Fuel Purification Plant

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Canon vs. vector math: vector math wins.

Are you disputing the Escape Velocity rule?

Is not the movement formula in Book 2 Space Combat vector math?

Set your 1G vessel on a 1G world and use that formula to lift off. Tell me how far you get using that vector math expression.

Yes; yes; orbit.

To the second question: Book 2 is not vector math, it is a simplified vector movement ruleset.

To the third question: when I throw a ball, do I have to accelerate it faster than 1G? No. I can use any acceleration to impart an initial velocity vector. Gravity just says that ball will follow a path that accelerates "downward."

Any means that imparts an initial velocity will get the ship off the ground. Once airborn a ship can use lift to counteract the acceleration of gravity.

Yes, almost any shape can generate aerodynamic lift. The lift/drag ratio may be below 1 for particularly offensive hull shapes, but as long as your acceleration can overcome the drag you will slowly increase in speed and stay above the cumulo-granite clouds.

Now we merely have to impart that initial velocity. If planet gravity is above ship's G rating a take-off roll, a jump ramp, a launch tube, a proper mass vs volume rule (raises G rating for lighter loads), or a limited duration over-drive would all suffice.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Now we merely have to impart that initial velocity. If planet gravity is above ship's G rating a take-off roll, a jump ramp, a launch tube, a proper mass vs volume rule (raises G rating for lighter loads), or a limited duration over-drive would all suffice.

If a Type A Beowulf class is sitting on a Size 9 world with a Class X starport, how does the Free Trader lift and make it out to the jump point?

(Let's stick with CT rules and leave M-Drive "overdrives" to MT.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Now we merely have to impart that initial velocity. If planet gravity is above ship's G rating a take-off roll, a jump ramp, a launch tube, a proper mass vs volume rule (raises G rating for lighter loads), or a limited duration over-drive would all suffice.

If a Type A Beowulf class is sitting on a Size 9 world with a Class X starport, how does the Free Trader lift and make it out to the jump point?

(Let's stick with CT rules and leave M-Drive "overdrives" to MT.)

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Straybow:
a proper mass vs volume rule (raises G rating for lighter loads)

Reduce your load, increase G performance of the drive.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Reduce your load, increase G performance of the drive.

What if your drive's G performance is 1G when the vessel is unloaded?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Reduce your load, increase G performance of the drive.

What if your drive's G performance is 1G when the vessel is unloaded?

 

[atpollard]

With the obvious exception of class E and class X starports, could a starport launch/landing pad "repulsor" push the ship upward with enough of a nudge to overcome the 1G drive/1.2G local gravity problem? Standard equipment on large world ground ports?

As an aside, how is this in any way related to Puel Purification?

 

[atpollard]

With the obvious exception of class E and class X starports, could a starport launch/landing pad "repulsor" push the ship upward with enough of a nudge to overcome the 1G drive/1.2G local gravity problem? Standard equipment on large world ground ports?

As an aside, how is this in any way related to Puel Purification?

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Why not have a fuel purifier for (A) when the main world orbits the GG (like Regina), but more importantly...(B) A fuel purifier would allow merchants to save 400Cr per ton at downports by buying unrefined fuel and purifying it themselves.

Fuel purifiers are relatively cheap. They don't take up that much space.

Why wouldn't a civilian ship have one for this sole reason?

The simplest reason is that selling refined fuel is a major cash cow for the starport. Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

In essence, it is the same reason that food costs so much at a movie theatre or amusement park compared to the local McDonalds. The only choice is "take it or leave it".

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Why not have a fuel purifier for (A) when the main world orbits the GG (like Regina), but more importantly...(B) A fuel purifier would allow merchants to save 400Cr per ton at downports by buying unrefined fuel and purifying it themselves.

Fuel purifiers are relatively cheap. They don't take up that much space.

Why wouldn't a civilian ship have one for this sole reason?

The simplest reason is that selling refined fuel is a major cash cow for the starport. Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

In essence, it is the same reason that food costs so much at a movie theatre or amusement park compared to the local McDonalds. The only choice is "take it or leave it".

 

[far-trader]

To your second question, I'm not exactly sure anymore

The thread does seem to have gone Hydra.

To the first I was thinking along the same lines, because I was recalling the old Dragon article "Exonidas(?) Downport" for Traveller (or some such, around iss. 81 I think) and it's description of the landing field being an array of repulsor/tractors for just that purpose. Assisting ships (and cargo iirc) into orbit and down. In fact I seem to remember it saying the locals wouldn't let you come down on your own, they handled it all from the ground and you had to sit and ride as standby Pilot only in case of failure on the ground. I was going to look up the article to see in the planet was a heavy G world or not.

In any case, yes, high tech high class starports could very well have assists such as repulsor fields. But then we wouldn't be worried about not finding a high port at such a place either.

 

[far-trader]

To your second question, I'm not exactly sure anymore

The thread does seem to have gone Hydra.

To the first I was thinking along the same lines, because I was recalling the old Dragon article "Exonidas(?) Downport" for Traveller (or some such, around iss. 81 I think) and it's description of the landing field being an array of repulsor/tractors for just that purpose. Assisting ships (and cargo iirc) into orbit and down. In fact I seem to remember it saying the locals wouldn't let you come down on your own, they handled it all from the ground and you had to sit and ride as standby Pilot only in case of failure on the ground. I was going to look up the article to see in the planet was a heavy G world or not.

In any case, yes, high tech high class starports could very well have assists such as repulsor fields. But then we wouldn't be worried about not finding a high port at such a place either.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by far-trader:
But then we wouldn't be worried about not finding a high port at such a place either.

I agree. For me, it seems a far easier solution for a High G world to provide a 2G shuttle to and from orbit to serve 1G ships. All it takes is one local able to afford a modular cutter and willing to trade credits for rides. Don't the rules say something like 100 Credits per Person or dTon cargo for taxi service to/from orbit? For a low volume port, an occasional side trip to the gas giant lets you offer unrefined fuel at 100 Cr per dTon (saving the starship a trip to the GG) and a 1 week trip yields an extra 3000 Cr of pocket money. It is even easier if you can just use the world's oceans to scoop fuel.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The simplest reason is that selling refined fuel is a major cash cow for the starport. Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

While this makes a certain economic sense (in the way that, to pick an example entirely at random, so does shipping cargo and passengers at "per parsec" rates rather than "per jump"), it is not exactly a "trade-friendly" policy to further gouge the poor Traders whom the planetary government is ostensibly trying to court.

Furthermore, there's nothing in CT that says "only refined fuel is available" at Starports A or B; it's "only unrefined fuel is available" at Starports C or D; as a result, the rule implies that unrefined fuel is the default -- always available if fuel is available.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The simplest reason is that selling refined fuel is a major cash cow for the starport. Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

While this makes a certain economic sense (in the way that, to pick an example entirely at random, so does shipping cargo and passengers at "per parsec" rates rather than "per jump"), it is not exactly a "trade-friendly" policy to further gouge the poor Traders whom the planetary government is ostensibly trying to court.

Furthermore, there's nothing in CT that says "only refined fuel is available" at Starports A or B; it's "only unrefined fuel is available" at Starports C or D; as a result, the rule implies that unrefined fuel is the default -- always available if fuel is available.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by far-trader:
In any case, yes, high tech high class starports could very well have assists such as repulsor fields. But then we wouldn't be worried about not finding a high port at such a place either.

I concur.

A repulsor bay typically engages 50 missiles each in the 100kg range; that's 5 tonnes. Oversimplifying a mass-momentum-displacement equivalence, that's a synchronized super-battery of maybe 20 factor-5 repulsor bays needed for each 100 dtons you're looking to boost.

Any planet that's high-enough TL to pull that off will already have a Starport C+, and therefore a highport (or at least shuttle service), regardless of planetary Size.

So, as you note, the point is mooted.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by far-trader:
In any case, yes, high tech high class starports could very well have assists such as repulsor fields. But then we wouldn't be worried about not finding a high port at such a place either.

I concur.

A repulsor bay typically engages 50 missiles each in the 100kg range; that's 5 tonnes. Oversimplifying a mass-momentum-displacement equivalence, that's a synchronized super-battery of maybe 20 factor-5 repulsor bays needed for each 100 dtons you're looking to boost.

Any planet that's high-enough TL to pull that off will already have a Starport C+, and therefore a highport (or at least shuttle service), regardless of planetary Size.

So, as you note, the point is mooted.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
As an aside, how is this in any way related to Puel Purification?

Well, you see, there are three types of fuel used in the Traveller universe. Unrefined fuel and refined fuel have about the same weight, but a new technology is on the scene. This purification process not only produces a fuel interchangeable with refined fuel, but it also changes the state of the fuel so that it is no longer a liquid, but a gas.

This "lighter than air" fuel decreases the weight of a starship allowing it's 1G maneuver drive to push the ship off even a Size 10 world.

Since the fuel is refined using a secret and patented purification process, we call this new starship go-go juice:

PUEL

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
As an aside, how is this in any way related to Puel Purification?

Well, you see, there are three types of fuel used in the Traveller universe. Unrefined fuel and refined fuel have about the same weight, but a new technology is on the scene. This purification process not only produces a fuel interchangeable with refined fuel, but it also changes the state of the fuel so that it is no longer a liquid, but a gas.

This "lighter than air" fuel decreases the weight of a starship allowing it's 1G maneuver drive to push the ship off even a Size 10 world.

Since the fuel is refined using a secret and patented purification process, we call this new starship go-go juice:

PUEL

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Furthermore, there's nothing in CT that says "only refined fuel is available" at Starports A or B; it's "only unrefined fuel is available" at Starports C or D; as a result, the rule implies that unrefined fuel is the default -- always available if fuel is available.

I agree with you. That was just the simplest reason why purifiers would not be economical in a merchant ship.

I would go even further and ask why every starport of TL 8+ (or with access to a TL 8+ world) does not have a fuel purifier (less than Cr 40,000) and sell Refined Fuel. That's like building a small airport for millions of credits, but not being able to afford a fence around it or a warehouse near it.

With refined fuel everywhere, some merchants might decide that it is better to add another high passenger instead of a fuel purifier. For the Military, the ability to refuel in remote locations is a tactical necessity that justifies a purifier in every ship.