GunMaker 5.0.9

[agorski]

I'm working on a GunMaker iOS app and am now testing gun designs. All of the examples in other threads here appear to have been designed using the original design sequence instead of the 09 revised design sequence. A few threads have asked questions about the revised design sequence but haven't gotten any answers. So I'm trying to hopefully get some input on my assumptions for parts of the design sequence that are ill-defined at present.

Page 200 of T5.0.9 provides a list of GunMaker samples which is loaded with obvious and not-so-obvious errors:

P-5	Pistol -5 R=2 Cr150 1.1 kg Bullet -1
Re-4	Revolver -4 R=2 Cr100 1.2 kg Bullet -1
C-5	Carbine -5 R=4 Cr400 3 kg Bullet -1
XC-3	Experimental Carbine -3 R=3 Cr1600 6 kg Bullet -1
PC-6	Poison Dart Carbine -6 R=4 Cr360 3.0 kg Poison -1 Bullet -1
R-5	Rifle -5 R=5 Cr500 4 kg Bullet -2
PR-4	Prototype Rifle -4 Cr1500 7.6 kg Bullet -2
XR-3	Experimental Rifle -3 Cr2000 8 kg Bullet -2
SR-5	Survival Rifle -5 R=2 Cr600 2 kg Bullet -3
Mg-6	Machinegun -6 R=5 Cr3000 8 kg Bullet -4
aCT-9	AutoCannon Turret -9 R=6 Cr30000 300 kg Pen-5
ESMg-4	Early Sub Machinegun -4 R=1 Cr3240 4 kg Bullet -3
XRSMg-4	Experimental Recoilless Sub Machinegun -4 R=0 Cr32,400 5.7 kg Bullet -5
ABR-9	Advanced Battle Rifle -9 R=5 Cr800 3.2 kg Bullet -7
ABC-9	Advanced Battle Carbine -9 R=5 Cr640 2.4 kg Bullet -6
ACR-10	Advanced Combat Rifle -10 R=3 Cr1500 2.8 kg Bullet-4 Frag -2
ACC-10	Advanced Combat Carbine -10 R=3 Cr1200 2.1 kg Frag -2 Bullet -3
AC-7	Assault Carbine -7 R=4 Cr600 2.4 kg Bang -2 Blast -1 Bullet -1
GC-12	Gauss Carbine -12 R=4 Cr800 2.7 kg Bullet -4
MslL-7	Missile Launcher -7 R=6 Cr5000 22 kg Pen-2 Frag -3
RAML-8	RAM Grenade Launcher -8 R=6 Cr3000 10 kg Frag -2 Blast-2
GmL-9	Grenade Multi-Launcher -9 R=4 Cr3000 6.48 kg Frag -2 Blast-2
ShPj-9	Shock Projector -9 R=2 Cr600 0.5 kg Pain -2 Elec -2
FPj-8	Fire Projector -8 R=1 Cr600 0.9 kg Burn-1 Pen-1
APj-9	Acid Projector -9 R=3 Cr900 1 kg CORRODE-3 Pen-0
SPj-12	Stench Projector -12 R=2 Cr360 0.4 kg Stench -1
LD-12	Laser Designator -12 R=5 Cr12,000 12 kg Burn -2, Pen-2

In interpreting vagueness in the rules, I've currently made the following assumptions:

* Where a Type lists "*" for the H1 value, I add the D1 value to the Descriptor's D2 value only, not the D3 value (if it exists)

* Where the Type H1 value is the same as the Descriptor H2 value, I add the D1 and D2 values together

* Where Burden and Stage modify D, I add this to D1, unless D1 doesn't exist, in which case I add it to D2

* Where D2 and D3 are listed as "1-2-3" I use "1" as the value, as I have no idea what this means.

So here's the same list of GunMaker samples as generated by my code:

P-5	Pistol-5 Wx: R=2 Cr150 1.1kg Bullet-1
R-4	Revolver-4 Wx: R=2 Cr100 1.25kg Bullet-1
C-5	Carbine-5 Wx: R=4 Cr400 3kg B=-1 Bullet-1
ExpC-2	Experimental Carbine-2 Wx: R=3 Cr1,600 6kg R=-2 B=+2 Bullet-1
PC-6	Poison Dart Carbine-6 Wx: R=4 Cr360 3kg B=-1 Bullet-1 Poison-1
R-5	Rifle-5 Wx: R=5 Cr500 4kg Bullet-2
PR-3	Prototype Rifle-3 Wx: R=4 Cr1,500 7.6kg B=+2 Bullet-2
ExpR-2	Experimental Rifle-2 Wx: R=4 Cr2,000 8kg R=-2 B=+3 Bullet-2
SR-5	Survival Rifle-5 Wx: R=2 Cr600 2kg Bullet-3
Mg-6	Machinegun-6 Wx: R=5 Cr3,000 8kg B=+1 Bullet-4
aCT-8	Autocannon Turret-8 Wx: R=6 Cr30,000 300kg B=+4 *-5
ESMg-4	Early Sub Machinegun-4 Wx: R=1 Cr3,240 4.08kg E=-1 B=+2 Bullet-3
ExpRSMg-3	Experimental Recoilless Sub Machinegun-3 Wx: R=0 Cr32,400 5.76kg R=-2 B=+4 Bullet-4
ABR-9	Advanced Battle Rifle-9 Wx: R=5 Cr800 3.2kg B=-2 Bullet-5
ABC-9	Advanced Battle Carbine-9 Wx: R=5 Cr640 2.4kg B=-3 Bullet-4
ACR-10	Advanced Combat Rifle-10 Wx: R=3 Cr1,500 2.88kg B=-3 Bullet-4 Frag-2
ACC-10	Advanced Combat Carbine-10 Wx: R=3 Cr1,200 2.16kg B=-4 Bullet-3 Frag-2
AC-7	Assault Carbine-7 Wx: R=4 Cr600 2.4kg B=-1 Bullet-1 Blast-2 Bang-1
GC-12	Gauss Carbine-12 Wx: R=4 Cr800 2.7kg B=-1 Bullet-4
MLC-7	Missile Launcher Crewed-7 Wx: R=6 Cr5,000 22kg B=+2 Frag-3 Pen-2
RAML-8	RAM Grenade Launcher-8 Wx: R=6 Cr3,000 10kg B=+1 Frag-3 Blast-2
GrmL-9	Grenade Multi-Launcher-9 Wx: R=4 Cr3,000 6.4kg B=+1 Frag-3 Blast-2
ShPj-9	Shock Projector-9 Wx: R=2 Cr600 0.5kg Elec-2 Pain-1
HPj-9	Fire Projector-9 Wx: R=1 Cr600 0.9kg Burn-2 Pen-1
APj-9	Acid Projector-9 Wx: R=3 Cr900 1kg B=+1 Corrode-3 Pen-1
SPj-12	Stench Projector-12 Wx: R=2 Cr360 0.4kg Stench-2
LD-12	Laser Designator-12 Wx: R=5 Cr12,000 12kg B=+1 Burn-2 Pen-1

Note the Autocannon example. There is no (blank) descriptor option for artillery and a descriptor must be specified, hence the bogus damage type.

So school me up on my assumptions and convince me of the errors of my ways.

 

[David Johansen]

My samples were all done with 5.09. And yeah, it's still vague and weird in a lot of places. I'm also absolutely sure that the heavy and light burden categories are available for lasers and stuff like snub and magnum are not, regardless of what the chart says.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Noooooo!

I will have my Magnum Snub Laser Carbine, I will, you hear me! :devil:

Yeah, I need to get back to the Makers again. And yes, there are still some parts that are a smidge confusing.

And even though I probably won't be able to use it, thanks for the App.

 

[agorski]

Here's another assumption I made which I forgot to put in the original post:

* The Burden entries for Body, Snub, and VHeavy have an asterisk on the Range value. Totally undefined. I'm assuming that instead of adding these Range values that they should REPLACE what you already have. As if the asterisk was an "=".

 

[SanDragon]

As long as I don't see an autosnub or a sonic weapon, I'll be fine.

*grumbles* no way in hell can you control an autosnub without stabilization technology that would make it too bulky, and don't tell me you can fire a sound-based weapon and not blow out your own ears.) */grumblies*

 

[Original_Carl]

Not to get too hand-wavy, but we are talking about the far future. Any sufficiently advanced buzzword is indistinguishable from magic and all that applies here, I think.

Why not a magnum heavy laser pistol? Does it just sound dumb?

 

[David Johansen]

Can't have two Burden qualifiers that's why.

 

[agorski]

GunMaker 5.0.9 pg. 219

Is anyone else confused by the QREBS mods when specifying Options?

Why does camouflage and plastic construction reduce safety?
Why does a silencer and stable platform reduce ease of use?
Why does a flash suppressor reduce burden?

 

[Reban]

Is anyone else confused by the QREBS mods when specifying Options?

Why does camouflage and plastic construction reduce safety?
Why does a silencer and stable platform reduce ease of use?
Why does a flash suppressor reduce burden?

Hmmm good questions. I'll attempt the obvious answers first:

Plastic Construction (and low signature metal construction) in order to make the weapon less detectable means that there's a design compromise.

You are using materials that are less able to withstand the pressures involved in CPR weapons or the power outputs of energy weapons so the likelihood od the weapon failing increases.

Why might camouflage make it less safe? Maybe we have to think differently about what camouflage means.... its not simply painting it green and black or putting a desert camo wrap on the weapon or even adding bits of scrim and tape so that it matches you gillie suit...maybe this level of camouflage is turning your stub pistol into a pen gun, or your gas projector into an umbrella, Maybe your submachine gun is now disguised as a brief case.

Maybe its still not obvious in a common sense world but have you ever seen a spy movie where the villain uses the spy's pen to scratch behind his ear? or where the umbrella gas gun goes wrong and the cloud of gas blows back in the users face.

Besides that, for game balance there has to be a downside to getting a good mod on your task roll when sneaking your camouflaged weapon through security, or while planting your camouflaged grenade along the Dukes favorite garden path there is a risk it'll go off in your face.

Silencers are generally big and bulky compared to the barrel of the weapon they are fitted to. Although most modern suppressed rifles are really quite elegant and well designed they are still heavier and a different balance to the suppressed model. Adding a silencer to a gun or pistol increases the length overall and makes it nose heavy. Try holding a pistol with a silencer. The weight will affect your aim and make your wrist tired if you have to hold your aim for too long. Other methods of silencing weapons may kae them harder to maintain, or degrade their designed performance requiring the operator to compensate, hence the Ease of Use modifier.

Stable platform (and Gyro-stabilized). Consider what that means; you're adding something to the weapon to stop it moving and make it more solid when firing. The usual method for this is to fit a mono-, bi-, or tri-pod to the weapon. That means mass and sticky-out bits. Other things you can do are add weight or mass to some part of the weapon to improve balance and absorb recoil. Recoil can also be handled by mechanical means, dampers buffers, big springs, rope or something more complicated involving active components. One more favorite stable platform trope in sci-fi is the mount or rig that allows the weapon to float or balance on an arm attached to the user or vehicle; think the machine gun in Aliens.

Adding the above complexity to any weapon will make it harder to use but will improve your chance of hitting what you're aiming at.

Now why does the flash suppressor reduce burden? <Shrug>
I have no idea on this one because to suppress or hide the flash you usuall have to add something to the muzzle or exhaust to hide or reduce the visual signature. To me that suggests that the Burden modifier should be positive or that it should be a negative mod to Reliability.

One for the errata thread perhaps?

 

[Epee]

Adding a flash suppressor means that a barrel can be shortened while the level of flash produced remains the same.

 

[Reban]

Adding a flash suppressor means that a barrel can be shortened while the level of flash produced remains the same.

But the level of flash doesn't remain the same, its significantly reduced: "Mod -4 Visual Detection in Darkness." p.219

So thats a flash suppressor added to a standard barrel, not affecting the Burden in any perceptible way. Or rather it should increase the Burden by adding mass, lenght and making a weapon more unwieldy.

 

[agorski]

Good points. All I know is that if you stack up a bunch of these options you will get some wacky QREBS values.

 

[Epee]

But the level of flash doesn't remain the same, its significantly reduced: "Mod -4 Visual Detection in Darkness." p.219

So thats a flash suppressor added to a standard barrel, not affecting the Burden in any perceptible way. Or rather it should increase the Burden by adding mass, lenght and making a weapon more unwieldy.

Right, it is the equivalent of having a far longer barrel, but in a far shorter space. Hiders thread onto the barrel and, being little more than the barrel diameter and with large holes, add scant ounces to a barrel which has had metal removed (in order to be threaded for the hider) and are generally less then 4 inches long; not enough to increase bulk in practical terms.

If you need real world proof, go to a gun shop and ask to handle versions of the AR-15 with and without flash hiders.

 

[Reban]

Right, it is the equivalent of having a far longer barrel, but in a far shorter space. Hiders thread onto the barrel and, being little more than the barrel diameter and with large holes, add scant ounces to a barrel which has had metal removed (in order to be threaded for the hider) and are generally less then 4 inches long; not enough to increase bulk in practical terms.

If you need real world proof, go to a gun shop and ask to handle versions of the AR-15 with and without flash hiders.

Your thinking is too narrow here. What you're describing is a flash hider or suppressor for a rifle.

Flash in T5 is an effect that results in a Bright or Mag signature for Plasma, Fusion, Missiles, rockets, RAM Grenades, Fire weapons, EMP, Gauss, Mag and Shock weapons.

Actually if I'm reading this table on p.218 correctly then traditional CPR small arms and artillery don't have "Flash" special effects.

Maybe that's an errata point.

What's being described are the bright flashes that say something has just been launched at you. From an engineering stand point all the ways of reducing this kind of signature that I can think of require adding to the weapon in ways which would increase the Burden.