Fuel Purification Plant

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
This purification process not only produces a fuel interchangeable with refined fuel, but it also changes the state of the fuel so that it is no longer a liquid, but a gas.

This "lighter than air" fuel decreases the weight of a starship allowing it's 1G maneuver drive to push the ship off even a Size 10 world.

But, seriously, though. Starship use liquid hydrogen for fuel.

I wonder why hydrogen gas isn't used? In an internal combustion engine, the process is that gasoline is turned to vapor, and that's what really drives our cars.

Why not store LHyd as a gas? It seems it would a heck of a lot lighter.

EDIT: Help me with my science here. (Not my best subject.) I know that hydrogen is one of the lightest gases known, but would the same volume of liquid hydrogen weigh the same as that of hydrogen gas? Need help with basic science...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
This purification process not only produces a fuel interchangeable with refined fuel, but it also changes the state of the fuel so that it is no longer a liquid, but a gas.

This "lighter than air" fuel decreases the weight of a starship allowing it's 1G maneuver drive to push the ship off even a Size 10 world.

But, seriously, though. Starship use liquid hydrogen for fuel.

I wonder why hydrogen gas isn't used? In an internal combustion engine, the process is that gasoline is turned to vapor, and that's what really drives our cars.

Why not store LHyd as a gas? It seems it would a heck of a lot lighter.

EDIT: Help me with my science here. (Not my best subject.) I know that hydrogen is one of the lightest gases known, but would the same volume of liquid hydrogen weigh the same as that of hydrogen gas? Need help with basic science...

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
This "lighter than air" fuel decreases the weight of a starship allowing it's 1G maneuver drive to push the ship off even a Size 10 world.

Since the fuel is refined using a secret and patented purification process, we call this new starship go-go juice:

PUEL

Given the price jump from Unrefined to Refined Fuel, PUEL might cost 2500 Cr per dTon! (with a 99.9% profit margin)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

Well, canon tells us Class A starports have both unrefined and refined fuel.

But, more importantly, there's all those small craft out there--those non-jump-capable spaceships that run on unrefined fuel.

The market for unrefined is so much larger than the market for refined (which is probably why refined fuel is five times as much as unrefined...supply and demand).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Why sell both Unrefined and Refined fuel when you can just sell Refined fuel and make more money? Anyone who does not want to buy Refined fuel, can spend a week traveling to the Gas Giant instead.

Well, canon tells us Class A starports have both unrefined and refined fuel.

But, more importantly, there's all those small craft out there--those non-jump-capable spaceships that run on unrefined fuel.

The market for unrefined is so much larger than the market for refined (which is probably why refined fuel is five times as much as unrefined...supply and demand).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
...it's description of the landing field being an array of repulsor/tractors for just that purpose. Assisting ships (and cargo iirc) into orbit and down.

I like that idea for specific cases. Not every place is going to be the same, and that adds some "detail" to the universe. But, I don't see it as being a requirement to get your Class A certification or anything like that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
...it's description of the landing field being an array of repulsor/tractors for just that purpose. Assisting ships (and cargo iirc) into orbit and down.

I like that idea for specific cases. Not every place is going to be the same, and that adds some "detail" to the universe. But, I don't see it as being a requirement to get your Class A certification or anything like that.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Well, canon tells us Class A starports have both unrefined and refined fuel.

Where? I have only fuzzy recollections of this as a vague area in Classic Traveller. Like “repairs”

But, more importantly, there's all those small craft out there--those non-jump-capable spaceships that run on unrefined fuel.

Virtually all small craft can land on the worlds, so no reasonable small craft owner is going to buy water from a starport for Cr 100 per dTon. He will either skim it from a lake/pump it from a well (for free) or will buy it as a bulk commodity from a local supplier. He only needs a few kiloliters.

The market for unrefined is so much larger than the market for refined (which is probably why refined fuel is five times as much as unrefined...supply and demand).

Let’s take a close look at the cost of Refined Fuel. For the sake of convenience, my entrepreneur is going to buy unrefined fuel at 100 Cr per dTon and refine it himself (obviously it must be cheaper to skim and transport the unrefined fuel since Cr 100 includes a profit). Our business man is short on cash and on a world of only TL 8, so he chooses the smallest unit possible – TL 8, 10 dTons, Cr 40,000 – able to purify only 200 dTons per 8 hours. Low on cash, he finances the unit over 40 years (like a starship) so he plops down Cr 8000 (20% down) and pays Cr 167 per month for 480 months. Since he plans to recover his up front money in the first 5 years, he pays himself Cr 134 per month for the first 60 months. Annual maintenance adds another Cr 34 per month (1% of unit cost per year - 10 times the starship maintenance fee due to greater work load). Knowing nothing about mechanical equipment, our business man hires an Engineer for Cr 4000 per month to monitor the unit. With only 1 engineer, the unit is run for only 1 shift per day – processing 200 dTons per day x 5 days per week x 4 weeks per month, or 4000 dTons of fuel per month. Our total monthly expenses add up to Cr 404,335 (167 to bank + 134 to owner + 34 to maintenance + 4000 to engineer + 400,000 for unrefined fuel). That yields a net cost of Cr 101.08 per dTon for refined fuel. There is no listed EP requirement for a Purifier, but adding a 1 dTon, TL 8 Fusion power plant will add less than Cr 5 per dTon of refined fuel.

The cost of a dTon of refined fuel is less than 107 Cr, but it sells for Cr 500 per dTon.

Why do we have unrefined fuel when the refining process adds only Cr 7 per dTon to the production cost?

If the Purifier was operated 3 shifts per day x 7 days per week producing 17,500 dTons of refined fuel per month, the monthly profit would be MCr 6.8775 for an Cr 8000 initial investment (Cr 608,000 with the fusion power plant).

 

[atpollard]

As the manager of the class E starport on a TL 8 world, I suggest to the planetary government that we can increase trade to our world if we abandon the current starport. I suggest that we construct a new starport near the largest ocean with a 10 dTon fuel prification plant. We should charge no landing fee and we should sell only Refined fuel at Cr 100 per dTon. Since it costs only Cr 7 per dTon to produce, we can use the other 93 Cr per dTon to maintain and upgrade the starport.

Would you be interested in visiting my starport?

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Would you be interested in visiting my starport?

Right up until Duchess Margaret gets wind of it and has an IN task force deliver an edict from your sector Archduke to your planetary Marquis ordering you to cease & desist your unfair trade practises under penalty of Imperial law.

And that's the best-case scenario; the worse-case scenario involves a late-night visit from the Vemene and your body washing up on the beach a few miles from where you wanted to break ground on your new downport...

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Would you be interested in visiting my starport?

Right up until Duchess Margaret gets wind of it and has an IN task force deliver an edict from your sector Archduke to your planetary Marquis ordering you to cease & desist your unfair trade practises under penalty of Imperial law.

And that's the best-case scenario; the worse-case scenario involves a late-night visit from the Vemene and your body washing up on the beach a few miles from where you wanted to break ground on your new downport...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
[qb] Where? I have only fuzzy recollections of this as a vague area in Classic Traveller.

Look under Starship Expenses where it talks about fuel. Unrefined fuel is available at most starports. If you look at the Starport Types table, Class D or better starports have unrefined fuel. Class B and A starports also have refined fuel.

Like “repairs”

The Starport Types table says that Class A starports are the only starports that are capable of constructing starships. Class A and B starports are the only classification that is capable of contructing non-starship.s And Class C or better starports can provide reasonable repairs.

You'd have to use a little interpolation here, but it's not a stretch to say non-starship repairs (including powerplant or M-Drive) can be fixed at Class C or better facilities.

Since annual maintenance can be conducted at Class A or B starports, it's not a stretch to say repairs to the jump drive must be performed at either a Class A or B starport.

And, if the Starship Damage chart reads that a system is destroyed, it's not a stretch to require that ship to make repairs only a facilities that can construct the system. So a destroyed powerplant or M-Drive can be replaced at a Class A or B starport. A destroyed J-Drive requires a Class A starport.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
[qb] Where? I have only fuzzy recollections of this as a vague area in Classic Traveller.

Look under Starship Expenses where it talks about fuel. Unrefined fuel is available at most starports. If you look at the Starport Types table, Class D or better starports have unrefined fuel. Class B and A starports also have refined fuel.

Like “repairs”

The Starport Types table says that Class A starports are the only starports that are capable of constructing starships. Class A and B starports are the only classification that is capable of contructing non-starship.s And Class C or better starports can provide reasonable repairs.

You'd have to use a little interpolation here, but it's not a stretch to say non-starship repairs (including powerplant or M-Drive) can be fixed at Class C or better facilities.

Since annual maintenance can be conducted at Class A or B starports, it's not a stretch to say repairs to the jump drive must be performed at either a Class A or B starport.

And, if the Starship Damage chart reads that a system is destroyed, it's not a stretch to require that ship to make repairs only a facilities that can construct the system. So a destroyed powerplant or M-Drive can be replaced at a Class A or B starport. A destroyed J-Drive requires a Class A starport.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Virtually all small craft can land on the worlds...

Hold on.. let me take FarTrader Dan's Devil's Advocate hat for a moment...

What makes you think all small craft are capable of landing on any world?

What if you have a 20 ton launch that performs at 1G and there is no provision for any other type of drive (unlike what LKW describes for the vessel in his deckplans)?

Take that vessel and try to land...or better yet, launch from...a Size A world.

I'm not saying I advocate an opinion on small craft one way or the other, but it is reasonable to me that many small craft with 1G drives would be in service because the majority of the mainworlds in the Imperium are Size 7 or less.

If you were a manufacturer of 20 ton launches, and it was very expensive to manufacture a 2G launch, then you'd still have a vast market for 1G launches.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Virtually all small craft can land on the worlds...

Hold on.. let me take FarTrader Dan's Devil's Advocate hat for a moment...

What makes you think all small craft are capable of landing on any world?

What if you have a 20 ton launch that performs at 1G and there is no provision for any other type of drive (unlike what LKW describes for the vessel in his deckplans)?

Take that vessel and try to land...or better yet, launch from...a Size A world.

I'm not saying I advocate an opinion on small craft one way or the other, but it is reasonable to me that many small craft with 1G drives would be in service because the majority of the mainworlds in the Imperium are Size 7 or less.

If you were a manufacturer of 20 ton launches, and it was very expensive to manufacture a 2G launch, then you'd still have a vast market for 1G launches.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Let’s take a close look at the cost of Refined Fuel.

[snip of economics]


Why do we have unrefined fuel when the refining process adds only Cr 7 per dTon to the production cost?

And...you've just touched on what this thread is all about...

From another angle, fuel purifiers on starships are relatively cheap according to Book 5. The cost savings in refined vs. unrefined fuel alone covers the cost of the processor and the lost revenue in cargo space due to the unit's size.

Since that is true in the Traveller universe (and it is because Book 5 gives us that), then why do most civilian craft not have fuel purifiers?




Your comment is: Why is refined fuel offered at all if the price of refining is so cheap?

My answer to that would be: Because there's a market for refined fuel. Most civilian ships don't have fuel processors, and if they use unrefined fuel, run the risk of misjump.




Which leads us back to my original question starting this thread: Why don't civilian craft normally have fuel processors?




What we need is a good, logical, interesting handwave that answers this for us.

Maybe it's government regulation?

Maybe it's that not only is a fuel processor needed (which is cheap), but also specially designed drives are also needed (which is mentioned in Book 2) to run refined fuel that the ship processes itself?

Since some of the drives in Book 5 are so much more expensive than their Book 2 counterparts, this makes some sense--that when you add a fuel processor you also need a custom built and very expensive drive to run the fuel it processes.

This would lend itself to the idea that fuel "purified" with a starship fuel purification plant is of better quality than unrefined fuel...but also of inferior quality to refined fuel (the actual refining process requires a much larger system than what can be accomplished economically on a starship? Fuel Purification Plants are "miniature" and inferior versions of the large planet-bound fuel refineries?). Yet, the processed fuel is not of such an inferior quality that it induces misjumps.

Three grades of fuel?

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Unrefined Fuel Used in non-starship P-plants and M-Drives without problem
Unrefined Fuel Used in starship drives with problems
Purified Fuel Used in starship drives without problem if drives are special built and include fuel purification plant
Refined Fuel Used in starship drives without problems</pre>[/QUOTE]Maybe I've started to stumble on the answer here.

This is starting to make some sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Let’s take a close look at the cost of Refined Fuel.

[snip of economics]


Why do we have unrefined fuel when the refining process adds only Cr 7 per dTon to the production cost?

And...you've just touched on what this thread is all about...

From another angle, fuel purifiers on starships are relatively cheap according to Book 5. The cost savings in refined vs. unrefined fuel alone covers the cost of the processor and the lost revenue in cargo space due to the unit's size.

Since that is true in the Traveller universe (and it is because Book 5 gives us that), then why do most civilian craft not have fuel purifiers?




Your comment is: Why is refined fuel offered at all if the price of refining is so cheap?

My answer to that would be: Because there's a market for refined fuel. Most civilian ships don't have fuel processors, and if they use unrefined fuel, run the risk of misjump.




Which leads us back to my original question starting this thread: Why don't civilian craft normally have fuel processors?




What we need is a good, logical, interesting handwave that answers this for us.

Maybe it's government regulation?

Maybe it's that not only is a fuel processor needed (which is cheap), but also specially designed drives are also needed (which is mentioned in Book 2) to run refined fuel that the ship processes itself?

Since some of the drives in Book 5 are so much more expensive than their Book 2 counterparts, this makes some sense--that when you add a fuel processor you also need a custom built and very expensive drive to run the fuel it processes.

This would lend itself to the idea that fuel "purified" with a starship fuel purification plant is of better quality than unrefined fuel...but also of inferior quality to refined fuel (the actual refining process requires a much larger system than what can be accomplished economically on a starship? Fuel Purification Plants are "miniature" and inferior versions of the large planet-bound fuel refineries?). Yet, the processed fuel is not of such an inferior quality that it induces misjumps.

Three grades of fuel?

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Unrefined Fuel Used in non-starship P-plants and M-Drives without problem
Unrefined Fuel Used in starship drives with problems
Purified Fuel Used in starship drives without problem if drives are special built and include fuel purification plant
Refined Fuel Used in starship drives without problems</pre>[/QUOTE]Maybe I've started to stumble on the answer here.

This is starting to make some sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Right up until Duchess Margaret gets wind of it and has an IN task force deliver an edict from your sector Archduke to your planetary Marquis ordering you to cease & desist your unfair trade practises under penalty of Imperial law.

No, better yet...

Emperor Strephon has asked that a committee in the Imperial Moot to look into Refined Fuel price gouging.

Wait! Here's comes the result of the study now..

(Flips page open.)

Uh-ha. OK. Yeah.

"Wha..what do you MEAN there's no evidence of PRICE GOUGING!!??

"Who was on that committee anyway...they're ALL lords of megacorporations? You're kiddin' me! All of 'em.

"And, nooooobody see evidence of price gouging?

"Do they know that refined fuel has reached 500Cr a ton!

"What!? You mean the megacorps are posting record profits this year...AGAIN?

"I dunno about you, but somebody's getting the proverbial wool pulled over their eyes, and I think it's me."

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Right up until Duchess Margaret gets wind of it and has an IN task force deliver an edict from your sector Archduke to your planetary Marquis ordering you to cease & desist your unfair trade practises under penalty of Imperial law.

No, better yet...

Emperor Strephon has asked that a committee in the Imperial Moot to look into Refined Fuel price gouging.

Wait! Here's comes the result of the study now..

(Flips page open.)

Uh-ha. OK. Yeah.

"Wha..what do you MEAN there's no evidence of PRICE GOUGING!!??

"Who was on that committee anyway...they're ALL lords of megacorporations? You're kiddin' me! All of 'em.

"And, nooooobody see evidence of price gouging?

"Do they know that refined fuel has reached 500Cr a ton!

"What!? You mean the megacorps are posting record profits this year...AGAIN?

"I dunno about you, but somebody's getting the proverbial wool pulled over their eyes, and I think it's me."

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Originally posted by Straybow:
Reduce your load, increase G performance of the drive.

What if your drive's G performance is 1G when the vessel is unloaded?

Then you wouldn't be able to lift a load from almost any decent trade planet.

On the other hand, what if the density of the planet is Mars like (~70% of Mer/Ven/Earth)? Now you can lift from a size 8 with less than 1G.

But, of course, LBB2 doesn't allow a ship with less than 1G rating, and LBB3 doesn't include density in worldgen.