Getting on the ground....

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So, how would one duplicate the small craft designs in Book 2 if one wanted to?

Use the Striker Vehicle Design Rules.

Nope, that WILL produce totally different animals. I repeat, you can indeed duplicate the B2 designs (not just small craft but the starships as well) using B5 and some small presumptions.

I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues

Set me straight, then. I'm willing to listen and change my opinion.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues

Set me straight, then. I'm willing to listen and change my opinion.

 

[far-trader]

Short of time at the moment, I'll elaborate later. Primarily it's things to do with the differences in operating in space as opposed to on and above a planet. The differences between spacecraft and vehicles.

 

[far-trader]

Short of time at the moment, I'll elaborate later. Primarily it's things to do with the differences in operating in space as opposed to on and above a planet. The differences between spacecraft and vehicles.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.</font>[/QUOTE]See...the presumption here, that you are making (and that I made above with the Striker post), is that the G rating listed in Book 2 for the small craft is its G rating in a planetary atmosphere.

What if its not?

What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

If this is true (and both of our assumptions are wrong), then you can't duplicate the 20 ton launch from Book 2 using Book 5 design.

But, you can duplicate the launch using Striker Vehicle Design rules.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.</font>[/QUOTE]See...the presumption here, that you are making (and that I made above with the Striker post), is that the G rating listed in Book 2 for the small craft is its G rating in a planetary atmosphere.

What if its not?

What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

If this is true (and both of our assumptions are wrong), then you can't duplicate the 20 ton launch from Book 2 using Book 5 design.

But, you can duplicate the launch using Striker Vehicle Design rules.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

BTW, I'm starting to lean this way. That the 1G rating of the 20 ton launch is its space rating.

And that it can't land on Size 8+ worlds.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

BTW, I'm starting to lean this way. That the 1G rating of the 20 ton launch is its space rating.

And that it can't land on Size 8+ worlds.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The differences between spacecraft and vehicles.

Let me give you some ammo to hit me with:

Striker Vehicle design uses grav modules. There's a world of difference between a grav module and a maneuver drive. Just because their performance is measured in Gs of acceleration, it doesn't mean they're the same animals. Otherwise, grav belts would be too hot to wear.

But (Devil's Advocate for myself), Striker Vehicles do produce craft that can go into space, atmo fighters, air/rafts, G Carriers...maybe the system can be used for 20 ton launches too (especially since dual space/atmo fighters can be produced).

I think though, that 20 ton launches have some form of M-Drives on them.




You know...Maybe 20 to launches have two drives. One is grav based, like an air/raft, and one is a small maneuver drive for space operations.

Hmm...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The differences between spacecraft and vehicles.

Let me give you some ammo to hit me with:

Striker Vehicle design uses grav modules. There's a world of difference between a grav module and a maneuver drive. Just because their performance is measured in Gs of acceleration, it doesn't mean they're the same animals. Otherwise, grav belts would be too hot to wear.

But (Devil's Advocate for myself), Striker Vehicles do produce craft that can go into space, atmo fighters, air/rafts, G Carriers...maybe the system can be used for 20 ton launches too (especially since dual space/atmo fighters can be produced).

I think though, that 20 ton launches have some form of M-Drives on them.




You know...Maybe 20 to launches have two drives. One is grav based, like an air/raft, and one is a small maneuver drive for space operations.

Hmm...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues

Set me straight, then. I'm willing to listen and change my opinion. </font>[/QUOTE]I can but try

And thanks for the extra ammo Let's start with that...

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Striker Vehicle design uses grav modules. There's a world of difference between a grav module and a maneuver drive. Just because their performance is measured in Gs of acceleration, it doesn't mean they're the same animals. Otherwise, grav belts would be too hot to wear.

That's a big part of it. Heck even the B2 small craft drives and starship/large craft drives are different animals. Compare the fuel usage for one. Yet, even the small craft drives are and order or more bigger than vehicle drives. There has to be a reason.

Heat issues could be one, but I think it's more about efficiency (which the heat issue could be part of). The smaller, more efficient, grav based drives for vehicles like the Air/raft must lose effect as they get further from the strong gravity force they are countering, hence it takes hours to climb to orbit* instead of the minutes for a small craft. So they must be different scales. You'll also note that the Air/raft is described as not an interplanetary vehicle further marking the drive as incapable of thrust in space.

*Except for the Speeder, which must have it's own tricks, like maybe a jet thruster.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
But (Devil's Advocate for myself), Striker Vehicles do produce craft that can go into space, atmo fighters, air/rafts, G Carriers...maybe the system can be used for 20 ton launches too (especially since dual space/atmo fighters can be produced).

And I've said before, going into space, and coming back in good shape, are two different issues. Yes the Air/raft can go into space (barely). I don't think it can come back though. For that I believe you need streamlining, at least. Space fighters, designed under the vehicle rules, may work as such. So too will the Speeder. I'd have my doubts about the grav-carrier but at least it is enclosed and lightly armored

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
I think though, that 20 ton launches have some form of M-Drives on them.

Aaagh, how dare you summarize all that into one sentence!

I have more to add, but am out of time again, I'll try to be back shortly...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues

Set me straight, then. I'm willing to listen and change my opinion. </font>[/QUOTE]I can but try

And thanks for the extra ammo Let's start with that...

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Striker Vehicle design uses grav modules. There's a world of difference between a grav module and a maneuver drive. Just because their performance is measured in Gs of acceleration, it doesn't mean they're the same animals. Otherwise, grav belts would be too hot to wear.

That's a big part of it. Heck even the B2 small craft drives and starship/large craft drives are different animals. Compare the fuel usage for one. Yet, even the small craft drives are and order or more bigger than vehicle drives. There has to be a reason.

Heat issues could be one, but I think it's more about efficiency (which the heat issue could be part of). The smaller, more efficient, grav based drives for vehicles like the Air/raft must lose effect as they get further from the strong gravity force they are countering, hence it takes hours to climb to orbit* instead of the minutes for a small craft. So they must be different scales. You'll also note that the Air/raft is described as not an interplanetary vehicle further marking the drive as incapable of thrust in space.

*Except for the Speeder, which must have it's own tricks, like maybe a jet thruster.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
But (Devil's Advocate for myself), Striker Vehicles do produce craft that can go into space, atmo fighters, air/rafts, G Carriers...maybe the system can be used for 20 ton launches too (especially since dual space/atmo fighters can be produced).

And I've said before, going into space, and coming back in good shape, are two different issues. Yes the Air/raft can go into space (barely). I don't think it can come back though. For that I believe you need streamlining, at least. Space fighters, designed under the vehicle rules, may work as such. So too will the Speeder. I'd have my doubts about the grav-carrier but at least it is enclosed and lightly armored

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
I think though, that 20 ton launches have some form of M-Drives on them.

Aaagh, how dare you summarize all that into one sentence!

I have more to add, but am out of time again, I'll try to be back shortly...

 

[far-trader]

OK, part 2 of why Striker vehicles make poor Spacecraft:

Briefly, and I don't recall the Striker design sequence too well, but there are huge differences in the two (besides the drives above) that must account for something.

Take the structure, chassis(?) vs hull. There is a huge cost difference that must account for something. Maybe it's shielding against vacuum and radiation. Maybe it's a built in contragrav in the case of spacecraft. Or maybe it's the artificial gravity we all take for granted on spacecraft that is lacking on vehicles (and equally ignored). Maybe it's the attitude thrusters to orient the craft in zero-g. It's probably all that and more. But there are differences that need to be looked at. Operating a vehicle in space is quite different from operating one close to a world.

Then let's look at vehicle and craft control. Again, a huge difference points to more requirement for routine space operation than vehicle operation. A good part of the bigger volume requirements is to allow good movement and access, even in a Vacc-suit. Heck on the volume issue that even addresses some of the drive differences question. Spacecraft have room within the hull to access the drives so repairs and maintenance can be conducted in space, even while underway and in shirtsleeves. Try doing that on a vehicle, even in atmo

Most vehicles require the vehicle to be parked and the technician to be outside the vehicle, sometimes even with (critical) parts removed simply to access the item to work on.

I have a nagging feeling I'm forgetting something but as it's not coming it looks like no part 3. These are the biggies anyway I think.

 

[far-trader]

OK, part 2 of why Striker vehicles make poor Spacecraft:

Briefly, and I don't recall the Striker design sequence too well, but there are huge differences in the two (besides the drives above) that must account for something.

Take the structure, chassis(?) vs hull. There is a huge cost difference that must account for something. Maybe it's shielding against vacuum and radiation. Maybe it's a built in contragrav in the case of spacecraft. Or maybe it's the artificial gravity we all take for granted on spacecraft that is lacking on vehicles (and equally ignored). Maybe it's the attitude thrusters to orient the craft in zero-g. It's probably all that and more. But there are differences that need to be looked at. Operating a vehicle in space is quite different from operating one close to a world.

Then let's look at vehicle and craft control. Again, a huge difference points to more requirement for routine space operation than vehicle operation. A good part of the bigger volume requirements is to allow good movement and access, even in a Vacc-suit. Heck on the volume issue that even addresses some of the drive differences question. Spacecraft have room within the hull to access the drives so repairs and maintenance can be conducted in space, even while underway and in shirtsleeves. Try doing that on a vehicle, even in atmo

Most vehicles require the vehicle to be parked and the technician to be outside the vehicle, sometimes even with (critical) parts removed simply to access the item to work on.

I have a nagging feeling I'm forgetting something but as it's not coming it looks like no part 3. These are the biggies anyway I think.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.</font>[/QUOTE]See...the presumption here, that you are making (and that I made above with the Striker post), is that the G rating listed in Book 2 for the small craft is its G rating in a planetary atmosphere.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually no. Not in the sense that I add a G for space flight anyway. In the sense that I ignored local gravity yes. Though I am of a changed mind there.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
What if its not?

What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

If this is true (and both of our assumptions are wrong), then you can't duplicate the 20 ton launch from Book 2 using Book 5 design.

But, you can duplicate the launch using Striker Vehicle Design rules.

Well I can duplicate the B2 Launch in B5, exactly, even with 1G drives, but it's stupid to do so. It'd be like putting a 450hp motor in a muscle car and then screwing a block of wood under the accelerator pedal so all you can get out of it is 50mph with the pedal down as far as it can go. Because the smallest drive you can put in a B5 Launch will get you 2G unless you underpower it or put a governor on it to only allow 1G.

Like I said, stupid. And as it's the only small craft with 1G and the only one that would have a problem with landing and taking off of any world, it's doubly stupid. Unless the design purpose of it was so narrow, like a simple lifeboat to wait in space until rescued, in which case it doesn't even need any maneuver drive.

I think our definitions of "duplicate" may be different. For me, duplicating the B2 Launch in B5 for example meant aiming for the same volumes aboard. 1ton of fuel, 1ton of maneuver, 1ton of powerplant and 13ton of excess space, leaving 4ton for the minimum bridge. The fact that this can be done and achieve 2G just made sense.

Does your Striker designed Launch come up with the same volumes? I suspect you have much less fuel and drives, and even bridge, leaving a lot more excess space. Feels like cheating the system to me

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.</font>[/QUOTE]See...the presumption here, that you are making (and that I made above with the Striker post), is that the G rating listed in Book 2 for the small craft is its G rating in a planetary atmosphere.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually no. Not in the sense that I add a G for space flight anyway. In the sense that I ignored local gravity yes. Though I am of a changed mind there.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
What if its not?

What if those G ratings listed in Book 2 for small craft are considered the craft's space rating, just like the starships?

What if the 20 ton launch only produces 1G of acceleration in space?

If this is true (and both of our assumptions are wrong), then you can't duplicate the 20 ton launch from Book 2 using Book 5 design.

But, you can duplicate the launch using Striker Vehicle Design rules.

Well I can duplicate the B2 Launch in B5, exactly, even with 1G drives, but it's stupid to do so. It'd be like putting a 450hp motor in a muscle car and then screwing a block of wood under the accelerator pedal so all you can get out of it is 50mph with the pedal down as far as it can go. Because the smallest drive you can put in a B5 Launch will get you 2G unless you underpower it or put a governor on it to only allow 1G.

Like I said, stupid. And as it's the only small craft with 1G and the only one that would have a problem with landing and taking off of any world, it's doubly stupid. Unless the design purpose of it was so narrow, like a simple lifeboat to wait in space until rescued, in which case it doesn't even need any maneuver drive.

I think our definitions of "duplicate" may be different. For me, duplicating the B2 Launch in B5 for example meant aiming for the same volumes aboard. 1ton of fuel, 1ton of maneuver, 1ton of powerplant and 13ton of excess space, leaving 4ton for the minimum bridge. The fact that this can be done and achieve 2G just made sense.

Does your Striker designed Launch come up with the same volumes? I suspect you have much less fuel and drives, and even bridge, leaving a lot more excess space. Feels like cheating the system to me

 

[pendragonman]

When LBB5 came out and I tried to duplicate the small craft of LBB2, I naturally came out with some better performance ratings.

Silly me, I thought that the All Seeing/All Knowing Designer God had done that deliberately, to supersede the performance in LBB2 just to fix these kinds of issues.

 

[pendragonman]

When LBB5 came out and I tried to duplicate the small craft of LBB2, I naturally came out with some better performance ratings.

Silly me, I thought that the All Seeing/All Knowing Designer God had done that deliberately, to supersede the performance in LBB2 just to fix these kinds of issues.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Well I can duplicate the B2 Launch in B5, exactly, even with 1G drives, but it's stupid to do so.

[snip]

Because the smallest drive you can put in a B5 Launch will get you 2G unless you underpower it or put a governor on it to only allow 1G.

I don't buy this at all.

The 20 ton launch is a common vehicle--one of the mass produced standard designs. There's a 1 with a lot of zeros of them running around the Imperium.

According to Bk 5, the small M-Drive placed in a 20 ton craft would produce 2G acceleration.

There's no way I'm going to buy that a popular, mass-produced vehicle is designed at 1G when extra work would be required to get that drive downgraded from a 2G M-Drive.

Nope. The standard 20 ton launch would be a 2G vessel.

So...if the 20 ton launch wasn't created with Book 2 (it wasn't, because Bk 2 doesn't do small craft)

And...if the 20 ton launch wasn't created with Book 5 (it wasn't, or it would have a 2G drive)

Or...if the 20 ton lauch wasn't created with Striker Vehicle Design (it probably wasn't, because that design set doesn't have M-Drives)

...well, all I'm left with is a couple of big question marks.

The 20 ton launch can't be duplicated using any design set existing in CT.