Gauss Pistol Damage

[marvo]

In Personal Weapons of Charted Space there is a Gauss Pistol listed with a damage of 1d12. Does anyone else think this is a bit high when comparing it with a regular autopistol with 1d10 damage?
Given the velocity is supposed to be very high, but then isn't the actual projectile quite small? If this is the case then a small projectile is less likely to do serious damage than a large one.
Personally I always imagined that what gives the Gauss eweapon it's stopping power is the very high rate of fire. In the rules for the pistol, this is a a 4 round burst giving an extra 2 dice of damage, which fits nicely with my view of the weapon. However, wouldn't 1d10 (or even 1d8) be a better base damage than 1d12?

 

[BetterThanLife]

It isn't the damage that suspends belief as badly as the other stat.

OK Here we have a TL13 weapon being compared to a TL7 one. (Probably late TL5 actually.) The Higher Tech Weapon is going to deal more damage. Especially when you read the original rules on what a Gauss Projectile is. Besides a Gauss Rifle, on single shot does 2D12 vs an ACR which does 1D12+2, and there is only a 2 Techlevel difference. (Quite a bit higher average, where the Gauss Pistol will only, on average, do one more point of damage than the Autopistol. )

The Range of the thing is the weird one. The only personal weapons in the THB or TA-1 with a bigger Rangeband are the Gauss Rifles and Grenade Launchers. Some of the crew served/support weapons have a longer rangeband but not many of them.

 

[vegascat]

E=M*C^2
The gauss pistol hits the C side of the equation heavily. Higher elocity projectiles will cause hydrostatic shoc to a wider area around the wound channel. The higher velocity projectiles lso have a much higher incident of fragmenting into shards each causing thier own wound channels after impact.

 

[veltyen]

The ranges for all pistols are a little odd. IMTU I cut them in 10 (45m becomes 4.5m) which matches the real world a little better. It also gives the GP an 8m range increment. Most militaries place a pistols effective range at 20-30m. As it is a GP with a good sight is currently one of the better sniper weapons.

The accuracy penalties for machine pistols make the reliable burst fire of the gauss pistol (with no penalty) as the big advantage. The additional range and x3 critical are just icing.

The better weapon to compare it too is a laser pistol rather then a 10mm slug thrower. 2d10 is a lot less effective then 3d12, but the ammo is far more convienient.

I always thought gauss weapons would if anything be slower firing then explosive chemical weapons. You need to wait for the rails[1] to discharge and cool off. I always imaged the VRF Guass as having MANY barrels (such as a 10x10 grid of barrels) to counteract this. Just like modern explosive chemical weapons you can also get arround this with additional cooling and discharge enhancement. Guass Rifles don't need to fire that fast, under T20 at most 50 rounds in 6 seconds. No LMG equivalent for Gauss weapon exists for starters, this would indicate that perhaps they fired a little slower.

[1] Probably rails. Some types of coilguns could also be used. Either way you have a lot of electromagnetic flux whipping around, which heats up nearby components very quickly.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by veltyen:
The ranges for all pistols are a little odd. IMTU I cut them in 10 (45m becomes 4.5m) which matches the real world a little better. It also gives the GP an 8m range increment. Most militaries place a pistols effective range at 20-30m. As it is a GP with a good sight is currently one of the better sniper weapons.

The accuracy penalties for machine pistols make the reliable burst fire of the gauss pistol (with no penalty) as the big advantage. The additional range and x3 critical are just icing.

The better weapon to compare it too is a laser pistol rather then a 10mm slug thrower. 2d10 is a lot less effective then 3d12, but the ammo is far more convienient.

I always thought gauss weapons would if anything be slower firing then explosive chemical weapons. You need to wait for the rails[1] to discharge and cool off. I always imaged the VRF Guass as having MANY barrels (such as a 10x10 grid of barrels) to counteract this. Just like modern explosive chemical weapons you can also get arround this with additional cooling and discharge enhancement. Guass Rifles don't need to fire that fast, under T20 at most 50 rounds in 6 seconds. No LMG equivalent for Gauss weapon exists for starters, this would indicate that perhaps they fired a little slower.

[1] Probably rails. Some types of coilguns could also be used. Either way you have a lot of electromagnetic flux whipping around, which heats up nearby components very quickly.

Actually most Machineguns have the same rates of fire as Assault Rifles. Some are a little faster some are a little slower, but generally in the same range. .50s and miniguns being the low and high end exceptions, and all of those are virtually exclusively vehicle mounts. I always pictured the VFR Gauss Gun as Cryogenically cooled single barrel. (The cooling system accounts for much of its size.) Now that may be because that is how it was described in LBB4.

There may be no SAW version of the Gauss Rifle because the SAW wasn't defined in the 70s. They existed but it wasn't defined and most of them, in that era, were simply assault rifles with extended mags and perhaps a longer barrel. TNE does have a Gauss Saw.

 

[Rossoneill]

If you want other types of gauss Weapons ,
look at T4 Emperors Arsenal for gaus shotguns, gaus support weapons and other nice ideas .
Of course you need to convert them to T20 or your favorite Traveller Brand .

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by vegascat:
Higher elocity projectiles will cause hydrostatic shoc to a wider area around the wound channel.

Gentlemen,

Before this nonsense goes any further, I want you all to go to this URL:

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

and read the official FBI report on how small arms actually kill people.

Let me quote this passage:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.

So let's hear no more foolishness about 'shock', 'wound channels', and 'stopping power'. Okay?

Carry on.


Bill

 

[parmasson]

From the report

Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle . . .

He was not talking about slow moving projectile. Would it make any difference if the projectile was moving at three or four times that speed? One would think that a projectile moving that fast would have different impact characteristics than a slow moving TL-7 slug?

 

[mike wightman]

That's an interesting article Bill, thanks for posting it.

This bit shows that the bad guy may get a few shots in before he expires:

Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
One would think that a projectile moving that fast would have different impact characteristics than a slow moving TL-7 slug?

Par,

And one would think wrong, just as our RPG hobby has been doing for decades now. Myself included!

Follow some of the links to the reports the study used. A faster projectile merely blows through more quickly, it doesn't do more damage. Only a certain amount of energy can be transfered from bullet to body and that transfer has an upper limit.

There is no 'stopping power' and there is no 'hydrostatic shock'. You have to get a 'CNS' hit or bleed them out.


Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Maybe the T4 3d cap on damage from high velocity slug throwers isn't so silly after all.

Perhaps hit location, degree of success, and blind luck should be factors in determining damage in rpgs.

 

[parmasson]

Mmkay
[edit]
Suppose that is why we use a hit location dice as part of our house rules. Head shots almost always kill (damage roll x2).
Limbs can be broken etc.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Parmasson:
One would think that a projectile moving that fast would have different impact characteristics than a slow moving TL-7 slug?

Par,

And one would think wrong, just as our RPG hobby has been doing for decades now. Myself included!

Follow some of the links to the reports the study used. A faster projectile merely blows through more quickly, it doesn't do more damage. Only a certain amount of energy can be transfered from bullet to body and that transfer has an upper limit.

There is no 'stopping power' and there is no 'hydrostatic shock'. You have to get a 'CNS' hit or bleed them out.


Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Actually Stopping power is very real and important. No matter how little penetration of your bullet proof vest that .45 gets it is going to knock you on your butt. Now Stopping power won't, in and of itself, kill you but it will disrupt you. If it knocks you off your feet then it will be a moment before you get to take an aimed shot at anything. Granted Ful Metal jacketed higher velocity bullets will go right on through and not transmit much of their force, but it only takes 500-700 foot pounds to pick you up and throw you down. (900 knocks down a deer.) A .45 will pick you up and throw you down, if it happens to hit you off center, like in the shoulder it is likely to make you do a fancy piroette as well. Bullets that are designed to not blow through, like the Glaser Safety Slugg is even nastier. And while a vest will stop a 12 guage it will still knock you on your butt. Remember if the vest stops penetration, you have delivered all the energy to the target and none of it has blown through. SO yes, there is an upper limit to energy transfer, that limit happens to be 100% of the energy of the bullet.

ALso remember that typical pistol is slow. Most are barely supersonic, several of the more dangerous pistols are actually subsonic. When you get into the rifle velocity ranges, things change. Gauss Pistols muzzle velocity is quite a bit higher than rifle velocity (Roughly 1.5 times that of a typical rifle) and even if you get blow through, which according to the description of the round in LBB4, and the normal behavior of fletchettes is unlikely, you are still going to transfer quite a bit of energy to the target.

When the M-16 was first deployed it was believed that it wouldn't be as effective as the 7.62mm it was replacing. Yet the M-16 works and is still in service. THe 5.56mm round is NATO standard and several other countries have adopted it, the SOviet Union, before its demise adopted a similar sized bullet the 5.45mm as standard. There is obviously something to be said about higher velocities.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Bhoins:Actually Stopping power is very real and important.

Bruce,

Let me quote again from the FBI study:

The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth.

What part of myth don't you understand? Go read the report and think again about gun shots knocking people on their ass.

By the way, I hunt and I've never knocked down a deer. They bleed out.


Bill

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
From the report
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle . . .

He was not talking about slow moving projectile. Would it make any difference if the projectile was moving at three or four times that speed? One would think that a projectile moving that fast would have different impact characteristics than a slow moving TL-7 slug? </font>[/QUOTE]Gauss Velocities are in the 4800-5000 feet per second range, rifles are typically under 3300 feet per second. (Mach 3)

 

[marvo]

Bill,
great article and it does mean that there is an upper limit to the amount of damage that a slug can cause. So maybe the Gauss pistol can do a little bit more than a regular pistol, but only if the caliber is about the same.
As I originally thought, the Gauss pistols power comes from it's accurate burst resulting in multiple hits. However, I have to agree with the comment someone made on the range. It's far too long for a pistol. Even with a laser sight it's real difficult to keep a handgun steady on a man sized target at 80m.
And regarding stopping power, that's kind of what the Hit/stun points represent in T20. A shotgun may knock you back but if you are wearing any decent armour it's going to have zero penetration and thus no real damage. After a few blasts you are going to get knocked out, but still no real damage.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Marvo:So maybe the Gauss pistol can do a little bit more than a regular pistol, but only if the caliber is about the same. As I originally thought, the Gauss pistols power comes from it's accurate burst resulting in multiple hits.

Marvo,

Accurate burst performance? That's as good a guess as any other. I'd stick with it!

However, I have to agree with the comment someone made on the range. It's far too long for a pistol.

Yes, definitely agree with everyone there. The range is ludicrous. Small barrel length, hand held, and all the rest that implies 'pistol'? Theorectical range is one thing, effective range is quite another even with that little red dot.

A shotgun may knock you back but if you are wearing any decent armour it's going to have zero penetration and thus no real damage. After a few blasts you are going to get knocked out, but still no real damage.

Yeah, just like the North Hollywood bank robbers, right?

Repeat afer me, knock down power is a myth. You need a 'CNS' shot or you need to bleed them out. Period.

Everyone has seen the video, Court TV must showcase it once a month, light infantry combat between the LAPD and two heavily armed bank robbers. How many times did the bad guys get hit? Dozens. The cops even went to gun stores to 'up gun' and 'up ammo' in an attempt to drop them. The robbers got peppered with shotguns, pistols, rifles, and the kitchen sink. Did you see them fall down? See any knockback?

No, you did not.

One was killed with a head shot. The other was dropped when someone wisely targeted his unprotected feet.


Bill

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
The other was dropped when someone wisely targeted his unprotected feet.

Must have watched "Ned Kelly".

 

[parmasson]

knock down power is a myth

Noooooooooooooooooooo

Ok, I repent.

I gonna need a G-carrier to make me feel better.

 

[veltyen]

Even with a laser sight it's real difficult to keep a handgun steady on a man sized target at 80m.

Effective range should be to about 5 increments (from various studies and listed weapon effective ranges according to the US army).

For example a carbine has a 250-300m effective range (for example the M4)

A rifle equivalent to the carbine has a 400-500m effective range (from the same source - M16Ax)

A pistol on the other hand has an effective range of 20-30m.

The rifle and carbine fit in quite well with a 5 increment range, giving an approximate 360m with the rifle (72*5) and 225m with the carbine (45*5) which is easily close enough for game purposes.

To fit in with realworld(tm) effective ranges a pistol with a 5m range makes a lot more sense. Giving a GP 8m (effective range 40m or so) still classes it better then a regular pistol, and still very useful and with the range to cope with shipboard and enclosed area combat quite effectively.

400m effective range with a pistol? Only if you have guided projectiles and a seperate laser designator with a high powered scope.

From Bhoins: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There may be no SAW version of the Gauss Rifle because the SAW wasn't defined in the 70s. They existed but it wasn't defined and most of them, in that era, were simply assault rifles with extended mags and perhaps a longer barrel. TNE does have a Gauss Saw.

</font>[/QUOTE]Um. I actually said LMG. Squad support LMG's are one of the weapons to come out of the Great War.

For WWII (TL5) examples see the Bren Gun, the MG42 and a variety of other LMG's. Just post WWII (TL6) you also have things like the M60.

In T20 terms all those Burst(20) LMG's. The ones capable of longer sustained fire (which is different from chamber rate, more to do with barrel cooling and changing ability).

This brings us full circle back to the discussion about Honor Harrington "light tri-barrel" weapons.