Have you ever considered how vast the 3rd Imperium is?

[GypsyComet]

The J4 XBoats carry *all* the news, and are a network with a lot of nodes. *Every* node gets the news dump.

By comparison, the J6 couriers, both the known Naval Couriers and the unknown Crown Couriers (like the TI/TJs), are express delivery services. They aren't talking to every stop.

"Put this in the News feed" and "Alert the Emperor" are two different tracks.

 

[rancke]

The J4 XBoats carry *all* the news, and are a network with a lot of nodes. *Every* node gets the news dump.

By comparison, the J6 couriers, both the known Naval Couriers and the unknown Crown Couriers (like the TI/TJs), are express delivery services. They aren't talking to every stop.

There are probably some local news that only go by X-boat. But the stories that people care about in the next sector over will probably fit in the capacity of the couriers. And if you make just two J6s, you're already ahead of the news on the X-boats.

"Put this in the News feed" and "Alert the Emperor" are two different tracks.

Yes, but 'report to the Emperor' and 'Instruct the dukes and the admirals and the subsector directors' are on the second of those tracks. And that track was the original purpose of the X-boats. The domestic news distribution is a role the X-boats have degenerated to. Even if the library data haven't been updated to reflect that.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

It would have to be a pretty stupid megacorporation that doesn't maintain its own J6 couriers too.

Many of the subsector dukes should be able to afford a few J6 couriers too. Knowledge is power, and a couple of weeks advance notice of major events can have a considerable impact.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

The Great Jump-7 Conspiracy.

Well, since we know (meta-game) that there are things like the Hop Drive, perhaps the big secret isn't the Jump-6 couriers, but the Jump-10 (Hop Drive) couriers and the J-6/7 couriers are covering them. So having a conspiracy running suggesting Jump-7 couriers is quietly "encouraged" to keep folks from figuring out the existence of the genuine Jump-10 couriers. Just a thought.

 

[samuelvss]

The J4 XBoats carry *all* the news, and are a network with a lot of nodes. *Every* node gets the news dump.

By comparison, the J6 couriers, both the known Naval Couriers and the unknown Crown Couriers (like the TI/TJs), are express delivery services. They aren't talking to every stop.

"Put this in the News feed" and "Alert the Emperor" are two different tracks.

Very much so.

IMTU, I have the Fleet Couriers set up in a secret network, that act like X-boats, but are demand-only. Only a flag ranked commander can task them to transmit a message, and they would jump to the next node on the route, transmit to the next ship, which jumps out immediately. Auxiliary ships at the site would fuel the incoming ship; in extremis, an inbound ship will be refueled and sent on. The Fleet Couriers are meant to get the message there as quickly as possible, so each "leg" is J-6. Depending on the routing of the message, auxiliary ships from the node may further disseminate it into the X-boat network. The nodes are typically in remote locations or in deep space; they are relocated on a secret schedule, that is set months ahead.

 

[esampson]

Well, since we know (meta-game) that there are things like the Hop Drive, perhaps the big secret isn't the Jump-6 couriers, but the Jump-10 (Hop Drive) couriers and the J-6/7 couriers are covering them. So having a conspiracy running suggesting Jump-7 couriers is quietly "encouraged" to keep folks from figuring out the existence of the genuine Jump-10 couriers. Just a thought.

Since hop drives are TL-18 the only way to have hop drive in a 3I setting is if they are Experimental. They would be horribly expensive, unreliable, and highly limited (they must jump 10 parsecs each jump since they have no governor, which could give them a very meandering course in some places).

I would imagine that while powerful people would like to have hop drive couriers the unreliability of them would preclude their use for critical messages (it doesn't get there faster if it doesn't get there at all), especially in light of what may be only a moderate gain in time at great expense.

It would be sort of like modern day corporations trying to maintain private fleets of Concords (back when the Concord flew) for ferrying their executives around. The costs would be hideously high, the aircraft would be rather temperamental, and where they could land would be more limited than the smaller private jets, all to save a few hours of travel time.

You don't get to be a megacorp if you make those kinds of decisions.

 

[mike wightman]

Well, since we know (meta-game) that there are things like the Hop Drive, perhaps the big secret isn't the Jump-6 couriers, but the Jump-10 (Hop Drive) couriers and the J-6/7 couriers are covering them. So having a conspiracy running suggesting Jump-7 couriers is quietly "encouraged" to keep folks from figuring out the existence of the genuine Jump-10 couriers. Just a thought.

There is not one jot of evidence that the Imperium has any clue that a hop drive is even possible.

Which brings me to something I really dislike about T5 - decimalisation of jump rather than base 6. Don't know why it bugs me so much - it just does.

 

[mike wightman]

Since hop drives are TL-18 the only way to have hop drive in a 3I setting is if they are Experimental. They would be horribly expensive, unreliable, and highly limited (they must jump 10 parsecs each jump since they have no governor, which could give them a very meandering course in some places).

They don't need a jump governor.

Just aim at a star or planet an let its 100 limit precipitate you - all the advanced drives can use this to make insystem jumps or jumps of 1 parsec to maximum.

 

[arbitrary.remora]

..snip...
Which brings me to something I really dislike about T5 - decimalisation of jump rather than base 6. Don't know why it bugs me so much - it just does.

Because Grandfather concocted the whole Jump space reality.
With Droyne, it's always 6.

I liked the hint of cool High Tech in T5, but would have preferred some of it appended elsewhere in the core rules (not that I'm opening that discussion up).

-a.r

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Wrong TL.

Since hop drives are TL-18 the only way to have hop drive in a 3I setting is if they are Experimental. They would be horribly expensive, unreliable, and highly limited (they must jump 10 parsecs each jump since they have no governor, which could give them a very meandering course in some places).

I would imagine that while powerful people would like to have hop drive couriers the unreliability of them would preclude their use for critical messages (it doesn't get there faster if it doesn't get there at all), especially in light of what may be only a moderate gain in time at great expense.

It would be sort of like modern day corporations trying to maintain private fleets of Concords (back when the Concord flew) for ferrying their executives around. The costs would be hideously high, the aircraft would be rather temperamental, and where they could land would be more limited than the smaller private jets, all to save a few hours of travel time.

You don't get to be a megacorp if you make those kinds of decisions.

Well, they are a higher TL than I remembered from the drafts, but I just checked and they are Standard at TL-H (17) so at TL-F they are Experimental, but that doesn't mean they are unreliable to such a degree as to be unuseable, and if they are produced at Capital then they are Prototype which makes them even more useable.

 

[rancke]

Well, they are a higher TL than I remembered from the drafts, but I just checked and they are Standard at TL-H (17) so at TL-F they are Experimental, but that doesn't mean they are unreliable to such a degree as to be unuseable, and if they are produced at Capital then they are Prototype which makes them even more useable.

But they may not have been invented in the OTU.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Imperium is BIG.

 

[whulorigan]

Well, they are a higher TL than I remembered from the drafts, but I just checked and they are Standard at TL-H (17) so at TL-F they are Experimental, but that doesn't mean they are unreliable to such a degree as to be unuseable, and if they are produced at Capital then they are Prototype which makes them even more useable.

The TL-17/TL-18 issue is an errata-in-process, but the bulk of the texts seem to imply TL-17. Assuming TL-17 as their standard TL, that would make Hop-Drives Prototype (not Experimental) at TL-15. At Capital, if TL16 is being developed/secretly employed behind the scenes, it would make them Early Hop-Drives at TL-16.

 

[esampson]

Early hop drives to me would mean you are looking at things that have a rough correspondence to modern Concords. You are past the stage where you are producing a version to see what can be done (experimental) and even past the stage where isolated copies are being produced for purposes of testing and tweaking the design (prototype). However you still haven't reached a point where the technology has started to see any sort of usage beyond fairly niche situations.

Sure, the Imperial Navy probably has a few hop drive capable ships but not enough to constitute any sort of network. Likewise it is possible that there are megacorps that have one or two (especially ship building megacorps) but I can't see them with dozens of such highly expensive and temperamental (double the cost, -1 to any skill rolls, -1 to safety) ships.

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperium of the 1100s has been TL15 for all of 100 years, bit early to be experimenting with TL16/17 stuff don't you think?

Its is also possible that Imperial scientists never make the breakthrough needed to understand the hop drive even exists.

TL11 Vilani never invented the meson gun, TL12 Terrans didn't invent the meson screen. Just because something is possible on the TL charts doesn't mean it is automatically discovered in the setting.

 

[whulorigan]

Early hop drives to me would mean you are looking at things that have a rough correspondence to modern Concords. You are past the stage where you are producing a version to see what can be done (experimental) and even past the stage where isolated copies are being produced for purposes of testing and tweaking the design (prototype). However you still haven't reached a point where the technology has started to see any sort of usage beyond fairly niche situations.

Sure, the Imperial Navy probably has a few hop drive capable ships but not enough to constitute any sort of network. Likewise it is possible that there are megacorps that have one or two (especially ship building megacorps) but I can't see them with dozens of such highly expensive and temperamental (double the cost, -1 to any skill rolls, -1 to safety) ships.

In general I would agree.

The T5 Beta implied that "Experimental" technology (Standard TL -3) represents the "hand-built" types that you would find in a laboratory, IIRC. "Prototypes" (Standard TL -2) represent a small number of "test" devices to work out the details of the technology, and Early (Standard TL -1) are the first "production models" (basic no frills, with probably a few quirks until the technology matures at the next/standard tech level). Your Concord example is a good illustration of what I think "Early" technology would look like.

However, since we are talking about Jump Technology in particular, Ranke's comment above needs to be considered as well. T5 makes the assertion that Jump (as well as its higher-level cousins) are technologies that require a certain "intuitive leap" in order to discover. One of the examples in the BBB (I do not remember where) talks of a race that never invented Jump at all, but did go right to either Hop or Skip Drives when they eventually did stumble upon FTL-technology at sufficiently high-TL. One could reasonably ask if the process works the other way around as well: If one discovers Jump-Drive, is it a forgone conclusion that they will eventually work out the parameters of Hop (or higher) drives as well, or might additional "intuitive leaps" be necessary?

Despite its TL, the Imperium may simply not have a sufficiently advanced working theory of "hyperspaces" to produce a working Hop-Drive.

(The "Emperor's Eyes Only" Secret Report of the IISS in the T5 Book concerning life across the galaxy, however, might indicate that IISS has, in fact, utilized the technology).

 

[Carlobrand]

"Hop" drive? How is that different from Jump other than going farther and maybe not having a choice in how far?

...The T5 Beta implied that "Experimental" technology (Standard TL -3) represents the "hand-built" types that you would find in a laboratory, IIRC. "Prototypes" (Standard TL -2) represent a small number of "test" devices to work out the details of the technology, and Early (Standard TL -1) are the first "production models" (basic no frills, with probably a few quirks until the technology matures at the next/standard tech level). ...

I don't know how T5 is laying out the tech levels, but it occurs to me that there's a whole heck of a lot of difference between TL 7 airplanes and the TL4 pre-Wright experimentals, much less the TL5 biplanes. Big lotta difference between a TL7 computer and the TL4 Babbage engines. If that's the kind of gap you're seeing between your TL17/18 hopper and a possible TL15 variety, it must be a very scary thing to ride in a TL15 hopper.

 

[whulorigan]

"Hop" drive? How is that different from Jump other than going farther and maybe not having a choice in how far?

I don't know how T5 is laying out the tech levels . . .

I am not sure if I understand the question. Hop Drive is not different from Jump other than going farther, faster.

Based on the T5 RAW:

Jump Drive Standard TL of Introduction: TL-9 (Rated in pc /week)
Hop Drive Standard TL of Introduction: TL-17 (Rated in 10's pc /day)
Skip Drive Standard TL of Introduction: TL-20 (Rated in 100's pc /3.5 hours)
.
.
.
​

Experimental versions of technology are Standard TL -3
Prototype versions of technology are Standard TL -2
Early versions of technology are Standard TL -1

All "Hyperdrives" (of various levels) do not have a Jump/Hop/Skip Governor at below Standard TL, and thus always Jump/Hop/Skip their full rated distance (i.e. they cannot jump less than their rating). To deliberately do this at below standard TL, one must aim for a 100-dia gravity well and "force precipitate" the ship out of jumpspace at the destination 100-dia limit.

. . . it occurs to me that there's a whole heck of a lot of difference between TL 7 airplanes and the TL4 pre-Wright experimentals, much less the TL5 biplanes. Big lotta difference between a TL7 computer and the TL4 Babbage engines. If that's the kind of gap you're seeing between your TL17/18 hopper and a possible TL15 variety, it must be a very scary thing to ride in a TL15 hopper.

Exactly the point. NOBODY would likely be using an Experimental Drive outside the Imperial Research Stations or the Jumpspace Institute, Prototype Drives would probably be undergoing testing at such an institute (or in special circumstances might be used for a mission where it was desperately needed). An Early Drive, on the other hand, is an actual basic limited-production model.

I believe the implications of the above posts were suggesting that on Capital there may indeed be access to some TL-16 technology "secretly" in use by the Imperial Services, which might allow for the possibility of some Early Hop-1 Drives (assuming Hop Drive is a Standard TL-17 invention). But that is speculative/debatable.

And you're right: I certainly wouldn't want to be Hopping around with an Experimental or Prototype Drive, either.

 

[rancke]

All "Hyperdrives" (of various levels) do not have a Jump/Hop/Skip Governor at below Standard TL, and thus always Jump/Hop/Skip their full rated distance (i.e. they cannot jump less than their rating). To deliberately do this at below standard TL, one must aim for a 100-dia gravity well and "force precipitate" the ship out of jumpspace at the destination 100-dia limit.

That's not how jump governors work (used to work) for jump drives. A jump drive can jump less than its full rating without a governor; it just has to use a full load of fuel to do so.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

That's not how jump governors work (used to work) for jump drives. A jump drive can jump less than its full rating without a governor; it just has to use a full load of fuel to do so.


Hans

CORRECT. But it has been changed for T5.

(I like the old way better).