Gun Maker Issues

[atpollard]

I plan on simply ignoring the whole mess, as I do not use the Traveller combat system anyway, and in my Traveller Universe, there are no man-portable energy weapons, and not a lot of ship-based ones. I have a standard weapons set, and if a player really, really wants to try to design their own weapon, I figure on hitting them with a 100,000 Credit up front development charge, and about 6 to 12 months passage of real time before the player knows if the thing works at all. If he/she/it goes with a custom cartridge, cost goes up another 100,000 Credits, and ammo runs 10 Credits per round, with a minimum purchase of 1,000 rounds. If the player still wants to go on, I will suggest that they find another GM.

I look at Gun Maker as one of the areas in the rules that could be jettisoned with no loss whatsoever.

Your game, so your rules ... but don't wildcatters produce small batches of hand-loaded cartridges for a lot less than $400,000 to $500,000 initial startup costs?
The .454 Casull comes to mind.

 

[Timerover51]

Your game, so your rules ... but don't wildcatters produce small batches of hand-loaded cartridges for a lot less than $400,000 to $500,000 initial startup costs?
The .454 Casull comes to mind.

Along with the .30 Herett, a fire-formed case based on the 30-30 round; the .22 Spitfire, the .30 caliber carbine round necked down to .22; the original .220 Swift, a 6mm Lee-Navy case necked down to .22; the .45-.38, a .45 ACP case necked down to .357; the .25-06, a .30-06 case necked down to .25 caliber, and a large number of other wildcat cartridges, some of which have been commercialized.

If a player wants a custom caliber handgun, or a custom caliber single-shot or bolt action rifle, even after looking through the Gun Digest Annual, Small Arms of the World, Infantry Weapons of World War 2, and Military Small Arms of the 20th Century, I will then role-play the player locating a gunsmith capable of making such a weapon, role-play negotiating the price and delivery date, along with ensuring a supply of the proper type of cartridges and their price, along with who is responsible for supplying them. All this while the rest of the players are probably thinking how to dispose of this individual as soon as possible. I will add Social Status as a modifier, either plus or minus, depending if he/she/it is a member of the nobility in or near their fief.

If the player wants a custom caliber assault rifle, aside from again negotiating all of that, I will charge him according to the previously quoted rates. Then make a roll for him/her/it surviving the remainder of the session. The die roll modifier will be more and more negative the more of my time he/she/it wastes.

 

[aramis]

Your game, so your rules ... but don't wildcatters produce small batches of hand-loaded cartridges for a lot less than $400,000 to $500,000 initial startup costs?
The .454 Casull comes to mind.

They're not having to custom make the dies to cast the casings, tho'.

Cutting the dies is not cheap. Casting the dies is cheaper...

There are commercial casters making .454 casings, and the ammo can be standard .45 ball, or actual .454 ball. So, it's not really a big investment to produce custom batches; most of the "custom" .454 ammo isn't really - it's people pulling batches of off the shelf components and mating them.

Sometimes in very interesting ways... like the .454 round that's firing a .45 ring-cutter that's been scored with 3x .22 LR bullets inside, and the sabot for the ring propelling the lot... results in 6 projectiles from one shot (plus the sabot at short ranges).

Or the 45 round that uses #8 shot in a 3-part shot-cup sabot. (Varmint rounds. Or home defense. Won't go through 3/8" sheetrock reliably, and won't go through 1/2" except when in barrel to wall contact.)

Or the (highly illegal) 45 JHP with a bb and a large rifle primer in the hollow... Makes a nifty cavity on impact. Guy I know got tossed from a range for using them - took chunks (1" wide, 1/2" deep craters) out of bowling pins.

 

[robject]

I find two large problems with Gun Maker and Personal Combat as they stand.

One is the use of weapon descriptors as ammo descriptors. [...]

Awhile back I played with the ability to shift damage values back and forth to represent different types of ammo. So (as a made-up example) Blast-4 Pen-1 could be replaced with Blast-3 Pen-2, Blast-2 Pen-3, or Blast-1 Pen-4.

 

[David Johansen]

So, Rob, you're the guy with the apps. In what order do you apply the multipliers?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

They're not having to custom make the dies to cast the casings, tho'.

Cutting the dies is not cheap. Casting the dies is cheaper...

There are commercial casters making .454 casings, and the ammo can be standard .45 ball, or actual .454 ball. So, it's not really a big investment to produce custom batches; most of the "custom" .454 ammo isn't really - it's people pulling batches of off the shelf components and mating them.

Sometimes in very interesting ways... like the .454 round that's firing a .45 ring-cutter that's been scored with 3x .22 LR bullets inside, and the sabot for the ring propelling the lot... results in 6 projectiles from one shot (plus the sabot at short ranges).

Or the 45 round that uses #8 shot in a 3-part shot-cup sabot. (Varmint rounds. Or home defense. Won't go through 3/8" sheetrock reliably, and won't go through 1/2" except when in barrel to wall contact.)

Or the (highly illegal) 45 JHP with a bb and a large rifle primer in the hollow... Makes a nifty cavity on impact. Guy I know got tossed from a range for using them - took chunks (1" wide, 1/2" deep craters) out of bowling pins.

So, some responses and questions.

Actually doing the die casing shouldn't be that expensive once you hit TL-9 where the sterolithography (3d printers) should be cheap and reliable. We have folks building handguns out of plastic parts that were manufactured by sterolith here on TL-8 Earth, in the future it should be even better quality and cheaper. So, I disagree with the set up costs for the machining. Now the R&D might run up a tab, but again that should be a few thousand.

Okay, I do admit I am like 10 years out of my gun-bunny stage, but I do try and keep up so it is midly embarrassing to admit, not quiet sure what a "ring cutter" round is. I picture it as a hollow tube (ick wounds), but figured I best check myself before I wreck myself. So, what the fanark is a "ring cutter"?

And last, I knew .45 was one of the most moddable rounds but exploding hand crafted rounds is a new one on me. Nasty easy to make from the sound of it too. Revolutionaries of the worlds rejoice! A cheap, hand made round that counters the State's control of munitions. Provided you can get them... :devil:

Plus last I checked as the Referee I was under this impression that I was there to facilitate the Players having fun. If creating custom gear, ships, motorcylces or whatever is fun for the Player shouldn't I encourage them?

 

[Epee]

Was that addressed to me as a question as to the rule system used?

I would be interested in what system you are using.

 

[aramis]

So, some responses and questions.
Okay, I do admit I am like 10 years out of my gun-bunny stage, but I do try and keep up so it is midly embarrassing to admit, not quiet sure what a "ring cutter" round is. I picture it as a hollow tube (ick wounds), but figured I best check myself before I wreck myself. So, what the fanark is a "ring cutter"?

And last, I knew .45 was one of the most moddable rounds but exploding hand crafted rounds is a new one on me. Nasty easy to make from the sound of it too.

They are exactly that - a ring of copper with the outside diameter equal to the caliber. They were 1cm long, 2mm thick. They had a 1mm thick sabot of copper which had a rabbeted lip, so that the ring had something to propel it. The ones my roommie had were just rounded enough to work in his m1911. Against typical range targets, they cut a near-perfect 0.48" circle every time.

The sabots were always non-reusable - they always dished forward enough that they'd not seal if you managed to recover the ring...

Very light, and thus rather high velocity from an m1911...

They were specifically for target shooting.