GRiP & GRiP 4?

[BetterThanLife]

Hunter,
Almost a year ago you mentioned GRiP 4. You talked about it for a week and then suddenly stopped talking about it. You also talked about things like getting the Scheduler working in the current version of GRiP.

Where are we on this?

 

[cq081]

Indeed Hunter, you did the same last year in the GRiP Community boards - a week or two of chat and then nothing. Can we have an update, please?

 

[Berg]

iCoN 08 is coming up... would be good to have a precense and some news...

There's a bunch of us willing to playtest whatever you have, barring that, fix the mapping, the scheduler and create a presence at COTI... if you need help... I tried contacting you....

 

[Maladominus]

There was a very poignant thread/discussion at the RPGnet boards. The thread question was basically along these lines:

"Why the hell have Virtual Tabletops not become hugely popular yet? Isn't it obvious that legions of gamers still DESIRE to play real-time tabletop role-playing games with their friends, while at the same time want to be able to do so in this Age of Internet Computing? This is an era when it is difficult for veteran gamers to gather local friends on a gaming Sunday any more. But shouldn't we be able to do this using a client-server model? Just look at MMORPGs, they certainly have succeeded in getting tens of millions of gamers to "gather together and play together" on a mass-scale basis, using exactly a client-server model. So why can't virtual tabletops accomplish something similar?"


Right. And the best answer was?

Drum roll please....

Drum roll please....


Because the right (software) product has not been introduced yet. That's why.

Once someone actually comes out with a breakthrough product, a software package that allows RPG lovers to play their beloved RPGs *using* Internet/IP technologies easily, seamlessly, with minimal programming/scripting knowledge, and allowing them to connect and play easily with friends across nations, across continents, across time zones .... the first company to succeed doing that on a mass-marketed scale will reap unimagineable profits and sales.

And I totally agree. "The Right Product" simply has not appeared yet. There are several that are trying to stumble towards that role, but (in my opinion) have not gotten there yet. GRIP certainly was a very good early attempt in the right direction. Sadly, GRIP is about as outdated as Windows 98, and GRIP has not been updated to keep up with the expectations of modern software and modern online client-server capabilities.

It's a shame, really. Because having used GRIP for 2.5 years in my own fairly-successful and still-going online Traveller campaign, and having extensive hands-on GM experience with GRIP (especially my own frustrations with GRIP, as well as the few things it "got right" to begin with) I could imagine that a modernized version of GRIP could have been a candidate for "The Right One" that would revolutionize the way we play traditional tabletop RPGs on the Internet.

 

[hunter]

Yeah I know. I'm not happy about it myself. At the time it looked like I would have the available free time to put considerable work into it again. I was wrong and have had to put my efforts into other project first. I know it isn't what you want to hear.

This is a small operation with me handling most of the tasks. That means I have to focus on those projects that have the most potential for the effort involved. Sucks, but reality. I work on GRiP as I have the time, but right now I still don't have a version of v4 that is stable enough for open testing.

Right now my main focus is on 3 main projects that I've got to get completed. I should be able to get some extra time for GRiP once I can get one or more of those off the table. But I can't promise it, look what happened last time

Now, if you know anyone who is a crack VB and Windows API coder and might be willing to work with me on the new version, I can probably work something out and we can get this moving again. I'd want to see a sample of work and code along the lines of complexity of GRiP however. If that's you, drop me an email to grip (the @ sign) and lets talk.

And before anyone suggests it, no I'm not going to go open source with the code.

 

[BetterThanLife]

So we are looking at, given the production periods around here, no less than another year out?

 

[hunter]

So we are looking at, given the production periods around here, no less than another year out?

Depends. Feel like running a GRiP Traveller campaign using the new rules from the Moot and dealing with seriously alpha software?

 

[Berg]

...dealing with seriously alpha software...

What works and what's broken...?

Is it a complete rewrite or is there stuff that could be used as a patch...?

The scheduler and Coti precense could surely be rectified...

Just thinking of short term / mean time solutions...

 

[hunter]

What works and what's broken...?

Heh, that's why I need victi...I mean 'helpers'

Seriously it 'seems' basically functional but I have done zero real testing. Mapping isn't in. Right now CSML is working, new sheets are working, communications seems to be working.

I haven't done any real testing beyond dummy connections. One of the reasons I could actually use some people to test some stuff with. I need to get this basic core down solid anyway. This isn't for the feint of heart however :devil: It WILL crash at some point. Usually at the most annoying times, and if in the middle of play it will be a bug that I can't find fast and issue an immediate fix for.

With the original development we actually ran a campaign from the raw early versions through the latest version. The early sessions were interesting to say the least. We usually met once a week and played either until we got tired or the program crashed to the extent we couldn't play anymore that night. I'd try to have a fix ready by the next week's session.

Playing and testing the SF20 rules for a few hours and working on GRiP once a week I can probably swing. I don't have anything remotely resembling the slightest possibility of trying to run a game myself on top of that and everything else I need to work on.

It would probably take me a week or so to get what I have together enough to hand over to said victims. And that won't be a fancy install.

Is it a complete rewrite or is there stuff that could be used as a patch...?

This is a complete rewrite of the core.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Depends. Feel like running a GRiP Traveller campaign using the new rules from the Moot and dealing with seriously alpha software?

To be honest, I don't like the new rules enough to spend the needed time on getting the Character sheet set up and keeping it up to date. (If I can make that much time in the first place.) Besides testing software where you are tweaking the sheets doesn't sound like a good idea. Did it crash because of the software or a change to the character sheet? One or the other should be stable. I have a stable T20 and Shadowrun sheet, both of which would put the software through its paces. If you have looked at them, neither is a simple sheet, the Shadowrun sheet pushes the envelope of what the current GRiP is capable of and includes some nasty code to work around what GRiP isn't capable of. Knowing what I know now, I could probably clean up the T20 sheet some, and give it a few more features.

However I tried to put this type of thing together over 6 months ago and everyone bailed on me.

While I don't mind testing the software, I would have to put a campaign and a group together first. I would have to build character sheets under the new software. (And keep the sheets current.) But if I am going to put in that much work, it would have to be a game system I want to Referee and spend that kind of time with.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The scheduler and Coti precense could surely be rectified...

Just thinking of short term / mean time solutions...

Notice that got ducked again.

 

[Berg]

It would probably take me a week or so to get what I have together enough to hand over to said victims. And that won't be a fancy install.

Well if you want some input, I'm sure a few of us a willing to do some hammering...

 

[Berg]

BTW Hunter, I finished the GRiP conversion of Epic Adv #1 - Stoner express, if your interested...

 

[Tragin]

.
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Now, if you know anyone who is a crack VB and Windows API coder and might be willing to work with me on the new version, I can probably work something out and we can get this moving again.
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If I only had the time, this would be a fun project.

 

[lordmalachdrim]

Right now I'm run two campaigns online: HackMaster and Dark Heresy. Though sadly neither are using GRIP currently. I wouldn't mind moving one or both to test a new GRIP. Or starting a Traveller game (as soon as one them falls apart) to test it.

 

[heruca]

Once someone actually comes out with a breakthrough product, a software package that allows RPG lovers to play their beloved RPGs *using* Internet/IP technologies easily, seamlessly, with minimal programming/scripting knowledge, and allowing them to connect and play easily with friends across nations, across continents, across time zones.

And I totally agree. "The Right Product" simply has not appeared yet. There are several that are trying to stumble towards that role, but (in my opinion) have not gotten there yet.

For a couple of years, now, I've been trying to develop "The Right Product", with my Battlegrounds: RPG Edition software. I would welcome your ideas and suggestions that you think would make a virtual tabletop program succeed where others have failed. Please PM me, or better yet, post your ideas and feature requests on my forums. This goes for everyone, not just Maladominus.

the first company to succeed doing that on a mass-marketed scale will reap unimagineable profits and sales.

I have to disagree with that bit, though. IMO, RPGs are too much of a niche market, and even if you DO develop the killer VT app, most people won't want to pay for it. And because there are already so many free VTs available, the potential market for such an app shrinks significantly, leaving little room for commercial endeavors to succeed.

Perhaps WotC's upcoming Game Table VT will prove me wrong, but I think their subscription-based model (which is priced almost in the same league as subscriptions to major MMO's, like World of Warcraft), is preposterously overpriced.

 

[Berg]

Welcome Heruca!

I'm incognito here...

Perhaps WotC's upcoming Game Table VT will prove me wrong, but I think their subscription-based model (which is priced almost in the same league as subscriptions to major MMO's, like World of Warcraft), is preposterously overpriced.

I'm watching this closely too, as I know the future of RPG's lies somewhat with the net, or at least it should be taken advantage of... the subscription model may work for D&D and the support they can give, but for playing RPG's in general over the net, another app would probably serve better... may it be BG or GRiP...?

 

[tdwyer11b]

I'm incognito here...

Hey Em...errr....Berg

 

[Berg]

Hey Em...errr....Berg

Welcome... soon we will have a new version of Traveller to try over the X-Boat system

 

[Maladominus]

I have to disagree with that bit, though. IMO, RPGs are too much of a niche market, and even if.....

Isn't this the same thing that "everyone" said about online multiplayer gaming back in the days when MUDs, MUCKs, MUSH, and MOOs, and BBS online gaming were in existence since the 1980s? Yes. They said this about such nerdy games for a couple decades. That it would never become mainstream. That it would always remain a niche market targeted for nerds and role-playing intellectuals. Oh right. And then suddenly..... two games changed everything. Ultima Online and Everquest. UO and Everquest..... perfect examples of "The Right Product", appearing at the right time, marketed the right way, taking advantage of the right conditions (the explosive growth of the Net in the late 90s).

And everything after UO and EQ become history. Today, we have World of Warcraft claiming over 15 million Koreans and Chinese subscribing players. But even World of Warcraft and all modern MMORPGs pretty much are rooted on the original "successful formula" of the two MMORPGs that pioneered the genre into a mainstream sensation: UO and EQ.

Much the same thing could be said about the belated E. Gary Gygax. Had it not been for Gary Gygax's successful efforts to turn a "killer app" game like Dungeons and Dragons into a commercial (mainstream recognition) success..... the RPG industry as we know it might not have appeared. Does this mean that Gary's D&D was the very first ever role-playing game? Of course not. There were a handful of others that existed before D&D. But D&D was legendary because IT was the first one to succeed where others have failed, and D&D was credited for turning geeky role-playing games into something that mainstream society became aware of.

It would have been possible that Gary Gygax would have had D&D as a killer app, but possibly that Gary would have dropped the ball and had made unwise decisions that could have resulted in poor distribution and poor marketing of the game. And then D&D would never have become a commercial success. So, on this one point, I will concede...... just having a "killer app" is not enough.

Whew! I think I wrote too much. Time for me to head back to my cave.