BB Battleship
• 1 Metlay Class EA Fleet Escort
• 3 Reckless Errand Class EL Close Escorts
• 1 Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ship

Subsector Destroyer Flotilla
• 8 Kendal Craig Class Fleet Destroyers grouped as 2 squadrons, primarily for Subsector security patrols
• 8 Longbow Class Destroyers deployed independently, primarily for merchant route protection.

Subsector Patrol Assets
• 20 Nam Pak Class CS Scout Cruisers, grouped administratively as 5 flotillas of 4 ships each, but deployed individually for border and near-border patrols.

Subsector Logistics Assets (Fleet Train)
• 1 x AZT class Rift Tanker (NO SPECS!)
• 4 x Dromedary Class AZA Tanker/Replenishment Ships
• 3 x Globus Class Fleet Replenishment
• 2 x Workhorse Class Bulk Ordnance Carrier
• 2 x Panam Ajax class Logistics Transport
• 5 x Mercury Class Long Range Fleet Courier

1027th Imperial Marine Expeditionary Force
1 x Maxwell Class IA Troop Transport​

Roger I agree with McPerth that there is just not enough punch to it... but could this be the colonial reserve Fleet not the main Imperial Fleet? I could see the Reserved/Colonial Fleet that every subsector has along with an Imperial numbered Fleet.. especially for a frontier subsector.

 

[Redcap]

Thanks for the observations, folks; I was originally going to include a fair number of BB/VTBs, but then read Sector Fleet, and saw the layout for a typical subsector fleet; remember, the 130th is NOT the sector (named) fleet, it's a numbered (subsector) fleet. Sector fleets are the major muscle to met with, and destroy, all major threats to the Imperium (such as invaders etc), according to MgT SF, with subsector fleets taking up the slack for (basically) internal security and policing actions (such as border patrol).

With that all in mind, the OrBat was substantially changed to comply with those guidelines; if you have MgT SF, it's on pages 132-133.

I think it tends to make sense, but it's not, obviously, Book 5, or TCS. Remember also that I'm setting this in the GURPS/Lorenverse setting, not the MT+ rebellion setting, which I frankly don't agree with: ONE (all be it well-organised) lunatic setting the galaxy on fire? After you with the paxo, and all that; there were too many checks and balances, even then, for it to go off as suggested in MT. Ahem. Anyhow, it's set in late 1115, maybe early 1116, so for those happy with the MT+ setting, it's just before Dulinor went nutso, so no major threats aside from piracy exist, and the 3I is getting it's act back after the FFW.

Comments?

 

[CliffBates]

1027th Imperial Marine Expeditionary Force
1 x Maxwell Class IA Troop Transport[/INDENT]

The Marines in the OTU have Task Forces that operate as a Battalion and that is spelled out by Loren Wiseman TAS 12 articles (pg 42-45). The Task Force is a Battalion strength unit commanded by Force Commander (either O4-O5) That article give an good picture the organization of a Marine Task Force--being 1220 men and 64 vehicles.

So the question the your IMETF not only have a ships to transport it, but also troop and cargo landers and not to mention support ships as well. The Naval Units supporting this Marine Force ought to be some Ortillary platforms to give needed fire support to the Task Force.

The Maxwell Class Troop Transport is way too be for an Task Force, its to move regiments and Marine although have regimental commands they tend to operationally deploy as Task Forces as Wiseman article suggests. Also do you want to put all your eggs in one basket? I would go with 5 smaller Troop transports that could offer needed fire support to the unit. Also have it should have 2 or 3 HURON CLASS BOMBARDMENT CRUISER – TL 13 (found in Fighting Ship Traveller's Aide #7 of the D10 series pg 30). Also as Marines like to have their own air-support--3-4 squadrons of fighter/bombers so either your transports will have the ability to host one squadron in it or else have a light strike Carrier assigned to it. Actually Why not have an full AssultRon that the Task Force operates with?

 

[Redcap]

Good points, well presented (being an ex-reservist grunt MP, I don't know stuff-all about amphib ops!). I'll get right on that