Glisten

[GypsyComet]

people hollowing out asteroids and living in them is a well-established SF trope.

In a setting like this one, belts are going to run the gamut from gravel fields through accreted bodies to, at least in the areas affected by the Final War, flying mountains.

By TL15 there are likely ways available to take a rockpile asteroid and apply heat and make it a unified mass. Between gravitics and fusion it should be very doable.

In the short term we can probably infer something about a belt's composition and size distribution from the settled population, even if they are only trends.
Low Pop belts stand a higher chance of being gravel belts, IMO, since you must import *all* living space at significant expense.
High Pop belts are more likely to be Flying Mountain belts, since viable frames for living space are common, and each flying mountain can be settled to a high density.
As the TL climbs, the accreted body belts will become more viable at all population levels.

The asteroid types are also likely more common in certain positions. Because of their origins, gravel and mountain belts are going to be limited to actual belts, though the loners on highly eccentric and/or off-ecliptic orbits are also probably mountains. If you want to tweak the amateur astronomer in your group, put a mountain or two in the local gas giant's Trojans, which *should* be accreted most of the time. Trojan Points, particularly those associated with jovians, are locations of forced proximity, so accretion is almost an observable phenomenon. A Mountain in one of those locations is an oddity, especially if the system doesn't have a Mountain belt elsewhere...

 

[Aramais]

No doubt TL15 dectection and avoidance systems help a lot. And force fields. :devil:

Be that as it may, people hollowing out asteroids and living in them is a well-established SF trope.


Hans

I agree that the solid (formerly solid?) hollowed-out asteroids will be there as well. This would be both because it's a trope, and because a blown-up planet will have tossed out lots of bigger rocks, even mountains. If I implied that man-made habitats would be the EXCLUSIVE model, it was not intended.

What I intend to say is that a large number, perhaps the vast majority, will be in manufactured habitats, were I to be writing Glisten. Especially as Aramis has given even better reasons than did I.

Part of my reasoning is based in an assumption that nano-tech "spinning" of materials becomes possible somewhere after TL 10 (if I recall my own writing correctly). It's certainly available by TL 13, I would suggest, as we're closing in on it today. Once a semi-automated process can start with weaving the support cables ("spokes") and the outer skin of habitats, very light spin on the weaving hub helps push (pull?) the habitat ring segments away from the center.

With smart enough nano-tech, one can imagine a station weaving itself into an increasing diameter even while inhabited. Perhaps it is inhabited once it's a kilometer in diameter. As it expands out to a 2-k diameter, the people inside increase their own space.

For game-related reasons, OTOH, I selected a segmented approach. Build 2 440-meter segments, attach them to cables on opposite sides of the hub, begin extruding cable. When they are each about a kilometer from the hub, repeat the process four times. Result: one Stanford Torus, with the sole difference from the "original" being that each segment is capped, as it were, because this was an essential part of construction.

Oh, by the way -- I'm going to be mean and say, "Copyright (c) 2014 by Gregory P. Lee." I should write this up for either a future supplement on Torii, or for Imperiallines. You can steal the ideas, but not my expression of them.

Aramais, not to be confused with Aramis, that low-down name confusing git.

 

[aramis]

Aramais, not to be confused with Aramis, that low-down name confusing git.

I was here first, you're User #18504... I'm #168...

It should be noted that the understanding of most asteroids as shoals of smaller bodies loosely bound together into rubble piles was only realized in the last 18 years or so; it was widely believed in the 1980's that most asteroids would be solid bodies.

Traveller is a product of the eras in which it was written.

 

[Aramais]

I was here first, you're User #18504... I'm #168...

It should be noted that the understanding of most asteroids as shoals of smaller bodies loosely bound together into rubble piles was only realized in the last 18 years or so; it was widely believed in the 1980's that most asteroids would be solid bodies.

Traveller is a product of the eras in which it was written.

Well, you were HERE first...but Gamelords gave me that Aramais thing in 1982. I've cooked small children born before you, fella.

Anyway, We're not in much disagreement.

I went to the trouble of finding my Traveller's Digest 15 (I have some, by no means all).

First -- it has questionable canon value due to the fact that it cannot be widely and legally accessed. I can't scan out a copy, for example, and send it to you. GURPS thus assumes primacy.

Beyond that, it doesn't say anything about all habitats being in asteroids (though it may imply that). It does suggest that there are some big tunneled-out asteroids, obviously, and thesecan be considered some of those mountains. The whole "Gliss-ten" thing actually annoys me, though -- what's wrong with the system being name after the verb, "to glisten?"

I have now been force to pay $2.99 for the GURPS treatment.

 

[Aramais]

Well, you were HERE first...but Gamelords gave me that Aramais thing in 1982. I've cooked small children born before you, fella.

Anyway, We're not in much disagreement.

I went to the trouble of finding my Traveller's Digest 15 (I have some, by no means all).

First -- it has questionable canon value due to the fact that it cannot be widely and legally accessed. I can't scan out a copy, for example, and send it to you. GURPS thus assumes primacy.

Beyond that, it doesn't say anything about all habitats being in asteroids (though it may imply that). It does suggest that there are some big tunneled-out asteroids, obviously, and thesecan be considered some of those mountains. The whole "Gliss-ten" thing actually annoys me, though -- what's wrong with the system being name after the verb, "to glisten?"

I have now been force to pay $2.99 for the GURPS treatment.

Having skimmed the GURPS treatment, it appears that it emphasizes asteroid-based settlements, and has incorporated as canon some of the history set out in the DGP magazine.

I would have to read MUCH more closely to decide that the asteroid-based settlements discussed tallied out the entire population of 8 billion. I personally would assume that Glisten has a wide variety of different settlements and habitats; that much is made clear -- and makes a great deal of sense. Travelling within this belt would be time-consuming, even if gravitic thrust is available by virtue of always being close to a gravity well (albeit a small one). When people are far away from other people, they develop their own ways and styles.

 

[rancke]

First -- it has questionable canon value due to the fact that it cannot be widely and legally accessed. I can't scan out a copy, for example, and send it to you. GURPS thus assumes primacy.

You can write out the actual dry facts and send them. You can even post them on the wiki. You can't copy the text as such, but you can paraphrase.

The whole "Gliss-ten" thing actually annoys me, though -- what's wrong with the system being name after the verb, "to glisten?"

Before the first writer to do an official writeup of Glisten did it: absolutely nothing. After the writeup: The first writer to do an official writeup went with another idea, that's what's wrong.

I have now been force to pay $2.99 for the GURPS treatment.

Most canon material requires payment. $2.99 sounds quite cheap. Some canon material costs $19.95.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Well, you were HERE first...

HERE is where we ARE.


Hans

 

[Aramais]

You can write out the actual dry facts and send them. You can even post them on the wiki. You can't copy the text as such, but you can paraphrase.


Before the first writer to do an official writeup of Glisten did it: absolutely nothing. After the writeup: The first writer to do an official writeup went with another idea, that's what's wrong.


Most canon material requires payment. $2.99 sounds quite cheap. Some canon material costs $19.95.


Hans

Actually, Hans, the "dry" facts in a copyrighted work of fiction would be a derivative work in many circumstances. Please do not oversimplify copyright law. For example, I cannot for profit write, "Then Luke chopped off his father's hand" in the "Not the Star Wars Storybook." That is the law of copyright. Oh, and don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; I've studied it and (on rare occasion) had a chance to practice it.

Wikis exist for purposes of "fair use," which is a limited concept. The fact of the matter is, wikis exist as much because we have courtesy, not as a matter of right. They are NOT, per se, educational (Wikipedia may be an exception). Many IP owners take control of the wikis, for good reason: to avoid IP dilution. If the Mouse wants to piss people off, it CAN forbid quite a bit of derivative work from being sold, bartered, wiki'd etc., as the Mouse now owns the work previously owned by George Lucas and a zillion others in the business. And the Mouse is not generous.

In addition, there is the concept of courtesy to copyright holders. While I would dearly love to see the DGP material out there, and call it Canon, it's not, because an assignee owns it and refuses to allow reproduction or redistribution. Yes, in essence, one person with a block of text and pics has made MegaTaveller less fun, at best. I have been courteous to the IP owners and creators in my work, and intend to continue to do so. I got permission before I used adapted "dry facts" from BTC and other GURPS works, and will do so in the future.

Finally, there is practicality. If the original is hard to get hold of, it becomes a bad source of Canon.

Now, in reverse, what I say about the GURPS book is that it IS preemptively canon, unless Marc Miller says different. Thus, whether updated science likes it or not, there are big rocks in Glisten, and they are dense and solid enough to tunnel through. From this, we presume that there was a planet there a mere 300,000 years ago, and it got blasted.

We build from what IS canon.

That said, I continue to presume that there are plenty of non-asteroid habitats out there in the Glisten system.

I can't help my frowning over the "Gliss-ten" stuff. But it is indeed canon.

 

[Ulsyus]

By TL 15 the ability to create artificial habitats would be a pretty fine art after a few thousand years of this being done at different locations within and without the 3I. Just one small ringworld rotating almost perpendicular to the star (angled off for sunlight) would hold a few bods. Build several of those and you're on your way. With the use of adv interstellar tech and automation, plus a system's worth of a few blasted planets, and it's not that far a stretch.

 

[rancke]

Actually, Hans, the "dry" facts in a copyrighted work of fiction would be a derivative work in many circumstances. Please do not oversimplify copyright law. For example, I cannot for profit write, "Then Luke chopped off his father's hand" in the "Not the Star Wars Storybook." That is the law of copyright. Oh, and don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; I've studied it and (on rare occasion) had a chance to practice it.

I'm talking about what Marc Miller and other Traveller copyright owners allow us to do.

In addition, there is the concept of courtesy to copyright holders. While I would dearly love to see the DGP material out there, and call it Canon, it's not, because an assignee owns it and refuses to allow reproduction or redistribution.

The copyright owner has long ago acknowledged Marc Miller's right to use DGP material for background purposes.

Yes, in essence, one person with a block of text and pics has made MegaTaveller less fun, at best. I have been courteous to the IP owners and creators in my work, and intend to continue to do so. I got permission before I used adapted "dry facts" from BTC and other GURPS works, and will do so in the future.

Nothing wrong with that. Better safe than sorry. But Marc Miller is the one who defines canon, and it's pretty hard for him to do so without letting us know what said canon says.

Finally, there is practicality. If the original is hard to get hold of, it becomes a bad source of Canon.

That was true a couple of decades ago. Nowadays you can ask in one of the big Traveller online communities and someone will most likely help you out. Or you can ask Marc Miller or one of his minions; if he wants you to stick to canon, he has to tell you what canon says. Want to know what Stranded on Arden, a pretty obscure and hard-to-get-hold-of source, establishes about Arden? Ask.

We build from what IS canon.

And Marc Miller defines what IS canon.


Hans

 

[Aramais]

I'm talking about what Marc Miller and other Traveller copyright owners allow us to do.


The copyright owner has long ago acknowledged Marc Miller's right to use DGP material for background purposes.


Nothing wrong with that. Better safe than sorry. But Marc Miller is the one who defines canon, and it's pretty hard for him to do so without letting us know what said canon says.


That was true a couple of decades ago. Nowadays you can ask in one of the big Traveller online communities and someone will most likely help you out. Or you can ask Marc Miller or one of his minions; if he wants you to stick to canon, he has to tell you what canon says. Want to know what Stranded on Arden, a pretty obscure and hard-to-get-hold-of source, establishes about Arden? Ask.


And Marc Miller defines what IS canon.


Hans

On the last point, Hans, we finally fully agree on something.

 

[Aramais]

By TL 15 the ability to create artificial habitats would be a pretty fine art after a few thousand years of this being done at different locations within and without the 3I. Just one small ringworld rotating almost perpendicular to the star (angled off for sunlight) would hold a few bods. Build several of those and you're on your way. With the use of adv interstellar tech and automation, plus a system's worth of a few blasted planets, and it's not that far a stretch.

"Small ringworld." There's a concept.

I got the impression that a ringworld was NOT feasible for the 3I tech levels. And, rather than go with vague recollection, I just looked it up; in the T5 book, at least, they appear at TL 27.

I'm going to keep coming back to, "Many options, many varieties."

 

[rancke]

By TL 15 the ability to create artificial habitats would be a pretty fine art after a few thousand years of this being done at different locations within and without the 3I. Just one small ringworld rotating almost perpendicular to the star (angled off for sunlight) would hold a few bods. Build several of those and you're on your way. With the use of adv interstellar tech and automation, plus a system's worth of a few blasted planets, and it's not that far a stretch.

The Imperium doesn't have a material strong enough to build a ringworld out of.

I have been thinking of a ringworld on a much smaller scale, lit by an artificial lightsource in the middle. I've no idea what dimensions would be practical at TL15, but it would (IMO) be a decent substitute for a "real" ringworld.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The Imperium doesn't have a material strong enough to build a ringworld out of.

I have been thinking of a ringworld on a much smaller scale, lit by an artificial lightsource in the middle. I've no idea what dimensions would be practical at TL15, but it would (IMO) be a decent substitute for a "real" ringworld.


Hans

I thought that's what he meant by a "small" ringworld": a ring city. Basic spinning ring habitat, but with a clear inner wall/roof and a reflector at center to reflect sunlight through the roof of the ring. Dimensions, I think, depend on whether you spin it up or use artificial gravity. If it's not under load, it can be larger. On the other hand, if you're using artificial gravity, you could just make a plate.

 

[GypsyComet]

Various other IPs call small rings "Halos" or "Orbitals", depending on where they are built. Halos are rings around planets that are not linked beanstalks (ala Clarke), while Orbitals are essentially really large stations in free orbit.

 

[Ulsyus]

"Small ringworld." There's a concept.

Alright already, I admit my terminology was a little off by several degrees of magnitude. Bah humbug.

I thought that's what he meant by a "small" ringworld": a ring city. Basic spinning ring habitat, but with a clear inner wall/roof and a reflector at center to reflect sunlight through the roof of the ring. Dimensions, I think, depend on whether you spin it up or use artificial gravity. If it's not under load, it can be larger. On the other hand, if you're using artificial gravity, you could just make a plate.

That's the one Carl, one of those things using grav technology to reduce the load but still have an amazingly large habitat.

Various other IPs call small rings "Halos" or "Orbitals", depending on where they are built. Halos are rings around planets that are not linked beanstalks (ala Clarke), while Orbitals are essentially really large stations in free orbit.

It's the large station that would be found in Glisten, either within or near the asteroid ring, or in orbit around gas giants. Once the first one's build and proven to be viable, more could follow more readily.

 

[Aramais]

Alright already, I admit my terminology was a little off by several degrees of magnitude. Bah humbug.



That's the one Carl, one of those things using grav technology to reduce the load but still have an amazingly large habitat.



It's the large station that would be found in Glisten, either within or near the asteroid ring, or in orbit around gas giants. Once the first one's build and proven to be viable, more could follow more readily.

Bah humbug to you too, pal.

I'm not sure that grav technology is needed to lighten the load. A lot of this depends on materials.

That said, one thing I will suggest is that we look at the scale of other designs. For example, the Elysium station was said to be sufficient to house a half million people. That's 2000 for the first billion people. Manufactured by experienced tradesmen, how many could be completed per year? I imagine that it would be like opening up a new subdivision now and again.

Note that larger stations require lower spin rates to provide artificial gravity. The Stanford Torus, about 2 km in diameter, has a a 1 RPM rate. Some of my reading suggests that 2 RPM is the max before nausea, though other sites suggest a higher rate can be handled by the inner ear.

O'Neill Cylinders can house and feed about a half-million people, based on one conservative set of calculations. At 8 km diameter and 32 km long, they are large and spacious. By design, these are deployed in pairs for counter-rotation. They are like sturdier than torii of any comparable population, and they quite obviously use different lighting set-ups.

Someone noted the giant pie-plates idea, which is also quite feasible, though these would not have to be huge. Instead they could be much smaller -- say, 1 - 2 km disks with domed set-ups. Grav plates could provide artificial gravity, or they could be set up on "bolas," beginning with two spinning around a hub capable of adding more (much as I suggested that a Stanford Torus could be built in segments). The "grav-plate edition" has the benefit of allowing easy coupling by cable and linkage tube. Over time, a huge honeycomb-ish thing is built, its "ground" blocking solar radiation and mirrors and lighting providing light on the cheap.

I also noted in the skimming that Bilstein Yards has a sub-specialty in constructing habitats (in the GURPS, I believe). This is a brilliantly placed factoid, making me appreciate that $2.99 quite a bit more. Surely ("Don't call me Shirley") that hints that Bilstein has taken local contracts -- indeed, it may have started into starships after first being "Bilstein Construction Co." and operating thousands of yellow Caterpillar Modular Space Tractors.

 

[GypsyComet]

It's the large station that would be found in Glisten, either within or near the asteroid ring, or in orbit around gas giants. Once the first one's build and proven to be viable, more could follow more readily.

Maybe. An easy way to extend an asteroid is to build an anchored ring around it. Some will eventually consume the entire asteroid to build the ring, while others may get stuck (or simply be caught in the 1105 snapshot) in a middle state. Some might even remain in processing mode and operate as refineries, moving to a new asteroid once the old one is either rubbled or ready for habitation.

 

[Aramais]

It's the large station that would be found in Glisten, either within or near the asteroid ring, or in orbit around gas giants. Once the first one's build and proven to be viable, more could follow more readily.

By the time of the 3I, I suspect that the designs would exist and be proven, subject only to improvement as better materials and techniques evolve.

 

[aramis]

The Imperium doesn't have a material strong enough to build a ringworld out of.

I have been thinking of a ringworld on a much smaller scale, lit by an artificial lightsource in the middle. I've no idea what dimensions would be practical at TL15, but it would (IMO) be a decent substitute for a "real" ringworld.


Hans

I thought that's what he meant by a "small" ringworld": a ring city. Basic spinning ring habitat, but with a clear inner wall/roof and a reflector at center to reflect sunlight through the roof of the ring. Dimensions, I think, depend on whether you spin it up or use artificial gravity. If it's not under load, it can be larger. On the other hand, if you're using artificial gravity, you could just make a plate.

Thinking on this, you don't actually NEED a light source at center.

The spinning ring is good for gravity. A 200km diameter ring can generate 1G with 1 rotation per 15 minutes (well, 3 seconds shy of 15). 10000km does it in 106 minutes.

Tilt the ring in respect to the star, and use shutters for day/night, and a shiny arced central pillar that focuses to the ring, and you can get a ring that no one aboard really notices the rotation unless they look out the window.