far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I agree, and for that reason alone it'll probably be used if I ever get a game going again. Choices are always fun.
Fuel Purification Plant
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You are completely overlooking the fact that even a 1G vessel can make an approach to a GG (of any size) with an arbitrarily huge vector already built up. All the GG's gravity does is deflect the vector more or less (into a hyberbolic orbital path, technically); the only thing that you have to worry about is countering the aerobraking effect from the atmo. And the more aerobraking that occurs, the more intake pressure your scoops will see, so all you have to do is keep the drag you encounter under 1G and you'll whip out the other side of the run still moving at a good speed. Indeed, if you plot it correctly -- approaching from the orbitally-trailing hemisphere of the GG -- you can even get a slingshot effect from adding the GG's vector to your own... </font>[/QUOTE]That will work, to a point imo. It doesn't fit the 8 hours loiter model though so I'm not sure I'd allow a full tank from such a maneuver. Good for a quick topping up, or make a few such runs to fill it up.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You are completely overlooking the fact that even a 1G vessel can make an approach to a GG (of any size) with an arbitrarily huge vector already built up. All the GG's gravity does is deflect the vector more or less (into a hyberbolic orbital path, technically); the only thing that you have to worry about is countering the aerobraking effect from the atmo. And the more aerobraking that occurs, the more intake pressure your scoops will see, so all you have to do is keep the drag you encounter under 1G and you'll whip out the other side of the run still moving at a good speed. Indeed, if you plot it correctly -- approaching from the orbitally-trailing hemisphere of the GG -- you can even get a slingshot effect from adding the GG's vector to your own... </font>[/QUOTE]That will work, to a point imo. It doesn't fit the 8 hours loiter model though so I'm not sure I'd allow a full tank from such a maneuver. Good for a quick topping up, or make a few such runs to fill it up.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
From THIS Wiki, I find this:
================================================
Uranus and Neptune may be considered a separate subclass of giant planets, 'ice giants', or 'Uranian planets', as they are mostly composed of ice, rock, as well as gases of water, ammonia and methane, unlike the "traditional" gas giants Jupiter or Saturn. However, they share the same qualities of the lack of the solid surface; their differences stem from the fact that their proportion of hydrogen and helium is lower, due to their greater distance from the Sun.
Gas giants may have a rocky or metallic core—in fact, such a core is thought to be required for a gas giant to form—but the majority of its mass is in the form of the gaseous hydrogen and helium, with traces of water, methane, ammonia, and other hydrogen compounds.
Unlike rocky planets, which have a clearly defined difference between atmosphere and surface, gas giants do not have a well-defined surface; their atmospheres simply become gradually denser toward the core, perhaps with liquid or liquid-like states in between. One cannot "land on" such planets in the traditional sense. Thus, terms such as diameter, surface area, volume, surface temperature and surface density may refer only to the outermost layer visible from space.
=================================================
And, I thought this was interesting trivia...
=================================================
The term gas giant was coined in 1952 by the science fiction writer James Blish. Arguably it is somewhat of a misnomer, since throughout most of the volume of these planets, there is no distinction between liquids and gases, since all the components (other than solid materials in the core) are above the critical point, so that the transition between gas and liquid is smooth. Jupiter is an exceptional case, having metallic hydrogen near the center, as explained above, but much of its volume is hydrogen, helium and traces of other gases above their critical points.
=================================================
As far as a gas giant's "atmosphere" goes, here's what the Wiki says....
=================================================
The observable atmospheres of any of these planets (at less than unit optical depth) are quite thin compared to the planetary radii, only extending perhaps one percent of the way to the center.
=================================================
That last bit is what we were looking for, folks.
So, in order to skim from a gas giant, the ship has to dive past the planetary diameter of the gas giant in order to skim fuel.
The STANDARD WORLDS table in Book 2 gives us the G rating of a world at its surface. Looking at the "Gs" column of the table, its easy to see that Jupiter's G rating at its diameter is 2.621 Gs. Saturn's is 1.157 Gs. Uranus is 0.887 Gs. And Neptune's is 1.16 Gs.
Note that the gas giant's G rating will increase the closer you get to the planet's core.
But, also note Boomslang's correction of my earilier post: Even a ship rated at 1G can defeat the gravitational pull of Jupiter at its diameter if the ship's velocity is great enough.
It's another one of those factors that makes gas giant skimming dangerous.
Funny, isn't it, how this all makes sense when viewing the rules in the LBBs. Under the LESSER KNOWN ASPECTS OF SPACE TRAVEL, the LBBs state that skimming from a GG takes about 8 hours and the ship must dive deep into the GGs atmosphere with open fuel scoops.
With the atmo of a GG being so thin, we can easily use the rule of thumb of the GG's diameter as the point at which the ship must cross and "dive deep" to obtain fuel.
================================================
Uranus and Neptune may be considered a separate subclass of giant planets, 'ice giants', or 'Uranian planets', as they are mostly composed of ice, rock, as well as gases of water, ammonia and methane, unlike the "traditional" gas giants Jupiter or Saturn. However, they share the same qualities of the lack of the solid surface; their differences stem from the fact that their proportion of hydrogen and helium is lower, due to their greater distance from the Sun.
Gas giants may have a rocky or metallic core—in fact, such a core is thought to be required for a gas giant to form—but the majority of its mass is in the form of the gaseous hydrogen and helium, with traces of water, methane, ammonia, and other hydrogen compounds.
Unlike rocky planets, which have a clearly defined difference between atmosphere and surface, gas giants do not have a well-defined surface; their atmospheres simply become gradually denser toward the core, perhaps with liquid or liquid-like states in between. One cannot "land on" such planets in the traditional sense. Thus, terms such as diameter, surface area, volume, surface temperature and surface density may refer only to the outermost layer visible from space.
=================================================
And, I thought this was interesting trivia...
=================================================
The term gas giant was coined in 1952 by the science fiction writer James Blish. Arguably it is somewhat of a misnomer, since throughout most of the volume of these planets, there is no distinction between liquids and gases, since all the components (other than solid materials in the core) are above the critical point, so that the transition between gas and liquid is smooth. Jupiter is an exceptional case, having metallic hydrogen near the center, as explained above, but much of its volume is hydrogen, helium and traces of other gases above their critical points.
=================================================
As far as a gas giant's "atmosphere" goes, here's what the Wiki says....
=================================================
The observable atmospheres of any of these planets (at less than unit optical depth) are quite thin compared to the planetary radii, only extending perhaps one percent of the way to the center.
=================================================
That last bit is what we were looking for, folks.
So, in order to skim from a gas giant, the ship has to dive past the planetary diameter of the gas giant in order to skim fuel.
The STANDARD WORLDS table in Book 2 gives us the G rating of a world at its surface. Looking at the "Gs" column of the table, its easy to see that Jupiter's G rating at its diameter is 2.621 Gs. Saturn's is 1.157 Gs. Uranus is 0.887 Gs. And Neptune's is 1.16 Gs.
Note that the gas giant's G rating will increase the closer you get to the planet's core.
But, also note Boomslang's correction of my earilier post: Even a ship rated at 1G can defeat the gravitational pull of Jupiter at its diameter if the ship's velocity is great enough.
It's another one of those factors that makes gas giant skimming dangerous.
Funny, isn't it, how this all makes sense when viewing the rules in the LBBs. Under the LESSER KNOWN ASPECTS OF SPACE TRAVEL, the LBBs state that skimming from a GG takes about 8 hours and the ship must dive deep into the GGs atmosphere with open fuel scoops.
With the atmo of a GG being so thin, we can easily use the rule of thumb of the GG's diameter as the point at which the ship must cross and "dive deep" to obtain fuel.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
From THIS Wiki, I find this:
================================================
Uranus and Neptune may be considered a separate subclass of giant planets, 'ice giants', or 'Uranian planets', as they are mostly composed of ice, rock, as well as gases of water, ammonia and methane, unlike the "traditional" gas giants Jupiter or Saturn. However, they share the same qualities of the lack of the solid surface; their differences stem from the fact that their proportion of hydrogen and helium is lower, due to their greater distance from the Sun.
Gas giants may have a rocky or metallic core—in fact, such a core is thought to be required for a gas giant to form—but the majority of its mass is in the form of the gaseous hydrogen and helium, with traces of water, methane, ammonia, and other hydrogen compounds.
Unlike rocky planets, which have a clearly defined difference between atmosphere and surface, gas giants do not have a well-defined surface; their atmospheres simply become gradually denser toward the core, perhaps with liquid or liquid-like states in between. One cannot "land on" such planets in the traditional sense. Thus, terms such as diameter, surface area, volume, surface temperature and surface density may refer only to the outermost layer visible from space.
=================================================
And, I thought this was interesting trivia...
=================================================
The term gas giant was coined in 1952 by the science fiction writer James Blish. Arguably it is somewhat of a misnomer, since throughout most of the volume of these planets, there is no distinction between liquids and gases, since all the components (other than solid materials in the core) are above the critical point, so that the transition between gas and liquid is smooth. Jupiter is an exceptional case, having metallic hydrogen near the center, as explained above, but much of its volume is hydrogen, helium and traces of other gases above their critical points.
=================================================
As far as a gas giant's "atmosphere" goes, here's what the Wiki says....
=================================================
The observable atmospheres of any of these planets (at less than unit optical depth) are quite thin compared to the planetary radii, only extending perhaps one percent of the way to the center.
=================================================
That last bit is what we were looking for, folks.
So, in order to skim from a gas giant, the ship has to dive past the planetary diameter of the gas giant in order to skim fuel.
The STANDARD WORLDS table in Book 2 gives us the G rating of a world at its surface. Looking at the "Gs" column of the table, its easy to see that Jupiter's G rating at its diameter is 2.621 Gs. Saturn's is 1.157 Gs. Uranus is 0.887 Gs. And Neptune's is 1.16 Gs.
Note that the gas giant's G rating will increase the closer you get to the planet's core.
But, also note Boomslang's correction of my earilier post: Even a ship rated at 1G can defeat the gravitational pull of Jupiter at its diameter if the ship's velocity is great enough.
It's another one of those factors that makes gas giant skimming dangerous.
Funny, isn't it, how this all makes sense when viewing the rules in the LBBs. Under the LESSER KNOWN ASPECTS OF SPACE TRAVEL, the LBBs state that skimming from a GG takes about 8 hours and the ship must dive deep into the GGs atmosphere with open fuel scoops.
With the atmo of a GG being so thin, we can easily use the rule of thumb of the GG's diameter as the point at which the ship must cross and "dive deep" to obtain fuel.
================================================
Uranus and Neptune may be considered a separate subclass of giant planets, 'ice giants', or 'Uranian planets', as they are mostly composed of ice, rock, as well as gases of water, ammonia and methane, unlike the "traditional" gas giants Jupiter or Saturn. However, they share the same qualities of the lack of the solid surface; their differences stem from the fact that their proportion of hydrogen and helium is lower, due to their greater distance from the Sun.
Gas giants may have a rocky or metallic core—in fact, such a core is thought to be required for a gas giant to form—but the majority of its mass is in the form of the gaseous hydrogen and helium, with traces of water, methane, ammonia, and other hydrogen compounds.
Unlike rocky planets, which have a clearly defined difference between atmosphere and surface, gas giants do not have a well-defined surface; their atmospheres simply become gradually denser toward the core, perhaps with liquid or liquid-like states in between. One cannot "land on" such planets in the traditional sense. Thus, terms such as diameter, surface area, volume, surface temperature and surface density may refer only to the outermost layer visible from space.
=================================================
And, I thought this was interesting trivia...
=================================================
The term gas giant was coined in 1952 by the science fiction writer James Blish. Arguably it is somewhat of a misnomer, since throughout most of the volume of these planets, there is no distinction between liquids and gases, since all the components (other than solid materials in the core) are above the critical point, so that the transition between gas and liquid is smooth. Jupiter is an exceptional case, having metallic hydrogen near the center, as explained above, but much of its volume is hydrogen, helium and traces of other gases above their critical points.
=================================================
As far as a gas giant's "atmosphere" goes, here's what the Wiki says....
=================================================
The observable atmospheres of any of these planets (at less than unit optical depth) are quite thin compared to the planetary radii, only extending perhaps one percent of the way to the center.
=================================================
That last bit is what we were looking for, folks.
So, in order to skim from a gas giant, the ship has to dive past the planetary diameter of the gas giant in order to skim fuel.
The STANDARD WORLDS table in Book 2 gives us the G rating of a world at its surface. Looking at the "Gs" column of the table, its easy to see that Jupiter's G rating at its diameter is 2.621 Gs. Saturn's is 1.157 Gs. Uranus is 0.887 Gs. And Neptune's is 1.16 Gs.
Note that the gas giant's G rating will increase the closer you get to the planet's core.
But, also note Boomslang's correction of my earilier post: Even a ship rated at 1G can defeat the gravitational pull of Jupiter at its diameter if the ship's velocity is great enough.
It's another one of those factors that makes gas giant skimming dangerous.
Funny, isn't it, how this all makes sense when viewing the rules in the LBBs. Under the LESSER KNOWN ASPECTS OF SPACE TRAVEL, the LBBs state that skimming from a GG takes about 8 hours and the ship must dive deep into the GGs atmosphere with open fuel scoops.
With the atmo of a GG being so thin, we can easily use the rule of thumb of the GG's diameter as the point at which the ship must cross and "dive deep" to obtain fuel.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Which begs a new question: Does it really take 8 hours with most of the time spent beneath planetary diameter to skim fuel?
Or...
Is that 8 hours an average figure for the time it takes for an average vessel to obtain velocity, slide through part of the GG, exit the other side, decelerate, about face, and kick it into high gear to make another pass?
Given the second model, most of the time is not spent inside the GG. It's spent accelerating and decelerating, turing around...normal space maneuvers that take time and are necessary if the ship is to reach escape velocity beneath the surface of the GG's diameter.
I'm starting to think the 8 hour figure is more likely on the second scenario.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Which begs a new question: Does it really take 8 hours with most of the time spent beneath planetary diameter to skim fuel?
Or...
Is that 8 hours an average figure for the time it takes for an average vessel to obtain velocity, slide through part of the GG, exit the other side, decelerate, about face, and kick it into high gear to make another pass?
Given the second model, most of the time is not spent inside the GG. It's spent accelerating and decelerating, turing around...normal space maneuvers that take time and are necessary if the ship is to reach escape velocity beneath the surface of the GG's diameter.
I'm starting to think the 8 hour figure is more likely on the second scenario.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Interpolating...
Checking out the time required to wilderness refuel in a planetary ocean, I see it's 4 hours.
It takes four hours to open the fuel cocks and let the water flood in.
Opening the scoops and letting the hydrogen flood in, especially at the ship's high speed and the wind velocity that must happen inside a gas giant, I'd say that physically filling up the tanks is about the same.
Maybe the process of filtering and turn gas into Liquid Hydrogen is quicker than the process of cracking hydrogen from water and getting Liquid Hydrogen?
If the process is about the same, what the LBBs are telling is that 4 hours are given to starship maneuving (half the time) while actual skimming at the GG only takes 4 hours as well.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Interpolating...
Checking out the time required to wilderness refuel in a planetary ocean, I see it's 4 hours.
It takes four hours to open the fuel cocks and let the water flood in.
Opening the scoops and letting the hydrogen flood in, especially at the ship's high speed and the wind velocity that must happen inside a gas giant, I'd say that physically filling up the tanks is about the same.
Maybe the process of filtering and turn gas into Liquid Hydrogen is quicker than the process of cracking hydrogen from water and getting Liquid Hydrogen?
If the process is about the same, what the LBBs are telling is that 4 hours are given to starship maneuving (half the time) while actual skimming at the GG only takes 4 hours as well.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
And, this touches on the original post of this thread.
Consider...
Whether water is pumped into the tanks, ice is melted and pumped into the tanks, or gas is sucked into the tanks, it's all got to be processed into liquid hydrogen.
LHyd is the end result. LHyd is what's needed to run the powerplant and power the jump drive.
And, that LHyd is processed. Raw material (water, melted ice, gas) goes in and LHyd is spit out.
Therefore, any ship with fuel cocks and/or scoops does have a type of fuel processor.
But...
The fuel that is processed with this method is unrefined.
So, the fuel processors that civilian ships have are limited processors?
Or, is it that LHyd fuel must go through a two-step process in order to be refined? Step 1 is to actually obtain liquid hydrogen. Step 2 is to refine that LHyd from its impurities?
Thoughts on that?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
And, this touches on the original post of this thread.
Consider...
Whether water is pumped into the tanks, ice is melted and pumped into the tanks, or gas is sucked into the tanks, it's all got to be processed into liquid hydrogen.
LHyd is the end result. LHyd is what's needed to run the powerplant and power the jump drive.
And, that LHyd is processed. Raw material (water, melted ice, gas) goes in and LHyd is spit out.
Therefore, any ship with fuel cocks and/or scoops does have a type of fuel processor.
But...
The fuel that is processed with this method is unrefined.
So, the fuel processors that civilian ships have are limited processors?
Or, is it that LHyd fuel must go through a two-step process in order to be refined? Step 1 is to actually obtain liquid hydrogen. Step 2 is to refine that LHyd from its impurities?
Thoughts on that?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
And, if this is the case, I should alter my skimming rules I posted earlier in the thread to include a modifier for the ship's M-Drive.
Remember, in those rules, actual time spent skimming took "3D minus Pilot skill" hours. Each hour, the pilot must roll below the Nav number or the ship takes damage.
Maybe that should be altered to something like this:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TIME TO SKIM IS 4D HOURS (Minimum 4 hrs./Maximum 24 hrs.)
------------------------
DMs
---
- Pilot skill
-1 Pilot DEX 9+
- Ship's M-Drive rating
- Navigator skill
-1 Navigator EDU 9+
</pre>[/QUOTE]That's a little more complicated, with all the DMs, but it does take everything into account.
First, the 4D roll will center the number more often at the 14 hour mark, making freak rolls that will take no time very rare. (And, when it happens, maybe the ship hit the motherload liquid layer in the GG, filling the scoops quicker.)
Second, the DMs will bring the number down to average around 8 hours, as the CT rule says.
Third, the people most responsible for getting the ship quickly and safely through the skim affect the time it takes to make the skim: The pilot's piloting ability and his natural gifts on the manual stick; the navigator's expertise at creating the flight plan and interpreting sensor data plus his learned knowlege on the matter; and the ship's performance in the form of it's M-Drive rating.
Fourth, the minimum time is 4 hours, no matter the DMs. This is half the suggested time in the LBBs and seems a good round number.
Fifth, the maximum time is a standard day, no matter the DMs. Again, a good, round number.
Not a bad little rule, if I do say so myself.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
And, if this is the case, I should alter my skimming rules I posted earlier in the thread to include a modifier for the ship's M-Drive.
Remember, in those rules, actual time spent skimming took "3D minus Pilot skill" hours. Each hour, the pilot must roll below the Nav number or the ship takes damage.
Maybe that should be altered to something like this:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TIME TO SKIM IS 4D HOURS (Minimum 4 hrs./Maximum 24 hrs.)
------------------------
DMs
---
- Pilot skill
-1 Pilot DEX 9+
- Ship's M-Drive rating
- Navigator skill
-1 Navigator EDU 9+
</pre>[/QUOTE]That's a little more complicated, with all the DMs, but it does take everything into account.
First, the 4D roll will center the number more often at the 14 hour mark, making freak rolls that will take no time very rare. (And, when it happens, maybe the ship hit the motherload liquid layer in the GG, filling the scoops quicker.)
Second, the DMs will bring the number down to average around 8 hours, as the CT rule says.
Third, the people most responsible for getting the ship quickly and safely through the skim affect the time it takes to make the skim: The pilot's piloting ability and his natural gifts on the manual stick; the navigator's expertise at creating the flight plan and interpreting sensor data plus his learned knowlege on the matter; and the ship's performance in the form of it's M-Drive rating.
Fourth, the minimum time is 4 hours, no matter the DMs. This is half the suggested time in the LBBs and seems a good round number.
Fifth, the maximum time is a standard day, no matter the DMs. Again, a good, round number.
Not a bad little rule, if I do say so myself.
Y'know, it's odd, I know I posted this, but it looks like it keeps getting taken out of here. (Indeed, I'm going to keep posting this until it not only gets left in, but also gets responded to.)
I always figured that Fuel Purifiers were or could be built in to the engineering spaces of a vessel. This would be a good reason that Navy and Scout vessels can take unrefined fuel: they can process it on the way.
I always figured that Fuel Purifiers were or could be built in to the engineering spaces of a vessel. This would be a good reason that Navy and Scout vessels can take unrefined fuel: they can process it on the way.
Y'know, it's odd, I know I posted this, but it looks like it keeps getting taken out of here. (Indeed, I'm going to keep posting this until it not only gets left in, but also gets responded to.)
I always figured that Fuel Purifiers were or could be built in to the engineering spaces of a vessel. This would be a good reason that Navy and Scout vessels can take unrefined fuel: they can process it on the way.
I always figured that Fuel Purifiers were or could be built in to the engineering spaces of a vessel. This would be a good reason that Navy and Scout vessels can take unrefined fuel: they can process it on the way.
From HG, the smallest Fuel Purifier available to the Imperium would be a TL 15, 3 dTon model capable of processing fuel for a 200 dTon fuel tank.
For a 2000 dTon or greater ship (with larger than 200 dTon fuel tanks) the addition of a purifier requiring 0.15 percent of the ship per jump number is indeed a trivial component that can easily be “assumed” to be a standard part of engineering. The presence of fuel purification plants in large MERCHNANT ships, would create sufficient demand for unrefined fuel in major starports that they might sell BOTH refined and unrefined fuel at the starport.
For a 100 dTon courier, a 3 dTon purifier would require 3 percent of the entire ship and about 20 percent of the typical engineering space. This would be larger than the ship’s power plant and would not be a trivial addition.
Rather than a Military/Civilian issue, this seems like more of a Large/Small ship issue.
As a side note, for any ship greater than 200 dTons, the 3 dTon power plant “could” fit within the “+/- 10 percent” plan rule (depending on whether YTU interprets the 10 percent to apply to the design calculations or only the drawn deck plan.)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
All excellent points.
But, for a TL 9 400 ton subsidized merchant, giving up 9 tons of cargo space for purifier machinery costing 38,000Cr doesn't sound like a bad deal. Especially if you consider the cost savings in unrefined fuel during the lifetime of the vessel (and that's purchasing unrefined fuel--not skimming it).
I think you're in the right place but drew the wrong conclusion.
Check out the cost associated with Book 5 drives as opposed to Book 2 drives.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL 9 Type R Subsidized Merchant
------------------------------------------------
Book 2 Book 5
-------------- --------------
Jump Drive-C 30MCr 20 tons 32MCr 8 tons
Maneuver Drive-C 12MCr 5 tons 12MCr 8 tons
Power Plant-C 24MCr 10 tons 36MCr 12 tons
----- ------- ------ -------
Totals 66MCr 35 tons 80MCr 28 tons</pre>[/QUOTE]Obviously, there are differnces in the one-size-fits-all modular drives of Book 2 and the custom-built military drives of Book 5. There's a heck of a tonnage savings going with the more compact military drives, but the ship's owner definitely pays for it.
A TL 9 fuel purifier added to the military drive above will increase cost 38,000Cr (nothing) but add 9 tons to the drives (taking the total to 37 tons, just over the total of the civilian drives).
The fuel purifier must be what is being referenced in the LBBs when, under STARSHIP MALFUNCTIONS, it says that military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it.
Another interesting note is pg. 34 of Book 5, under SMALL CRAFT, where it states that "[small craft] drives do not require fuel purification plants to allow use of unrefined fuel."
So, what does all this tell us?
What I read is that there are drives built for specific reasons with different specifications (efficient, custom-built military drives vs. modular, one-size-fits-all civilian drives). We can see that small craft use unrefined fuel with no problems. That tells me that fine-tuned starship drives require "premium", not just "unleaded", or they run sluggishly (and dangerously).
Also, consider fuel use. Both J-Drives require the same fuel, but the civilian powerplant uses 10 tons of fuel every four weeks. The military powerplant is more efficient, requiring only 4 tons of fuel every four weeks.
So, the questions remains: Why not install a fuel purification plant on civilian ships?
I can buy an argument that Book 5 military drives are restricted--that typically civilians aren't able to obtain the more efficient, and sometimes smaller, drives, just like we have limited exposure to military tech in the real world.
But, why wouldn't a company produce a modular fuel purification plant for use with Book 2 civilian designs?
This leads me back to the idea that it isn't a commerce issue. There's got to be something keeping that market from being viable.
My guess is still the same as what we had before: It's a question of time (travel time to the GG) and danger (skimming fuel in the GG).
As for why unrefined fuel exists at starports, I do think there is a market for it. Small Craft use it (Shuttles, Ship's Boats). Starships of military design (with fuel purifiers) use it. And, unrefined fuel can be used in a civilian starship--there's just a small chance it will gum up the works.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
All excellent points.
But, for a TL 9 400 ton subsidized merchant, giving up 9 tons of cargo space for purifier machinery costing 38,000Cr doesn't sound like a bad deal. Especially if you consider the cost savings in unrefined fuel during the lifetime of the vessel (and that's purchasing unrefined fuel--not skimming it).
I think you're in the right place but drew the wrong conclusion.
Check out the cost associated with Book 5 drives as opposed to Book 2 drives.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL 9 Type R Subsidized Merchant
------------------------------------------------
Book 2 Book 5
-------------- --------------
Jump Drive-C 30MCr 20 tons 32MCr 8 tons
Maneuver Drive-C 12MCr 5 tons 12MCr 8 tons
Power Plant-C 24MCr 10 tons 36MCr 12 tons
----- ------- ------ -------
Totals 66MCr 35 tons 80MCr 28 tons</pre>[/QUOTE]Obviously, there are differnces in the one-size-fits-all modular drives of Book 2 and the custom-built military drives of Book 5. There's a heck of a tonnage savings going with the more compact military drives, but the ship's owner definitely pays for it.
A TL 9 fuel purifier added to the military drive above will increase cost 38,000Cr (nothing) but add 9 tons to the drives (taking the total to 37 tons, just over the total of the civilian drives).
The fuel purifier must be what is being referenced in the LBBs when, under STARSHIP MALFUNCTIONS, it says that military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it.
Another interesting note is pg. 34 of Book 5, under SMALL CRAFT, where it states that "[small craft] drives do not require fuel purification plants to allow use of unrefined fuel."
So, what does all this tell us?
What I read is that there are drives built for specific reasons with different specifications (efficient, custom-built military drives vs. modular, one-size-fits-all civilian drives). We can see that small craft use unrefined fuel with no problems. That tells me that fine-tuned starship drives require "premium", not just "unleaded", or they run sluggishly (and dangerously).
Also, consider fuel use. Both J-Drives require the same fuel, but the civilian powerplant uses 10 tons of fuel every four weeks. The military powerplant is more efficient, requiring only 4 tons of fuel every four weeks.
So, the questions remains: Why not install a fuel purification plant on civilian ships?
I can buy an argument that Book 5 military drives are restricted--that typically civilians aren't able to obtain the more efficient, and sometimes smaller, drives, just like we have limited exposure to military tech in the real world.
But, why wouldn't a company produce a modular fuel purification plant for use with Book 2 civilian designs?
This leads me back to the idea that it isn't a commerce issue. There's got to be something keeping that market from being viable.
My guess is still the same as what we had before: It's a question of time (travel time to the GG) and danger (skimming fuel in the GG).
As for why unrefined fuel exists at starports, I do think there is a market for it. Small Craft use it (Shuttles, Ship's Boats). Starships of military design (with fuel purifiers) use it. And, unrefined fuel can be used in a civilian starship--there's just a small chance it will gum up the works.
Well, again, under B2, you don't need purification if you specify your drives don't require refined fuel. Which takes me back to my original assessment...
The big freighters plying the high-traffic routes between major worlds might decide to require it (B2) or be forced to use it (HG2; although Al Morai getting a waiver to mount PAWs on its "route protectors" suggests there's some leeway to be had in installing military or "paramilitary" equipment) -- in such situations, the refining could take place portside as part of the operations support infrastructure and the refined fuel simply loaded aboard the freighters by dedicated company tanker vessels. The big freighters are less of a hijack risk if they can't skim fuel because they're unstreamlined and then they shouldn't use unrefined fuel anyway because it tends to cause serious malfunctions; they're safely wedded to the company's support infrastructure.
OTOH, Traders, which are much more likely to frequent Starport C- worlds, must be able to routinely use unrefined fuel, since it is likely to often be the only choice available. Requiring Traders to use refined fuel, even if logistically feasible, is not economically feasible within the already-broken starship cost/revenue model as it is written in the rules. So a Trader's options are three: burn unrefined in refined-only drives and routinely risk death, install a purification plant and sacrifice precious payload capacity, or just use B2 drives that are built for it and not fuss over the matter...
Thus, unrefined fuel is the default across even civilized space, and refined fuel is a niche product only available at larger starports to meet special needs...
Well, again, under B2, you don't need purification if you specify your drives don't require refined fuel. Which takes me back to my original assessment...
The big freighters plying the high-traffic routes between major worlds might decide to require it (B2) or be forced to use it (HG2; although Al Morai getting a waiver to mount PAWs on its "route protectors" suggests there's some leeway to be had in installing military or "paramilitary" equipment) -- in such situations, the refining could take place portside as part of the operations support infrastructure and the refined fuel simply loaded aboard the freighters by dedicated company tanker vessels. The big freighters are less of a hijack risk if they can't skim fuel because they're unstreamlined and then they shouldn't use unrefined fuel anyway because it tends to cause serious malfunctions; they're safely wedded to the company's support infrastructure.
OTOH, Traders, which are much more likely to frequent Starport C- worlds, must be able to routinely use unrefined fuel, since it is likely to often be the only choice available. Requiring Traders to use refined fuel, even if logistically feasible, is not economically feasible within the already-broken starship cost/revenue model as it is written in the rules. So a Trader's options are three: burn unrefined in refined-only drives and routinely risk death, install a purification plant and sacrifice precious payload capacity, or just use B2 drives that are built for it and not fuss over the matter...
Thus, unrefined fuel is the default across even civilized space, and refined fuel is a niche product only available at larger starports to meet special needs...
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