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Gunner Optional?

opensent

SOC-12
I'm confused on the role of gunners. Are they entirely optional if you have the right programs loaded into the computer? Is their only benefit interacting with the gunnery interact program and adding modifiers to starship combat?

PS: This is for book 2 starship combat..
 
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Yes, I believe that gunners are optional in LBB2 combat.

On the other hand, the Referee is within his rights to assign penalties to a Pilot who is also directing the ship's weapons fire (per rules on characters performing two jobs).

Also, some of the programs only RETURN fire - a gunner can take pre-emptive action. Most small computers cannot run all of the programs at once and Gunner Interact takes less space than many of the other programs.
 
The decision to carry gunners aboard or not has always been about economics. A subsidized merchant or megacorp freighter has less reason to want gunners - if they get attacked, the plan is non-resistance, and the insurance company pays for the losses. So why hire gunners and show hostile intent? Also by not firing on pirates one can expect to not be fired into, thus reducing damage & repair costs to the ship. But a Free Trader has no back-up plan so it's only wise to have someone & something on board with which to defend the ship. It's all about who you are and where you're operating.
I never understood the rules to mean that the ship can fire its weapons by computer only - but then I've never wanted to turn final control of my ships over to computers. Even if Traveller had commonly reliable AI, I'd still want to have human hands at the controls.
Your universe, however, may differ. Play it the way you want to.

Best Regards,

Bob W.
 
Even today, most weapons systems on a modern warship are aimed, programmed, and fired by computers.

All the Gunner's Mate does is select which target, which missile/gun/torpedo, and how many... then push the red button.

The computer does the rest.



There are many development programs in the US military for "hands-off" target/weapon selection programs, simple versions of which have already been in service for years, and advanced versions for the "autonomous UCAV" programs which are also under development.


I see no reason why, with at least 2 more tech levels of improvement, a Gunner should be needed at all... except for the politically-driven "a sapient being must always have over-ride capability of any autonomous weapons system" requirement.
 
... except for the politically-driven "a sapient being must always have over-ride capability of any autonomous weapons system" requirement.


Which is ironic if you compare the number of real world 'Serial-Killer' appliances vs 'Serial-Killer' sapient beings. ;)
 
I'm confused on the role of gunners. Are they entirely optional if you have the right programs loaded into the computer? Is their only benefit interacting with the gunnery interact program and adding modifiers to starship combat?

PS: This is for book 2 starship combat..

As written, they're "optional" as far as roster is concerned; in a pinch, such as an unexpected combat that erupts during an otherwise-routine "milk run", any available crew member can man a turret station and pull the trigger.

The basic software, however, requires a "man in the loop" to work (although Anti-Missile might be an exception); if your spacecraft has weaponry that can target and fire offensively on its own without the participation of a sophont, you're technically flying a warbot, and warbots are frowned upon in many circumstances...
 
I think the big difference, game-wise, is the Gunner Interact program. Without a gunner, you're firing an 8+ chance to hit. Gunner Interact allows you to take advantage of that Gunner-3 gunner, throwing a 5+ to hit.
 
I'm confused on the role of gunners. Are they entirely optional if you have the right programs loaded into the computer? Is their only benefit interacting with the gunnery interact program and adding modifiers to starship combat?

PS: This is for book 2 starship combat..

In a word, no.

With the usual caveats that YTU can be whatever you want and this applies only to CT and primarily LBB1-3 and that I may have missed something even after all these years.

The preponderance of evidence is overwhelmingly clear that the intent is that a sophont is required for each turret, and they need a minimum skill of Gunnery-1. I grant the actual wording of the rules may have been clearer to make that intent more obvious. My interpretation follows each brief note in italics...

Book 1 - p19 Gunnery - "qualifies... to operate" without the skill you may not operate ship and vehicle weapons

Book 2 - p9 Mail... - "gunner must be a part of the crew" perhaps just a legal requirement but regardless of the reason it is a requirement

Book 2 - p16 Gunner - "armed small craft require a gunner... " while later clarified that the Pilot may fire the weapon it is done at a -1 and the Pilot is still required to fire it and have at least Gunnery-1 (and fires it at skill minus 1)

Book 2 - p16 Gunner - "may be omitted if there is no immediate major threat..." so only if you won't need to use the weapons will you not need a Gunner

Book 2 - p19-20 Ships - each example, seven ships in total, show that Gunners are added if weapons are added, and the ship with actual weapons installed includes Gunners in the crew pretty clear

Book 2 - p23 Crew - "Gunner - As required" which seems well implied to mean if you intend to fire your weapons

Book 2 - p27 Combat - "indicate the expertise of the gunner manning the turret" another pretty clear indication that each turret to be fired requires an actual sophont in the seat

Book 3 - 22 Vehicles - "ATV... crew of 3... one with gunnery skill" to show the application of the skill again and requirement of the sophont

And finally the computer programs, not required for actually firing but advantageous (small craft at least may fire weapons without a computer but do so at -1 to hit and cannot add gunner skill) all but one of eight imply the need for a gunner, and one is specifically for a gunner. The exception, and it is clear that it is an exception, is Anti-Missile and all it can do is fire at missiles that are about to hit the defending ship. It does not even require the Target program. This clearly indicates that Anti-Missile is completely under computer control AND that the Target program is designed to be used under sophont control. The upshot (if you'll pardon a small pun) of this is that Gunnery skill is likely a computer interface type skill, not an aiming skill. This is reinforced by the Gunner Interact program. You get to add your Gunnery skill when using the Interact program and not without it.

Depending on how you want to count the above you could have over 20 arguments for the case that gunners are required to fire vehicle, small craft, and large ship weapons in anger. And only 1 argument that gunners are not needed and then only to fire in self defense at a clear threat from a specific type of weapon, missiles.

That's my take on it anyway but to borrow a sentiment I hold dear, it's your game, play it how you want to, and have fun!
 
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Usually, I see eye-to-eye with you Far Trader, and I admit, I'm wishy-washy on this. But, I don't think there's any clear, cut-n-dried evidence that gunners are actually required to fire weapons.

Especially, when this is possible...

[/I]Book 2 - p16 Gunner - "armed small craft require a gunner... " while later clarified that the Pilot may fire the weapon it is done at a -1 and the Pilot is still required to fire it and have at least Gunnery-1 (and fires it at skill minus 1)

My interpretation is that it's a good idea to have a gunner, but not necessarily mandatory.

What about batteries on large starships via Book 5? Does each and every single weapon (or turret) require a gunner? Are mulitple weapons slaved together? If three weapons can be operated by one gunner in a 100 ton plus starship turret, then can more weapons be fired by one gunner in a battery on a large vessel?

I've always played where gunners are used for turrets on PC ships. But, think of missle defence. Those don't require gunners. The turrets still fire on incoming missiles.

So, it seems that it is implied in the rules that gunners, although the best idea for a turret, is not necessarily required.

This is supported in the rules where it talks about crewmembers doing more than one job (at one level lower than given). Thus, the pilot of a starship could still fire the weapons of a single turret if the pilot had at least Pilot-1 and Gunnery-1, operating at Pilot-0 and Gunnery-0.

While the "knowhow" is still required to fire the weapons (thus, the gunnery skill), an actual person filling the gunner position is not required.

So, I think the skill is required, which makes is most efficient if a person does a single job. But, I also think someone like the Navigator could fill two roles on the ship, if he has the skills, and both would be used at one level lower.
 
In a word, no.

With the usual caveats that YTU can be whatever you want and this applies only to CT and primarily LBB1-3 and that I may have missed something even after all these years.

The preponderance of evidence is overwhelmingly clear that the intent is that a sophont is required for each turret, and they need a minimum skill of Gunnery-1. I grant the actual wording of the rules may have been clearer to make that intent more obvious. My interpretation follows each brief note in italics...

Book 1 - p19 Gunnery - "qualifies... to operate" without the skill you may not operate ship and vehicle weapons

Book 2 - p9 Mail... - "gunner must be a part of the crew" perhaps just a legal requirement but regardless of the reason it is a requirement

Book 2 - p16 Gunner - "armed small craft require a gunner... " while later clarified that the Pilot may fire the weapon it is done at a -1 and the Pilot is still required to fire it and have at least Gunnery-1 (and fires it at skill minus 1)

Book 2 - p16 Gunner - "may be omitted if there is no immediate major threat..." so only if you won't need to use the weapons will you not need a Gunner

Book 2 - p19-20 Ships - each example, seven ships in total, show that Gunners are added if weapons are added, and the ship with actual weapons installed includes Gunners in the crew pretty clear

Book 2 - p23 Crew - "Gunner - As required" which seems well implied to mean if you intend to fire your weapons

Book 2 - p27 Combat - "indicate the expertise of the gunner manning the turret" another pretty clear indication that each turret to be fired requires an actual sophont in the seat

Book 3 - 22 Vehicles - "ATV... crew of 3... one with gunnery skill" to show the application of the skill again and requirement of the sophont

And finally the computer programs, not required for actually firing but advantageous (small craft at least may fire weapons without a computer but do so at -1 to hit and cannot add gunner skill) all but one of eight imply the need for a gunner, and one is specifically for a gunner. The exception, and it is clear that it is an exception, is Anti-Missile and all it can do is fire at missiles that are about to hit the defending ship. It does not even require the Target program. This clearly indicates that Anti-Missile is completely under computer control AND that the Target program is designed to be used under sophont control. The upshot (if you'll pardon a small pun) of this is that Gunnery skill is likely a computer interface type skill, not an aiming skill. This is reinforced by the Gunner Interact program. You get to add your Gunnery skill when using the Interact program and not without it.

Depending on how you want to count the above you could have over 20 arguments for the case that gunners are required to fire vehicle, small craft, and large ship weapons in anger. And only 1 argument that gunners are not needed and then only to fire in self defense at a clear threat from a specific type of weapon, missiles.

That's my take on it anyway but to borrow a sentiment I hold dear, it's your game, play it how you want to, and have fun!


Ok, thanks! This is very helpful!
 
My take on this, having always used the same evidence as Far Trader, is that gunners are required.

Striker mentions that pilots of aircraft may fire 'fixed forward firing mounts' and I interpret this in space combat to mean that a pilot can slave one or more turrets to his console, but only to fire in the forward firing arc. If you want a tail-gunner you need flesh and blood out back.

I also rule that if guns are arranged in batteries AND the computer is significantly larger than the minimum requirement, it may be fitted with a Battery Firing program that allows crew to be reduced to one gunner per battery - but you still need at least one gunner per battery.
This cuts down enormously on the cabin requirements for large warships.
 
Isn't it funny how often you can be sure you know the rule, but can't find it anywhere in the books?

I would have sworn there was a rule on fixed-forward mounts being usable by the pilot (or ships-boat driver, in the case of an armed ship's boat). There isn't a second position for a gunner, and it's not needed anyway because "forward" is exactly where the driver is looking. Turrets are designed to look in other directions, so need another pair of eyes to use them effectively.

And I always imagined gunner-interact being like the software on Millennium Falcon, tracking targets and projecting the angle-off for the gunner to fire far enough ahead to hit them. Not that lasers actually need travel time, of course, they travel at the speed of light, so that's clearly nonsense.
 
Isn't it funny how often you can be sure you know the rule, but can't find it anywhere in the books?

I would have sworn there was a rule on fixed-forward mounts being usable by the pilot (or ships-boat driver, in the case of an armed ship's boat). There isn't a second position for a gunner, and it's not needed anyway because "forward" is exactly where the driver is looking. Turrets are designed to look in other directions, so need another pair of eyes to use them effectively.

It's in the Solomani supplement. The Solomani favor fixed forward firing mounts (say that three times fast ;)).
 
Isn't it funny how often you can be sure you know the rule, but can't find it anywhere in the books?

I would have sworn there was a rule on fixed-forward mounts being usable by the pilot (or ships-boat driver, in the case of an armed ship's boat).
Alien Module 6: Solomani has rules for fixed mount weapons.

Up to two weapons per hardpoint, no fire control required, operated by a gunner on the bridge, with a -2 DM. Personally, I'd also allow the pilot to use them, with an appropriate DM for doing two jobs at once.
 
Not that lasers actually need travel time, of course, they travel at the speed of light, so that's clearly nonsense.

Depends on the range. Military ships can detect targets up to two lightseconds out and, even with a laser, four seconds is quite a lag, trying to hit a small, fast target, from more than a half million kilometres away.
 
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[LBB2, pg 29]
Laser return fire is conducted by those ships which have been targets for laser fire from enemy weaponry in the preceding laser fire phase. Both the target and
return fire programs must be in the CPU for return fire to be performed. Laser return fire may only be directed at an enemy ship which fired at this ship. Laser
return fire may be made against multiple enemy ships only if the multi-target program is also present.

Anti-missile fire also takes place in the laser return fire phase. It is dependent on the anti-missile fire program. For anti-missile fire to be performed, no target program is necessary.

[LBB2, pgs 38-39]
Target identifies enemy vessels and controls all turrets on board ship. It is required for all laser fire and launches except anti-missile fire. It provides no DMs of its own.

Multi-target is a series of programs that interface the ship's detectors and radar with several turrets and allows an attack on more than one target at one time. Each turret may still only fire at one specific target, but different turrets may fire at different targets. This program is required if more than one ship target is fired on in the same phase. The target program is also required.

Return fire allows a ship's lasers to fire at enemy ships which fired at the ship in the immediately previous fire phase. Use of this program also requires the target
program, and DMs allowed by other programs (such as gunner interact) are allowed. If more than one enemy ship is fired on, the multi-target program is also required.

Anti-missile allows any or all laser weaponry to fire at enemy missiles which have contacted the ship during the preceding movement phase. The target and multi-target programs are not required. Other programs do not effect the functioning of this program (with DMs, etc.).

What in any of this prevents a pilot from loading the “anti-missile” program into his computer, and allowing the computer to shoot at incoming missiles without ANY human input?

What would prevent the pilot from loading the “Target” and “Return fire” programs into his computer, and allowing the computer to shoot back at enemy ships without ANY human input?

What would prevent the pilot from loading the “Target”, “Return fire” and “Multi-target” programs into his computer, and allowing the computer to shoot back at multiple enemy ships without ANY human input?

To those who would argue that EACH turret REQUIRES a gunner, what is the function of the “Return fire” and “Multi-target” programs?
 
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To those who would argue that EACH turret REQUIRES a gunner, what is the function of the “Return fire” and “Multi-target” programs?

Um, um, BECAUSE!! :)

Yeah! So there!

Seriously....

I think we might be stuck in-between our imperfect remembrances of movies and TV shows where you needed "gunners" for dramatic tension, and the reality that computers in the future ought to be able to do this stuff without humans needing to be in the loop. I rather like the idea that gunner are optional - but - having them allows "good shots" to give an edge over what the computers could do.
 
Well, there is how the tech should/does work, and then there is the way Imperial Regulations work.


As noted above, there are two different things being discussed that share the same name.

1. Gunner: a person operating weapons... usually one with certified skills to do so

2. gunner: the skill which certifies a sophont (sapient being) has the training and knowledge to operate weapons


This plays out as follows:

While the weapons computers are certainly capable of operating autonomously, Imperial regulations forbid this except in the case of purely defensive use (as exemplified by the Anti-missile program). This is often called "Sophont-in-the-circuit".

This is enforced by the requirement (backed up by frequent inspections of both manufacturing plants and in-service ships) that all potentially offensive weapons computers must use a certified Target program, and that all Target programs must have a lock-out.

This lockout prevents their use unless a certified Gunner has entered his certification credentials into the built-in scanner, and is periodically entering his authorization code to prove continued supervision of the weapons.

This does not require that the Gunner is a crewman dedicated to that position... anyone certified for at least gunner-0 in that weapon type will satisfy the program's lock-out.

Anyone with the gunner skill can operate the weapons, and can operate more than one mount/turret, if the ship is so equipped, so long as he is only operating those weapons which he is certified for. All other weapons will be disabled.



For insurance purposes, any ship carrying more than a certain number of mounts/turrets is required to have the appropriate number of crew employed specifically as Gunners, with only secondary duties in other areas.




At least that is how I have always read the rules.

Of course, many of the less-lawful ships have bootleg Target programs that provide "hands-off" operation of offensive weaponry, but penalties for being caught in possession of such programs is usually confiscation of the weapons aboard the ship, and additional penalties are added for actually using such programs.
 
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I have always played it that Gunnery skill only improves what a machine can do. Otherwise, it is like Star Wars, sure Droids can attack Kenobi and co. but it takes an Anakin to really defeat a foe. Or a Luke relying on blind luck to destroy a small moon. Sure computers can do the task but they can only do so on projection of probabilities but not anticipation of what another sentient might be thinking.
 
It's in the Solomani supplement. The Solomani favor fixed forward firing mounts (say that three times fast ;)).

Actually, in my typical line of work, aft-firing often comes in handier.

Note, however, that even Solomani-style fixed mounts require a "gunner on the bridge" to operate them; for missiles and sand, Gunner-0 ought to be enough, and bear in mind the old rule about one crew member serving in two positions at Skill minus 1 in each...
 
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