Four new Ships in Honor of TravellerCon

[GameDaddy]

Starships of the Fringe Subsector

 
Kamman Class Mining Platform TL-12 (Mobile Class B Starport)
The Kamman class mining platform is the ultimate in Interstellar mining vessels allowing for extended supported mining operations in remote unpopulated star systems. With a Jump 3 capability as well as onboard fuel scoops, a complete Ore Refinery with a full set of machine shops, as well as a full Petrochemical Refinery, the Kamman class mining platform can also serve as a temporary stardock, with built in services to refuel and repair other starships.

Shipyards - Zaysuf Merchant Marine, Inc.
Mass 50,000 Tons
Hull Configuration - Dispersed Structure 7 Price -50%
Jump Drive - 3 - 6,000 Tons 24,000 Mcr
Maneuver Drive 3- 5,500 Tons, 2,750 Mcr
Power Plant 3 - 4,500 Tons, 13,500 Mcr
Fuel Tanks - Powerplant 3,000 Tons (Jump Drives)
Manuever Drives 300 Tons (8 Weeks)
Bridge - 1,000 Tons 5 Mcr
EP 1,500
3x Computer Type 6 - 21 Tons, 165 Mcr, 3 Ep
100x Triple Missile Laser - 1 Ton, 225 Mcr
100x Triple Beam Laser - 1 Ton, 300 Mcr, 100 Ep
100x Triple Sandcaster - 1 Ton, 75 Mcr
Staterooms x 1200 - 4.800 Tons, 4,800 Mcr
20x Galley - 400 Tons, 200 Mcr, 20 Ep
20 x Rec Room - 400 Tons, 400 Mcr, 20 Ep
20x Gym - 800 Tons, 400 Mcr, 20 Ep
10x Ship's Locker, 100 Tons, 100 Mcr
Churastra Class Cutter 50 Tons, 37.7 Mcr
Ore Refinery 1,500 Tons, 6,500 Mcr, 100 Ep
Petrocehmical Refinery 1,000 Tons, 5,000 Mcr, 50 Ep
Cargo - 20,329 Tons
Crew 947 (Captain x1, Pilot x3, Navigator x3, Gunner x30, Engineer x460, Refinery Engineers x150, Petroleum Engineers x100, Steward x4, Doctors x6 Medic x20 2, Security Colonel x1, Security Captain x3, Security Lieutenants x12, Security x140)
Passengers -53
Maneuver 3
Agility 0
Total Cost : 58,057,000,000 Cr
Build Time - 84 Months
 
Fojestra Class Merchant Vessel TL-12
The Fojestra merchant vessels are a common sight in the Fringe Subsector plying their trade from system to system and world-to-world. The streamlined designed and rotating maneuver drive thrusters provide the Fojestra class merchant cruiser a Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) capability that makes them extremely popular especially among small independent merchant traders.

Shipyards - Arego Technologies, Inc.
Mass 1,000 Tons
Hull Configuration Flattened Sphere 6 Price -20% + 1 Mcr (Streamlined)
Jump Drive - 3 - 40 Tons 160 Mcr
Maneuver Drive 3- 80 Tons, 40 Mcr
Power Plant 3 - 90 Tons, 270 Mcr
Fuel Tanks - Powerplant 18 Tons (8 weeks)
Jump Drives 300 Tons
Bridge - 20 Tons .5 Mcr
EP 121.2
Computer Type 3 - 3 Tons, 18 Mcr, 1 Ep
4x Triple Missile Laser - 1 Ton, 9 Mcr
4x Triple Beam Laser - 1 Ton, 12 Mcr, 4 Ep
2x Triple Sandcaster - 1 Ton, .5 Mcr
Staterooms x 30 - 120 Tons, 60 Mcr
Galley - 10 Tons, 5 Mcr, 1 Ep
Rec Room - 20 Tons, 10 Mcr, 1 Ep
Gym - 20 Tons, 10 Mcr, 1 Ep
Ship's Locker, 10 Tons, 10 Mcr
Churastra Class Cutter 50 Tons, 37.7 Mcr
Cargo - 200 Tons
Crew 22(Captain x1, Pilot x1, Navigator x1, Gunner x3, Engineer x6, Steward x4, Medic 2, Security Officer x1, Security x3)
Passengers -22
Maneuver 3
Agility 6
Total Cost : 763.7 Mcr
Build Time - 36 Months
 

Starcloud Class Light Deepspace Fighter Carrier
CL-8122232-400000-6000C-1 TL-12
Shipyards - Neutron Armory Stardocks, Inc.
Mass 800 Tons
Hull Configuration - Wedge 1 Price +20% Streamlined for atmospheric reentry
Jump Drive - 2 - 24 Tons, 96 Mcr
Maneuver Drive 2 - 40 Tons, 28 Mcr
Power Plant 2 - 48 Tons, 144 Mcr
Fuel Tanks - Powerplant 16 Tons (4 weeks)
Jump Drives 160 Tons
Bridge - 20 Tons .5 Mcr
EP 16
Computer Type 4- 4 Tons, 30 Mcr, 2 Ep
Armor 4 - 16 Tons, 8 Mcr
4x Triple Missile Laser - 4 Tons, 9 Mcr
2x Triple Beam Laser - 2 Tons, 6 Mcr, 6 Ep
2x Triple Sandcaster - 2 Ton, 4.5 Mcr
Staterooms x 27 - 108 Tons, 54 Mcr
Galley - 8 Tons, 4 Mcr, 1 Ep
Lounge- 12 Tons, 6 Mcr, 3 Ep
4x Chevalier Class Long Range Fighter 50 Tons, 64.5 Mcr each
Cargo - 32 Tons
Crew 41 (Captain x1, Pilot x2, Navigator x3, Gunner x8, Engineer x4, Steward x5, Doctors x1 Medic x1, Fighter Pilot x4,Fighter Gunners x4, Fighter Security Chiefs x4, Fighter Medics x4)
Passengers -0
40 Low Berths - 20 Tons, 1 Mcr
Grav Carrier - 8 Tons, 1 Mcr
Speeder x2 - 12 Tons, 2 Mcr
Air/Raft x2 - 8 Tons, 1.2 Mcr
Maneuver 2
Agility 0
Total Cost : 672.84 Mcr
Build Time - 36 Months

 
Chevalier Class Long Range Fighter
FF-0106634-000000-20001-0 TL-12
Shipyards - Neutron Armory Stardocks, Inc.
Mass 50 Tons
Hull Configuration - Wedge 1 Price +20% Streamlined for atmospheric reentry
Maneuver Drive 6- 8.5 Tons, 4.25 Mcr
Power Plant 6 - 9 Tons, 27 Mcr
Fuel Tanks - Powerplant 3 Tons (4 weeks)
Bridge - 10 Tons, .25 Mcr
EP 3
Computer Type 3- 3 Tons, 18 Mcr, 1 Ep
Missile Launcher - 1 Ton, .75 Mcr
2x Beam Laser - 2 Tons, 2 Mcr, 2 Ep
4x Passenger Acceleration Couch + Life Support -2 Tons, .1 Mcr
4x Small Craft Staterooms - 8 Tons, .4 Mcr
Cargo - 3.5 Tons
Crew 4 - Pilot, Gunner, Security Chiefs, Medic
Passengers -4
Maneuver - 6
Agility 0
Total Cost : 64.5 Mcr
Build Time - 36 Months

 

[McPerth]

There are no maintenance crews?

And in the case of the Kamman class, only 4 stewards to keep for all the crew (nearly 1000 persons). That would be just a small bar/cafee to a 1000 people town...

Even the Starcloud, with only 41 crew, has 5 stewards.

 

[atpollard]

What system are they designed with?

 

[McPerth]

What system are they designed with?

Not sure. The fact it uses EPs made me think it used CT:HG (though slightly modified, as there are elemnts not appearing in CT:HG AFAIK).

In any case, regardless the versión, I guess the Galleys, rec romos, gym, etc need to be serviced by someone (probably stewards or service crew), and with only 4 stewards and no service crew, I guess they will be quite busy.

 

[Carlobrand]

There are no maintenance crews?

And in the case of the Kamman class, only 4 stewards to keep for all the crew (nearly 1000 persons). That would be just a small bar/cafee to a 1000 people town....

That's what the 140 security officers are for: to make sure everyone takes their turn at the dishes.

 

[GameDaddy]

hrmmm??? Designed with High Guard.

The Stewards are just there for the Deck Officers, you know, The Captain, Navigator, Pilots, Doctors, Security Captains, and their guests are provided services from the ships stewards...

For everyone else there are 19 other galleys aboard, the crew organizes a schedule to serve themselves... It's in the employment contract.

Got a new idea from this though, for some flashy system defense boat style restaurant ships...

 

[McPerth]

hrmmm??? Designed with High Guard.

The Stewards are just there for the Deck Officers, you know, The Captain, Navigator, Pilots, Doctors, Security Captains, and their guests are provided services from the ships stewards...

For everyone else there are 19 other galleys aboard, the crew organizes a schedule to serve themselves... It's in the employment contract.

Got a new idea from this though, for some flashy system defense boat style restaurant ships...

IIRC (I don't have it handy right now) HG required 2-3 maintenance crew per 1000 dton, and I guess most stewards and carers for the Rec Rooms etc. are taken from there, as well as a miriad of other "minor" tasks.

 

[rancke]

IIRC (I don't have it handy right now) HG required 2-3 maintenance crew per 1000 dton, and I guess most stewards and carers for the Rec Rooms etc. are taken from there, as well as a miriad of other "minor" tasks.

I'm not sure it would apply to Traveller starships, but (wet) military ships do tend to carry bigger crews than merchant ships, and the Kamman class is a civilian ship whereas the HG manning rules are for military ships.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

I'm trying to figure out why a mining platform is so heavily armed. If there were threats in the system wouldn't sending in naval ships or defense boats take care of the problem? I'd think a mining platform would be focused on two things:

Mining
Making a profit.

Weapons add lots of cost in crew and equipment for very little or no return.

The same can be said for giving it permanent jump capacity. Why? You get it some where to process ore and such and it sits for years. Better it has something like a transfer module to jump it there or it is modular and assembled on site from components delivered by jump capable freighters. Maneuver 1 should be sufficient too. Why the better maneuverability?

 

[Carlobrand]

...For everyone else there are 19 other galleys aboard, the crew organizes a schedule to serve themselves... [/I]

See? I told you!

... and the Kamman class is a civilian ship whereas the HG manning rules are for military ships.


Hans

I hadn't ever thought of that. High Guard certainly seems to assume you're working with a military ship, the way it mentions the Naval Line, Technical Services, Crew branch, and so forth. However, the Jump Ship (the only sizable nonmilitary ship in Supplement 9) appears to be applying those rules, although it's hard to tell because I can't get things to quite match up to the Supplement 9 values and the crew are not detailed. I get 35, it wants 38.

There's no reason not to apply High Guard to engineering. Beyond that, I'd use it as a general guideline and leave decisions up to the designer. A merchantman would not want so much payroll in the command staff, for example: no need for a dedicated communications officer when the ship isn't coordinating with a squadron and auxiliaries, the XO can double as a navigator, and so forth. And while it's nice to provide a cooked meal to everyone, it's not the only way to do things.

Still, this is a 50,000 dT ship with almost a thousand organic sapients wandering its halls. Regarding the Service section, the rules state, "The ship itself may have a requirement for other sections which provide basic services, including shops and storage, security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard), maintenance, food service, and other operations." If the plan is to stock the ship with "Hungry-Man" frozen dinners and have the crew take turns at KP (someone's gotta clean out the microwave every once in a while), that's fine, but it still might be advisable to have a few people in Services to handle procurement and supervision of ship's stores (by which I mean food, cleaning supplies, bedsheets, towels and all the other supplies that aren't generally noticed until you run out of them), to make sure the janitorial bots are mopping halls and galleys regularly and the dryer filters get cleaned periodically ('cause you know most of these eggheads are going to forget), to supervise those gyms to prevent accidents and so forth. Maybe half the usual Services complement would do.

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm trying to figure out why a mining platform is so heavily armed. If there were threats in the system wouldn't sending in naval ships or defense boats take care of the problem? I'd think a mining platform would be focused on two things:

Mining
Making a profit.

Weapons add lots of cost in crew and equipment for very little or no return.

The same can be said for giving it permanent jump capacity. Why? You get it some where to process ore and such and it sits for years. Better it has something like a transfer module to jump it there or it is modular and assembled on site from components delivered by jump capable freighters. Maneuver 1 should be sufficient too. Why the better maneuverability?

Well, the gunners could double as the absent services crew when not at their guns. Given that the vessel is for, "extended supported mining operations in remote unpopulated star systems," I don't think it can expect much support if a raider shows up to extort money from it. On the other hand, I don't think it can expect much fighting beyond the occasional raider, so there's nothing for the gunners to do between fights other than practice and play cards.

It IS very heavily armed; that level of firepower is equivalent to a squadron of destroyers. One battery of ten missile turrets and one battery of ten lasers would pretty well carve up the typical pirate like a Christmas goose, and three or four 10-turret sandcaster batteries would stop whatever the pirate can fire. Any opponent heavier than that usually means a war is in progress, and they could hire armed escorts for the duration of the war rather than arm and crew the ship for wars that only occur every couple or three generations.

Jump's a good point. There's a lot of tonnage in jump drives and jump fuel that won't be serving any purpose while the ship's busy mining, not to mention additional engineering staff that need to be fed and paid. Supplement 7 uses a jump shuttle to move its SDBs from system to system. Maybe a similar set-up could ferry the platform from system to system, so that - with a platform remaining in a given system for months at a time - one shuttle could serve several platforms, cutting down on the cost of the platform and on crew costs. That'd also help with the fueling problem since this dispersed structure has only the one 50 dT boat for refueling.

However, the numbers aren't adding up. It's carrying a Maneuver 3 but the drive masses as much as a Maneuver 4. The power plant needs 1500 dTons of fuel for 4 weeks and twice that for 8, and the jump drive needs 15,000 dTons of fuel for a jump-3, but there's only 3300 dTons of fuel showing. It's carrying 1200 staterooms for a crew of 947 and 53 passengers. Near as I can tell, it's 7700 dTons over target displacement. I also can't match the cost - I get closer to MCr40,000 singly and MCr32,000 in quantity. Are we sure this is a High Guard II design? Are there house-rule modifications?

I'm also not sure of the details. Why does a galley, rec room or gym serving about 50 people need 250 megawatts of power? That level of power could serve a small city. Why does it have both an ore refinery and a petrochem refinery? The latter would mean it only sees full use when at systems containing life-bearing planets (or planets which were once lifebearing); otherwise, that's 5 billion credits of investment that isn't doing anything for weeks or months at a time. There's also the question of bringing the petrochems up from the planet for processing with only the one cutter.

 

[McPerth]

I'm not sure it would apply to Traveller starships, but (wet) military ships do tend to carry bigger crews than merchant ships, and the Kamman class is a civilian ship whereas the HG manning rules are for military ships.

The ship is also defined as a mobile starport and repair shop, and that uses to mean crewmembers of the ships repairing (probably prospectors, the ship being a reffinery) wandering in the ship with time to spare. That alone would make need more maintenance crew (in all the senses of maintenance Carlo tells us)

 

[Theophilus]

Jump's a good point. There's a lot of tonnage in jump drives and jump fuel that won't be serving any purpose while the ship's busy mining, not to mention additional engineering staff that need to be fed and paid. Supplement 7 uses a jump shuttle to move its SDBs from system to system. Maybe a similar set-up could ferry the platform from system to system, so that - with a platform remaining in a given system for months at a time - one shuttle could serve several platforms, cutting down on the cost of the platform and on crew costs. That'd also help with the fueling problem since this dispersed structure has only the one 50 dT boat for refueling.

So, A "Battleminer", or "Battlestarport" rather than a Battlerider? Or would that make is a Minertender, and miner's? Tender drops off 3-5 miners in the system, then returns periodically to remove processed ore. Interesting Idea!!

 

[rancke]

Tender drops off 3-5 miners in the system, then returns periodically to remove processed ore. Interesting Idea!!

Now that sounds a lot more efficient. The tender's big expensive jump drives are employed ferrying ore/metal while the mining platforms work, then take them to a new system where the process is repeated.

The jump drive would be either J2 or J3. Probably J2.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

For asteroid mining in particular I prefer a model using something like fishing fleets use:

You have a large "mother ship" / factory ship that moves into the system. It is big enough to have not only a smelter / processing plant but to produce basic product. It carries a number of larger boats, say like the 50 ton cutter in CT book 7 Traders and Gunboats. The only difference is the cargo section has no room for passengers.
These boats carry 6 to 8 standard size shipping containers in the hold except the containers are autonomous mining robots. They have a grav system to move them, sensors to maneuver to position. They then attach themselves to an asteroid deemed worth mining anchoring to it with robotic arms etc. Using the grav system and a laser or other mining equipment they fill themselves with 3 tons (the other .86 tons are the propulsion, fuel cell, sensors, etc.) of ore.
The boat takes a load of mining robots out places them. It picks up a load of ones that are now loaded, returns to the factory ship unloads those, and loads a new batch of empty ones to take out for mining.
The factory ship carries maybe half a dozen to a dozen boats and hundreds of mining robots aboard.
The factory ship has minimal defenses aboard. If the system being mined is deemed "dangerous" for some reason and protection is necessary the corporation either gets the politicians in the region to supply a naval vessel or two or hires a mercenary cruiser to protect the operation.
A stock of small arms could be on the factory ship for the crew to use for self-defense in those situations but normally only a small security detachment is aboard to handle problems with the miners and crew.
The whole operation simply moves along the asteroid belt like a plague of army ants gobbling up everything worth anything in their path.

 

[Carlobrand]

For asteroid mining in particular I prefer a model using something like fishing fleets use:

You have a large "mother ship" / factory ship that moves into the system. It is big enough to have not only a smelter / processing plant but to produce basic product. It carries a number of larger boats, say like the 50 ton cutter in CT book 7 Traders and Gunboats. The only difference is the cargo section has no room for passengers.
These boats carry 6 to 8 standard size shipping containers in the hold except the containers are autonomous mining robots. They have a grav system to move them, sensors to maneuver to position. They then attach themselves to an asteroid deemed worth mining anchoring to it with robotic arms etc. Using the grav system and a laser or other mining equipment they fill themselves with 3 tons (the other .86 tons are the propulsion, fuel cell, sensors, etc.) of ore.
The boat takes a load of mining robots out places them. It picks up a load of ones that are now loaded, returns to the factory ship unloads those, and loads a new batch of empty ones to take out for mining.
The factory ship carries maybe half a dozen to a dozen boats and hundreds of mining robots aboard.
The factory ship has minimal defenses aboard. If the system being mined is deemed "dangerous" for some reason and protection is necessary the corporation either gets the politicians in the region to supply a naval vessel or two or hires a mercenary cruiser to protect the operation.
A stock of small arms could be on the factory ship for the crew to use for self-defense in those situations but normally only a small security detachment is aboard to handle problems with the miners and crew.
The whole operation simply moves along the asteroid belt like a plague of army ants gobbling up everything worth anything in their path.

A high autonomous bot is TL13. Lower tech operations will have to settle for some sort of human-supervised bot. I'm not certain a bot can tell whether an asteroid is worth mining at a robot glance. There would most likely have to be some form of prospecting before the robots could begin their work.

Assuming everything is like Earth's asteroid belt may be a mistake, but no matter how you look at it, you're dealing with huge volumes of space and large distances between individual asteroids. Average distance between Sol asteroids is more than twice the distance between Earth and its moon. "A naval vessel or two" will protect the operation at one asteroid; it could take them two or three hours for them to reach the operation at the closest neighboring asteroid. Circumstances in other star systems might be a bit better or a whole lot worse, but it's clear that protecting operations at multiple asteroids will take about as many warcraft as there are asteroids being mined.

As to your operation moving like a plague of army ants - again, it's about the scale. With hundreds of thousands of targets and a total mass on a scale with a size-1 planet, suns could burn out and collapse in the time it would take the army ants to work their way through a single asteroid belt.

 

[rancke]

As to your operation moving like a plague of army ants - again, it's about the scale. With hundreds of thousands of targets and a total mass on a scale with a size-1 planet, suns could burn out and collapse in the time it would take the army ants to work their way through a single asteroid belt.

Scale applies in another way too. If you could process an entire asteroid belt, or just a sizable fraction thereof, in a human timeframe, wouldn't you get a lot more metal than you could possibly find buyers for?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Scale applies in another way too. If you could process an entire asteroid belt, or just a sizable fraction thereof, in a human timeframe, wouldn't you get a lot more metal than you could possibly find buyers for?


Hans

Well, lessee. Typical sector population runs in the tens or hundreds of billions, Imperial population as a whole runs to the trillions - and we're talking about ore tonnage in the quadrillions or maybe quintillions of tons. So, yeah, unless each and every person really has a need for a few thousand or million tons of nickel, iron and so forth, you'd pretty well run out of market before you completed more than a tiny fraction of a percent of that belt. Typical consumption in a given sector likely hits in the tens or hundreds of billions of tons annually, and much of that will be locally produced.

And then there's the shipping.

And then there's the question of finding the capital to fund an operation on that scale in the first place. With the available capital, the typical operation isn't going to be much bigger than any other mining operation.

I always figured the real trick in asteroid mining was finding the valuable minerals hidden among all that common metal and rock and other materials, that you mined and delivered the other stuff to cover your expenses while hunting for the rare metals and radioactives that made your profit. Most of the overhead in that operation is the cost of the ships and equipment, not the cost of the people, so the edge in a heavily roboticized operation is minimal. I'm also not entirely sure how good an autonomous-level robot is going to be at prospecting, having no personal knowledge of asteroid minerology and the clues that might suggest this tunnel may be more lucrative than that tunnel. It may be that, in going robotic, you give up a slight edge in finding profitable minerals in exchange for gaining a slight edge in overhead costs, with the result that your profit margin for expanding your operation is no better than the other guy's.

Given that most systems will be able to get most of the cheap metals they need locally, exploiting out of the way systems is likely to be limited to those systems that show unusually high concentrations of rare metals or radioactives. Your scale is still going to be limited by the capital available to pursue a venture and the size of the market for the product, with the result that such ventures will look more like a colony of army ants tackling Mount Everest. And, since you can't stake a mining claim to an entire system, the discovery of such a lucrative system will soon turn an E-port system into a well-populated A/B-port system - though of course the scale of the system may still make it profitable for your mining platform-cum-starport, since you can operate well away from the established port(s).

 

[GameDaddy]

There's also the question of bringing the petrochems up from the planet for processing with only the one cutter.

Whhhaaaa?? Um no. Cutter is for crew & mail transfers.

Other larger vessels dock with the Kamman Mining Platform and transfer their ore/petrochemicals for immediate processing where establishing a permanent mining settlement is deemed too expensive. This is a Hanseatic League type of vessel put together for a small to mid-sized consortium of mining / resource extraction companies.

 

[GameDaddy]

I always figured the real trick in asteroid mining was finding the valuable minerals hidden among all that common metal and rock and other materials, that you mined and delivered the other stuff to cover your expenses while hunting for the rare metals and radioactives that made your profit.

Now this... is what a few very light and fast and good mining Survey /Scout vessels would be used for... Hmmm, another design for me to work on... obviously needed for this type of mining operation, Thank You.


Mea Culpa on the Jump Drive fuel error, I'd probably redesign the drives for J2, take out some of the extra 200 staterooms, use some of the extra cargo space, and add a bit of mass if necessary then use this as a J2 mining/refueling stardock. Some of the space from those extra staterooms would also be used for a few larger lounges, recreation areas, and observation decks too.

I would not remove the station armament, The crew needs to be independent and secure from most of the basic piracy threats, and any weakening of the defenses would only encourage pirates to come up with a plan to hijack this fairly expensive vessel.

Revenues are generated from:
1) Mining ops where processed ores and petrochemicals are stored on the platform until a conveniently empty league or guild cargo ship arrives to carry the metals, radioactives, and petrochemicals to nearby more heavily populated star systems

2) Processing Minerals, Ore, and Petrochemicals for small and midsized Independent mining organizations that is immediately reloaded onto the Indy boats so they can deliver some processed resources to niche markets for better profits and returns.

3) The repair and refueling ops for Indy boats operating near the station also generates a respectible revenue if enough Indies are aware of the opportunities available for working with a merchant league station such as this...

One other thing that I have overlooked is using robots for some of the routine maintenance and steward duties that would be required on board...

Towelbot 3.0 reporting for duty!

"I'm sorry sir, You are cutoff as the robo-bartender has determined that you have exceeded your safe alcohol consumption for today... Please return immediately to your bunk and sleep it off!"

Oh, and nothing like having a few extra dysfunctional or malfunctioning bots in this batch to liven things up as well!