High cost of cybernetics

[justacaveman]

The cost of cybernetic systems seems to be way off base.

1/2 a million Credits for a normal strength arm? That's ridiculous.

A 20 strength, 10 dex robotic appendage is only 51,000 credits.

Using the cost reduction by TL difference table for computers, on page 229 would probably be a workable compromise IMO. This table should apply to most electronics etc..

 

[lord irial]

The extra cost for bio-cybernetic replacement probably takes into account strengthening the skeletal structure of the recipient so that the first use of the arm doesn't cause the organic tissues to shear apart under the strain.

I'm sure HMO's don't cover Cybernetics, either- sounds elective to me. Not to mention the cost of an anesthesiologist...

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
The cost of cybernetic systems seems to be way off base.

1/2 a million Credits for a normal strength arm? That's ridiculous.

A 20 strength, 10 dex robotic appendage is only 51,000 credits.

A surgical prosthetic probably should to cost an order of magnitude more than a robot arm on a vehicle. They really can't be mass-produced -- each one will be custom-made to the wearer. And fitting the arm to a living wearer will be a lot harder than just building one into a mechanical object. Heck, just making it work with a nervous system instead of a digital wiring harness will increase the cost a lot.

I'm all in favor of making cybernetics very rare and expensive. The last thing I want in Traveller is cybernetics so cheap that people are able to afford them routinely.

 

[justacaveman]

I'm not talking about making them common, I'm talking about making them reasonable.

In an interstellar society, custom manufacturing of devices will be common. You can see the trends now. It won't be long before every mom & pop store will have it's own little robotic manufacturing unit that's able to turn out customized versions of standard items.

But, that's beside the point. 500,000 credits for a single normal arm is utterly ridiculous. That is the equivalent of 1 1/2 million US dollars. The design rules for robotics is for custom equipment. You get a discount for standardized designs. Cybernetics shouldn't be cheap, but it shouldn't cost 3 million credits to give a character an infrared eye. When the same character can buy a pair of infrared goggles that weigh 250 grams, cost 500 credits, and can fit in a pocket.

If you want to make cybernetics hard to get, require the characters to expend feats and experience points to use them. This is a real benefit/drawback system that will keep cybernetics rare without making a character with a few cybernetic parts cost as much a starship.

 

[themink]

I support the high cost of cybernetics. They are not common in traveller - infact they are almost unheard of. The only reason this might be the case is that they are expensive.

It goes from premise (They are rare) to conclusion (They must be expensive)

Of course, if you were bulding a traveller-like universe, you might want a different set of premises. In that case you might use an arguement allong the lines of : It seems like a possible thing following our technology stream -> They will be common and fairly cheap.

One thing to keep in mind is that classically traveller tends to follow the American medical system (ie you have to pay through the nose) and any major surgery is seriously expense. You will want a surgeon, prosthetics builder and a NeuroSurgeon; that is at least 2 specialists plus a technician - without all the support roles for the design, building and installation - plus recovery time.

On the whole, a million dollars US is fairly reasonable figure for that level of surgery and work - plus at least 12 months in hospital.

IMTU I have "autodocs" which you put the badly wounded person into and they get healed - why bother with prosthesis, get the origional and best. I don't think these are canon, but I like them.

I allow prosthesis - but there is a huge social hit against them through most imperial groups. I'm not sure what I will do in d20 - probably follow the book exactly as written for a little while and then depart for pparts unknown

 

[Rodrigo]

Technologically and economically, cloned/regrown limbs and organs will probably win out over cybernetics for most people. When you figure cost of the cyber gear, surgery, possibility of rejection, social stigma, etc., I would think most people would opt for a real arm over a fake one.

The only ones going cyber would be those after some sort of competitive edge, which would pretty much limit it to the combat types.

Plus, the fact that IR goggles are dirt cheap is a compelling reason why cybernetic IR eyes never would be. If you have a cheap alternative that poses no health risks, is there when you need it and not when you don't, and doesn't have people looking at you like Frankenstein, there would not be much incentive for expensive alternatives.

 

[wordwildwebb]

I'm all in favor of making cybernetics very rare and expensive. The last thing I want in Traveller is cybernetics so cheap that people are able to afford them routinely.[/QB]

Amen. Traveller ain't William Gibson, it ain't Cyberpunk 2020. Sure, the tech is there, but it is not a big part of the story. Make em cheap and everyone will have them.

I look at it this way - that the reason it is so expensive in the setting is that little if any official research went into it. When the subject came up in a game I was running I explained that there was a stigma attached to being 'borged - you were seen as missing some of your humaniti (or Vargrity, etc). So the social stigme meant folks did not seek it, meant researchers did not advance it to the point of finding efficiencies in production, and meant that the quantities produced are small therefore expensive.

But then I always try to make suspension of disbelief easier for my players... at any rate they bought into it.

 

[William]

Originally posted by wordwildwebb:

When the subject came up in a game I was running I explained that there was a stigma attached to being 'borged - you were seen as missing some of your humaniti (or Vargrity, etc).

That's pretty much the reason in the OTU - the distaste for robotics in general spills over very quickly to cyborgs. Imperial law makes even a sentiant robot a non-citizen; Margaret in the Rebellion Milleau makes anyone with 25% (IIRC) replacement a non-citizen that can be legaly enslaved. So aside from manufacturing issues, you also have to go to a planet that has sufficient tech and medical types willing to perform the work in the face of social displeasure.

William

 

[justacaveman]

All of the arguments against cybernetics are based on cheap high tech cloning techniques/limb regeneration making them economically unfeasible.

However, it costs 250,000 credits to clone/regenerate an arm, and 500,000 credits for a leg.

So what do we have, an interstellar society with limbless people in wheelchairs, and using crutches? Peglegs? Hooks? Or do they just shoot the lame so they won't be a blight on society?

There is no "Real" reason for the artifically inflated costs. As a matter of fact, the high cost of medical replacements would make prosthetics "more" attractive.

It does no good to argue in favor of an arbitrary rule. It's apparantly been decided that because some Player Characters "might" abuse cybernetics that there is no real role for them in the society as a whole.

 

[jalexandratos]

Originally posted by The Mink:
I support the high cost of cybernetics. They are not common in traveller - infact they are almost unheard of. The only reason this might be the case is that they are expensive.

It goes from premise (They are rare) to conclusion (They must be expensive)

But everything that I recall says that this is untrue. Gotta go digging through my old Traveller Digests (Issue 9 if I recall correctly).

However, I do recall that cybernetic components weren't that much more expensive than cloned/grown parts.

The reason that they're frowned upon has to do with the Imperium's anti-robot as sentient stance. The article also mentions that in most parts of the Imperium if you have "x" percentage of cybernetic gear then you lose your status of being a member of Humaniti and thus all associated rights.

So basically, cybernetics aren't seen b/c it's just another Imperium prejudice, much like psionics.

It's been years since I've looked at this stuff, so some of the details may be skewed.

 

[Antares Administration]

So the essence of the canon is that:

"Cybernetics exist, good cybernetics are expensive, but cybernetics are not good." Is that about it?

Then let's assume for a moment that we have a TL 10 or 11 world where, for whatever reason, bioengineering has not advanced as far as cybernetics/artificial prostetics. Further assume that there is little or no social stigma in that society related to artificial limbs, etc. (Not unlike the gradual acceptance of transplant surgery in our own western society.) We're not talking 'jacking or artificial brains here. We're talking about the technology to allow someone like Dr. Stephen Hawking lead a "normal" life.

Would that society be unacceptable to the 3I? Yes, for the most part planets are free to govern themselves, but does that mean that the citizens of such a planet who have more than 25% of their body parts replaced by prostetics could not be Imperial citizens?

[I can take this thread and post it seperately if it's more appropriate, but discussion to date did make me wonder...)

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BluWolf]

While not a big fan of cybernetics I find most of the TU to be contrite and hokey. I think too much of it was contrived and then all the reasons were backass added to explain someones idea of what a "hard" Sci-Fi setting should be.

Too much legacy from an era in role-playing were setting design was in its infancy. Flush it all.

 

[jalexandratos]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
Too much legacy from an era in role-playing were setting design was in its infancy. Flush it all.

But isn't the legacy of the setting what makes it Traveller?

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by Dree:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BluWolf:
Too much legacy from an era in role-playing were setting design was in its infancy. Flush it all.

But isn't the legacy of the setting what makes it Traveller? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes and no. To most people who have been playing Traveller for the past 10-20 years or so, all these little quirls and references to canon is what makes the game for them. Not the whole game, but its part and parcel of the whole experience.

I on the other hand, have never been able to play and have no ties or nostalgic attachements to the setting. I never liked what little I did read about the setting. I loved the idea and still do but the execution always left me a little wanting.

So to answer your question, no, to me Traveller is a superior rules system to play in a "hard" Sci-Fi setting.

 

[Rodrigo]

May as well say the same things about D&D, though. It's the quirks and idiosyncracies that make the game more than a collection of rules. D&D without fire & forget wizards, or (god help us) dual-wielding rangers, or (I wish) drow would just be another rules system.

It's been a long time since I played Traveller (since right after I got 'Snapshot' as I recall), but I'm looking forward to a good sci-fi setting with some history. It's the setting, and the idea that things have happened before the players came about, and will continue after they're dead. That's one reason why I'm seriously uninterested in D20 modern.

 

[Commonman]

You have to make Traveller your own, if you want cybernetics to be rare and pricey then they should be. If your campaign calls for cheap cybernetics you can get from gumball machines then that is the way it should be. Cut the prices by half or a qaurter if you like, it is your game. As far as canon goes we arent the catholic church and do not burn people for coming up with there own heresy.

 

[Ben W Bell]

Hurrah. A voice of reason echoing what I was about to say, and usually do say. If you have a problem with a part of the game. Then change it. It's your game. The rules are guidelines only, they're not going to send round a group of Vargr mercenaries if you decide something shoudl be cheaper. Change things to suit your own style of game and playing, these things are not set in stone.

Would get rid of a lot of these little arguments.

 

[themink]

Originally posted by Commonman:
As far as canon goes we arent the catholic church and do not burn people for coming up with there own heresy.

We aren't? We Don't?

Drat, Looks like I'll have to dismiss my Vargr suicide squad, they had shaved their wrists and everything!

 

[BluWolf]

I totally agree and I think most people that adopt this hobby beyond a passing fancy do adopt things to their own.

That is one of the greatest things about the T20 version of Traveller. You have this wealth of material either closley related or completley different, that the novice game designer or GM can throw in with relative ease and assurance that things won't end up TO broken.

On the glorious day that I find some players willing to play something OTHER than D&D, I plan on using a hombrewed universe with a lot of material mixed in from other D20 resources:

Core - T20 and some Spycraft
Sanity rules from CoC
Some Aliens from Star Wars (the minor ones)
Monks from D&D using Ken Hoods martial arts rules.
Many monsters from various D20 source books.
Maybe even some - superhero/FX stuff from D20 Modern.

Its a big galaxy afterall.............

 

[Luthyr]

Even with advances in transplants and cybernetics in the Traveller setting, I can still see it being very much a thing for rich people. Commerce is what drives most of the Traveller tech, and I can see med firms keeping the expenses high so that the rich people with money only get the "good" cybernetics... for a cost.