Fuel Purification Plant

[atpollard]

RE: landing on big worlds.

In the old "Starport Authority" article (JTAS) by Mr. Ford, class A & B starports had orbital facilities and class C & D starports had an orbital shuttle service. Thus "not landing" was only a problem for large worlds with class E & X starports - landing on a cleared rock outcropping or an empty field with no support facilities. How much cargo and how many passengers want to go there and can afford to leave? How common of a problem is that anyway?

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So, the reference in TTB is to address (a) non-starships and (b) starships with fuel processors.

Nice try.



Further up on that very page (51 in TTB, top of second column) it first discusses the hazards of unrefined fuel and explicitly describes military and quasi-military drives as "specially built to use it".

No mention of "oh, and military ships carry this 15-dton or so fuel purification plant that's included in the drive displacement at no extra cost but which is replaced in civilian designs by a nifty-yet-functionless plastic placeholder slug which unfortunately you can't remove without totally disabling the drive or whatever".

Plus, there's that loophole big enough to drive a fleet tender through: "quasi-military". You try getting permission to land a Free Trader with a triple turret or two full of 250MW/s anti-ship lasers away from the starport on a high-LL world and see how smoothly that goes without a mercenary license/permit/visa/waiver. Since B3 tells us LL doesn't affect ship's weaponry (within the starport XT line), any corsair-wary, armed starship is de facto "quasi-military" as far as local law enforcement will be concerned...

Q.E.D.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So, the reference in TTB is to address (a) non-starships and (b) starships with fuel processors.

Nice try.



Further up on that very page (51 in TTB, top of second column) it first discusses the hazards of unrefined fuel and explicitly describes military and quasi-military drives as "specially built to use it".

No mention of "oh, and military ships carry this 15-dton or so fuel purification plant that's included in the drive displacement at no extra cost but which is replaced in civilian designs by a nifty-yet-functionless plastic placeholder slug which unfortunately you can't remove without totally disabling the drive or whatever".

Plus, there's that loophole big enough to drive a fleet tender through: "quasi-military". You try getting permission to land a Free Trader with a triple turret or two full of 250MW/s anti-ship lasers away from the starport on a high-LL world and see how smoothly that goes without a mercenary license/permit/visa/waiver. Since B3 tells us LL doesn't affect ship's weaponry (within the starport XT line), any corsair-wary, armed starship is de facto "quasi-military" as far as local law enforcement will be concerned...

Q.E.D.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
How common of a problem is that anyway?

Fairly common, I'd expect, if one is a savvy Trader with an eye towards exploiti^H^H^H^H^H^H developing new markets... E and X starports show "untapped potential" to the entrepreneurially-inclined -- it would be hideously frustrating to lose a chance at a locked-in monopol^H^H^H^H^H^H^H pioneering mercantile opportunity just because your starship's m-legs are too short for the planet's large size.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by atpollard:
How common of a problem is that anyway?

Fairly common, I'd expect, if one is a savvy Trader with an eye towards exploiti^H^H^H^H^H^H developing new markets... E and X starports show "untapped potential" to the entrepreneurially-inclined -- it would be hideously frustrating to lose a chance at a locked-in monopol^H^H^H^H^H^H^H pioneering mercantile opportunity just because your starship's m-legs are too short for the planet's large size.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
I agree that virtually all ships should have purification plants and buy unrefined fuel whenever possible.

I don't agree

, but only because I want to use the unrefined rules in CT.

I want to make the CT rules work but also makes sense. Instead of flat out changing it, I'd like to consider some more why the rules are the way they are.

It seems that Military vessels are allowed fuel processors, and in general, civilian vessels aren't. This isn't an economic reason. We've established that. Fuel purifiers are inexpensive enough, and relatively small enough, to be desirable on 400 ton vessels.

So, there's got to be another reason.

Right now, I'm sticking with the (A) Travel time to GG, and (B) danager in the GG reasons for now. Until I discover, hear, or come up with something better.

BTW, most MT ships, even the civilian craft, have fuel processors.

This is another thing that was changed in MT (besides the 1G Size 8+ world thingy).

(My Liberty Ship does.) Why should the typical merchant ship be able to pull in for an annual overhaul at some of the worst ports in the subsector when there are plenty of "better" ports nearby.

Why can't a TL 9 ship do its overhaul at a TL 13 port?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
I agree that virtually all ships should have purification plants and buy unrefined fuel whenever possible.

I don't agree

, but only because I want to use the unrefined rules in CT.

I want to make the CT rules work but also makes sense. Instead of flat out changing it, I'd like to consider some more why the rules are the way they are.

It seems that Military vessels are allowed fuel processors, and in general, civilian vessels aren't. This isn't an economic reason. We've established that. Fuel purifiers are inexpensive enough, and relatively small enough, to be desirable on 400 ton vessels.

So, there's got to be another reason.

Right now, I'm sticking with the (A) Travel time to GG, and (B) danager in the GG reasons for now. Until I discover, hear, or come up with something better.

BTW, most MT ships, even the civilian craft, have fuel processors.

This is another thing that was changed in MT (besides the 1G Size 8+ world thingy).

(My Liberty Ship does.) Why should the typical merchant ship be able to pull in for an annual overhaul at some of the worst ports in the subsector when there are plenty of "better" ports nearby.

Why can't a TL 9 ship do its overhaul at a TL 13 port?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
In the old "Starport Authority" article (JTAS) by Mr. Ford, class A & B starports had orbital facilities and class C & D starports had an orbital shuttle service. Thus "not landing" was only a problem for large worlds with class E & X starports - landing on a cleared rock outcropping or an empty field with no support facilities. How much cargo and how many passengers want to go there and can afford to leave? How common of a problem is that anyway?

It's not that big a problem for the old 1Gers. I checked the entire Traveller Adventure, and the ship never once (in the course of the adventure) has trouble landing on the worlds it needs to.

I'm sure it depends on the subsector, but I don't think the 1G Size 8+ world problem is that big a deal as it may seem at first.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
In the old "Starport Authority" article (JTAS) by Mr. Ford, class A & B starports had orbital facilities and class C & D starports had an orbital shuttle service. Thus "not landing" was only a problem for large worlds with class E & X starports - landing on a cleared rock outcropping or an empty field with no support facilities. How much cargo and how many passengers want to go there and can afford to leave? How common of a problem is that anyway?

It's not that big a problem for the old 1Gers. I checked the entire Traveller Adventure, and the ship never once (in the course of the adventure) has trouble landing on the worlds it needs to.

I'm sure it depends on the subsector, but I don't think the 1G Size 8+ world problem is that big a deal as it may seem at first.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Further up on that very page (51 in TTB, top of second column) it first discusses the hazards of unrefined fuel and explicitly describes military and quasi-military drives as "specially built to use it".

I know that.

Let's say Book 5 was published before Book 2. That line would easily refer to fuel purifiers in Book 5, even writen the exact way it is.

So, when Book 5 was published, Marc & Co. probably said to themselves, "Hmm...we've already established that special built drives can use unrefined fuel without having to suffer the unrefined jump DM. Why is that?"

Then, somebody said, "Um...because they're not using unrefined fuel...they're using refined fuel..but they've got fuel purifiers."

And, Marc responds, "Great. We'll use it. Let's add that as equipment in Book 5"

Maybe it didn't happen quite like that, but I'd bet money it was something close.

I am assuming, but I think it's a pretty doggone assumption that the drives that are built to use unrefined fuel in Book 2 are actually ships with fuel processors.

Otherwise, if Book 2 did it your way...if all a PC had to do in designing his ship was say, "I want my ship to be built to use unrefined fuel," then why would there be a unrefined jump penalty DM listed in Book 2 at all?

With unrefined fuel at 100Cr a ton, and refined fuel at 500Cr a tonl, why would ANY ship be made that didn't accept unrefined fuel?

The fuel purifiers in the military (and quasi-military) vessels make more sense than what you're proposing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Further up on that very page (51 in TTB, top of second column) it first discusses the hazards of unrefined fuel and explicitly describes military and quasi-military drives as "specially built to use it".

I know that.

Let's say Book 5 was published before Book 2. That line would easily refer to fuel purifiers in Book 5, even writen the exact way it is.

So, when Book 5 was published, Marc & Co. probably said to themselves, "Hmm...we've already established that special built drives can use unrefined fuel without having to suffer the unrefined jump DM. Why is that?"

Then, somebody said, "Um...because they're not using unrefined fuel...they're using refined fuel..but they've got fuel purifiers."

And, Marc responds, "Great. We'll use it. Let's add that as equipment in Book 5"

Maybe it didn't happen quite like that, but I'd bet money it was something close.

I am assuming, but I think it's a pretty doggone assumption that the drives that are built to use unrefined fuel in Book 2 are actually ships with fuel processors.

Otherwise, if Book 2 did it your way...if all a PC had to do in designing his ship was say, "I want my ship to be built to use unrefined fuel," then why would there be a unrefined jump penalty DM listed in Book 2 at all?

With unrefined fuel at 100Cr a ton, and refined fuel at 500Cr a tonl, why would ANY ship be made that didn't accept unrefined fuel?

The fuel purifiers in the military (and quasi-military) vessels make more sense than what you're proposing.

 

[far-trader]

You know I believe the local gravity thing is supposed be enforced and was only playing devil's advocate, but I've solidly chosen my side not only with the vector combat rule cite but with another thing that just occurred to me...

I was channelling his darkness again and prepping an argument from a purely humanocentric terran view and all ready to launch into a "But then Free-Traders can't land on Earth!" And then it hit me...

...the Solomani Free Trader is 2G! Ooops

That argument went bust before I started typing it up. In fact none of the CT AM6 ships is less than 2G. The Sols are smart enough to build their ships to land on their homeworld*. So there we have it, one more FACT on the side of local gravity counts

* btw, isn't the Vilani homeworld a little smaller and so 1G would make sense for them too?

You're very welcome S4

 

[far-trader]

You know I believe the local gravity thing is supposed be enforced and was only playing devil's advocate, but I've solidly chosen my side not only with the vector combat rule cite but with another thing that just occurred to me...

I was channelling his darkness again and prepping an argument from a purely humanocentric terran view and all ready to launch into a "But then Free-Traders can't land on Earth!" And then it hit me...

...the Solomani Free Trader is 2G! Ooops

That argument went bust before I started typing it up. In fact none of the CT AM6 ships is less than 2G. The Sols are smart enough to build their ships to land on their homeworld*. So there we have it, one more FACT on the side of local gravity counts

* btw, isn't the Vilani homeworld a little smaller and so 1G would make sense for them too?

You're very welcome S4

 

[Supplement Four]

ARE VESSELS WITH 1G DRIVES CAPABLE OF LANDING ON SIZE 8+ WORLDS?

Hmmm...Let's see...

1....Why do CT grav vehicle design rules in Striker read the way they do?

2....Why does Stiker, pg. 41 of Book 2 explicitly state that spaceships have to subtract the world gravity from their M-Drive ratings when figuring movement rates inside the world's atmosphere?

3....Why does Andy Lilly mention the Escape Velocity rule as he tweaks it in one of his Traveller articles in White Dwarf magazine? He thinks he's tweaking a real CT rule, right?

4....Why does the LKW still design his ships using this rule for official CT publication?

5....Why does the Book 2 space combat movement rules not allow a 1G ship to lift from a Size 8 world?

6....Why does Book 6 show escape velocity from a Size 8 world at something higher than a ship with a 1G drive can achieve?

7....And, are all the high ports and port-to-ground shuttle services only meant for unstreamlined starships when most of the ubiquitous Traveller designs are streamlined?

And...Point Number Eight is....

Originally posted by far-trader:
...the Solomani Free Trader is 2G! Ooops

That argument went bust before I started typing it up. In fact none of the CT AM6 ships is less than 2G. The Sols are smart enough to build their ships to land on their homeworld*. So there we have it, one more FACT on the side of local gravity counts

* btw, isn't the Vilani homeworld a little smaller and so 1G would make sense for them too?

GRATCI!

You're very welcome S4

 

[Supplement Four]

ARE VESSELS WITH 1G DRIVES CAPABLE OF LANDING ON SIZE 8+ WORLDS?

Hmmm...Let's see...

1....Why do CT grav vehicle design rules in Striker read the way they do?

2....Why does Stiker, pg. 41 of Book 2 explicitly state that spaceships have to subtract the world gravity from their M-Drive ratings when figuring movement rates inside the world's atmosphere?

3....Why does Andy Lilly mention the Escape Velocity rule as he tweaks it in one of his Traveller articles in White Dwarf magazine? He thinks he's tweaking a real CT rule, right?

4....Why does the LKW still design his ships using this rule for official CT publication?

5....Why does the Book 2 space combat movement rules not allow a 1G ship to lift from a Size 8 world?

6....Why does Book 6 show escape velocity from a Size 8 world at something higher than a ship with a 1G drive can achieve?

7....And, are all the high ports and port-to-ground shuttle services only meant for unstreamlined starships when most of the ubiquitous Traveller designs are streamlined?

And...Point Number Eight is....

Originally posted by far-trader:
...the Solomani Free Trader is 2G! Ooops

That argument went bust before I started typing it up. In fact none of the CT AM6 ships is less than 2G. The Sols are smart enough to build their ships to land on their homeworld*. So there we have it, one more FACT on the side of local gravity counts

* btw, isn't the Vilani homeworld a little smaller and so 1G would make sense for them too?

GRATCI!

You're very welcome S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
You're very welcome S4

Great!

Now, get off your derf and help me figure out this fuel purfier thing...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
You're very welcome S4

Great!

Now, get off your derf and help me figure out this fuel purfier thing...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
You're very welcome S4

Great!

Now, get off your derf and help me figure out this fuel purfier thing...

</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, no can do, his evilness says I screwed up by helping you on the gravity thing and I have to leave something to keep the debate fires going

Maybe when he cools down a bit

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
You're very welcome S4

Great!

Now, get off your derf and help me figure out this fuel purfier thing...

</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, no can do, his evilness says I screwed up by helping you on the gravity thing and I have to leave something to keep the debate fires going

Maybe when he cools down a bit

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Otherwise, if Book 2 did it your way...if all a PC had to do in designing his ship was say, "I want my ship to be built to use unrefined fuel," then why would there be a unrefined jump penalty DM listed in Book 2 at all?

Because there are some ships which are specifically designed to require refined fuel precisely in order to make them less attractive to hijackers.

The fuel purifiers in the military (and quasi-military) vessels make more sense than what you're proposing.

Um, so, according to B2, how much do they displace and how much do they cost?

B2 is written B5-agnostic; nowhere in any version of B2 is there any evidence of the existence of shipboard fuel purifiers. They are a strictly post-HG artifact, but even later versions of B2 are BT-complete and do not require anything from later Books.

Sorry, but that's how it's written. Shipboard fuel purifiers just aren't there in B2, no matter how hard you care to look for them...