High cost of cybernetics
- Thread starter justacaveman
- Start date
I'd suggest that regeneration would almost always be preferable to cybernetics if available, and therefore the cost of regeneration would be significantly less monetarily. In addition, aside from having to do PT to regain (or gain) strength in the regenerated limb, or live on a dialysis machine while the new kidney is growing, it would be a lot easier to do those things than to learn how to use your new cybernetic appendage.
Also, I'd suggest that limb regeneration (if available) would certainly be written into the medical care clause of any reasonable mercenary ticket at high TL. Also that any society, wanting to maintain a corps of healthy, able-bodied workers, would make regeneration available for all as soon as resonable cost levels were reached (like transplants today v. 20 years ago).
Granted that some extreme players would try to use cybernetics to gain a combat advantage (a la the six million dollar man); I'd counteract this by having their favorite cyber-part break down at inopportune times (it is a machine after all), run outta juice, etc. Not to mention the natives of that TL9 planet looking at you real funny, or the bad guys who capture such a PC taking a fancy (and then taking off) the limb in question for his own use.
The down side to all of these arguments is: Why are there aging effects then? Much "natural" death is caused by the degredation of organs which could be regenerated instead.
I'd suspect that governments would outlaw regeneration techniques or procedures that strictly are used to prolong human life. There would certainly be a segment of society which tried to dodge that law.
Also, I'd suggest that limb regeneration (if available) would certainly be written into the medical care clause of any reasonable mercenary ticket at high TL. Also that any society, wanting to maintain a corps of healthy, able-bodied workers, would make regeneration available for all as soon as resonable cost levels were reached (like transplants today v. 20 years ago).
Granted that some extreme players would try to use cybernetics to gain a combat advantage (a la the six million dollar man); I'd counteract this by having their favorite cyber-part break down at inopportune times (it is a machine after all), run outta juice, etc. Not to mention the natives of that TL9 planet looking at you real funny, or the bad guys who capture such a PC taking a fancy (and then taking off) the limb in question for his own use.
The down side to all of these arguments is: Why are there aging effects then? Much "natural" death is caused by the degredation of organs which could be regenerated instead.
I'd suspect that governments would outlaw regeneration techniques or procedures that strictly are used to prolong human life. There would certainly be a segment of society which tried to dodge that law.
I don't really understand the argument to make the case that it is financially more or less expensive so it should be used. As someone pointed out the Imperium in general has an anti-robotic stance. In addition, I think that it is reasonable that the question of why, do you have that overpowered limb, when you know that society in general is against it? It kind of fits into the mindset if you have an overpowered limb it can't be for any good. Today in the US because of social-psychological ideas of the US there are drugs and other items that we don't allow to be produced or shipped here. And sometimes it doesn't make any sense from a financial or technical perspective. The same can be said for Traveller.
True you can have a planet that is a cybernetic stage planet or one that allows cybernetics, but I would argue that the rules presented are not for the exception, but for the Imperium in general. Cybernetics are looked down on, are considered bad taste except in certain circumstances, and to the general populace are unneccessary since you can regrow your limb. And for those who do want to approach it from a financial viewpoint,this partially explains the cost. If the society has a viewpoint that cybernetics are bad and it is a social stigma, then those in the medical profession will avoid that stigma...hence the only people who (in general) attach cybernetics are those in the black market...and you can always expect to pay top dollar there.
True you can have a planet that is a cybernetic stage planet or one that allows cybernetics, but I would argue that the rules presented are not for the exception, but for the Imperium in general. Cybernetics are looked down on, are considered bad taste except in certain circumstances, and to the general populace are unneccessary since you can regrow your limb. And for those who do want to approach it from a financial viewpoint,this partially explains the cost. If the society has a viewpoint that cybernetics are bad and it is a social stigma, then those in the medical profession will avoid that stigma...hence the only people who (in general) attach cybernetics are those in the black market...and you can always expect to pay top dollar there.
justacaveman
SOC-12
Then why is the cost for regeneration/transplants about the same as for cybernetics? If things were as you say, they would be cheaper. The facts do not support your argument.
Hmm.
Well, personally I rather like the idea of cybernetics in Traveller. Sure, it might not be 'canon' traveller, but it would add a bit of flavor to a sub-sector if cybernetics were common there. I can see local systems developing cybernetics as a quick way to adapt to hostile envrionments, or to increase production. Maybe they're a mark of social distinction, or used for religious reasons. Maybe a combination of both - a world that won't allow for genetic engineering due to religious constraints might allow cybernetic modification instead.
All this might not get anyone's notice in our fictional subsector...but when anyone travels anywhere else in the Imperium they'd be looked at, poked, prodded, subject to frequent harrassment, forced to pay heavy taxes or legal fees and insurance rates.
The same thing for genetic engineering. Anyone making extensive use of bioware is going to be watched very closely by local authorites.
As to the cost of it all....I don't see a problem with lowering the price, so long as the social drawbacks are played up. And there's always cost of upkeep for the electronic bits. Maintence fees, repairs due to combat, normal wear/tear, upgrades and the like. Just finding a reliable doc could be an adventure in and of itself.
Just my .02 creds.
Well, personally I rather like the idea of cybernetics in Traveller. Sure, it might not be 'canon' traveller, but it would add a bit of flavor to a sub-sector if cybernetics were common there. I can see local systems developing cybernetics as a quick way to adapt to hostile envrionments, or to increase production. Maybe they're a mark of social distinction, or used for religious reasons. Maybe a combination of both - a world that won't allow for genetic engineering due to religious constraints might allow cybernetic modification instead.
All this might not get anyone's notice in our fictional subsector...but when anyone travels anywhere else in the Imperium they'd be looked at, poked, prodded, subject to frequent harrassment, forced to pay heavy taxes or legal fees and insurance rates.
The same thing for genetic engineering. Anyone making extensive use of bioware is going to be watched very closely by local authorites.
As to the cost of it all....I don't see a problem with lowering the price, so long as the social drawbacks are played up. And there's always cost of upkeep for the electronic bits. Maintence fees, repairs due to combat, normal wear/tear, upgrades and the like. Just finding a reliable doc could be an adventure in and of itself.
Just my .02 creds.
Then why is the cost for regeneration/transplants about the same as for cybernetics? If things were as you say, they would be cheaper. The facts do not support your argument.
you missed the initial point(s). My first point is that Traveller, in general, is anti-cybernetic. This may or may not be a realistic viewpoint, but it is the one that exist. Moreover, this is a social psychological perception and from that position it drives everything else.
My second point, was that this MAY drive the cost of cybernetics. From the post that I read, my understanding was that they should be less expensive because they are easier to make, they can be mass produced, and a host of other reason. I was not making a comparison between the cost of regneration and cybernetics. I am saying that the reason cybernetics cost so much is that they are socially unacceptable and that makes them unacceptable in other categories. So, it is not considered a proper medical proceedure for missing limbs or other injured parts so doctors don't do it. If you want to get it done then you need to go to the "black market" to get it done and that costs.
In another words, cybernetics probably are much cheaper to produce. The engineering of them allow mass production with only minor tweaks necessary to make them work for someone. However, because of the stigma the cost rivals that of regeneration. I hope that better explains my argument.
you missed the initial point(s). My first point is that Traveller, in general, is anti-cybernetic. This may or may not be a realistic viewpoint, but it is the one that exist. Moreover, this is a social psychological perception and from that position it drives everything else.
My second point, was that this MAY drive the cost of cybernetics. From the post that I read, my understanding was that they should be less expensive because they are easier to make, they can be mass produced, and a host of other reason. I was not making a comparison between the cost of regneration and cybernetics. I am saying that the reason cybernetics cost so much is that they are socially unacceptable and that makes them unacceptable in other categories. So, it is not considered a proper medical proceedure for missing limbs or other injured parts so doctors don't do it. If you want to get it done then you need to go to the "black market" to get it done and that costs.
In another words, cybernetics probably are much cheaper to produce. The engineering of them allow mass production with only minor tweaks necessary to make them work for someone. However, because of the stigma the cost rivals that of regeneration. I hope that better explains my argument.
I would disagree with the view the Traveller is anti-cybernetic. It's not, per se, anti-cybernetic at all. It's more humanocentric, an important but subtle difference. Any deviation from the 'human norm' is what mainstream Imperial culture frowns on, not cybering up to the gills 'cause it's kewl.
Why mention it? Because the reasons why Imperial forces would shun a world that's fond of cybernetics wouldn't be because they thought it was a world of criminals (they're fine with that, as long as they pay taxes when due) but they'd hate/fear a world that was so ready to cut away thier humanti for cold machinery. And they'd keep everyone else far away from such an alien world as well, since contact with such a society would only come to a bad end.
Why mention it? Because the reasons why Imperial forces would shun a world that's fond of cybernetics wouldn't be because they thought it was a world of criminals (they're fine with that, as long as they pay taxes when due) but they'd hate/fear a world that was so ready to cut away thier humanti for cold machinery. And they'd keep everyone else far away from such an alien world as well, since contact with such a society would only come to a bad end.
Imagine the terror with which you would be watching software "updates" and "bug reports" if the software they are talking about is running inside you.Originally posted by Luthyr:
There's also that whole little niggling detail of trepanning - cutting a hole in your skull so you can insert a neural interface. A lot of people think the idea of elective surgery to implant cyberware is all well and good, but go all wimpy when they're faced with a RL needle!
Who volunteers for Beta testing of new products - that will drop the innovation rate down a tiny bit.
Being humancentric may more accurately reflect how the Imperium acts. I also agree, that the Imperium wouldn't stop a world from joining because its citizens use cybernetics. However, with the Imperium being the dominant or meta-culture the planet might face strong social problems in dealing with Imperials. Just a thought.
Being humancentric may more accurately reflect how the Imperium acts. I also agree, that the Imperium wouldn't stop a world from joining because its citizens use cybernetics. However, with the Imperium being the dominant or meta-culture the planet might face strong social problems in dealing with Imperials. Just a thought.
justacaveman
SOC-12
All this speculation is irrelevant if the costs of regeneration, cloning, and cybernetics is so high that only the very rich can afford any of the procedures. High-Tech prosthetics are cybernetics, and by canon "all" cybernetics are frowned on. The only "real" reason for this appears to be to keep players from having cybernetic enhanced characters. The Imperium consists of thousands of systems of very different cultures, such a universal attitude toward cybernetics is "impossible" not unlikely. There is no real reason for the rules being as they are, they are artificial restrictions with no basis in reality. You can try and come up with whatever justifications you want, but the rules as designed just don't work in the real world. Previous versions of Traveller had a more realistic view of such things. If you can build a Str 20 Dex 10 robotic arm that looks humanoid for 20,000 credits, you can build an average strength cybernetic arm for about the same price (not the 500,000 credits in the rules). The design rules are inconsistant, it's irrelevant to the design what the social stigma is to it's use. The listed costs for all the medical procedures for limb replacement are ridiculous. It appears that throughout the galaxy spanning Imperium, the only people with whole bodies are the very rich. Everyone else must be running around on crutches, riding wheelchairs, and scratching their peglegs with their hooks!
Rationale:
The Imperium has many sweeping attitudes that do cover the entire thing. The obvious two are Psionics and Cybernetics. Both of these have good play-balance problems if you allow them to be common.
Other games address the play balance in different ways (example Shadowrun - replacing bits of your body made you go insane over time)
So if you want cybernetics in your trav universe then have them - but be aware of the play balance aspects because otherwise your players will end up fully borged.
Stepping back out of Game mechanics into social engineering:
The Imperium has a single set of rules adjudicated by a consistant body accross it's entire extent(Navy/Scout/etc) - so it can impose social mores. If the ref wants these social mores to include prejudices for or against particular things, then they are perfectly justified in doing so. So social engineering can support a particular viewpoint.
Technologically. If the universe designer wishes to say that neural interfaces are complex technical custom built artifacts that take teams of experts to adjust so that they function for a person, then they can justify practically any cost they like.
Historically: Canon does not have much cyber, so it doesn't have much cyber. The Writers of t20 decided to stick as close to Canon as they possibly could whilst allowing enough clues that someone could adjust their Universe to any style they liked.
My Summary: OTU does not include cybernetics - live with it. YTU does not have to reflect OTU and can be as far from it as you like. You won't convince anyone, I won't convince you as to the "obvious" truth about what Tech would be like in the 3rd Imperium.
Aside: In my opinion, Tech will advance so much in the next 100 years that Bio tech, nano tech, cyber tech, quantum computing, quantum engineering etc will totally change our way of life. The 3rd Imperium is laughable as a prediction. However it is a good game universe and I enjoy playing in it (It wasn't intended as a prediction, just a game).
The Imperium has many sweeping attitudes that do cover the entire thing. The obvious two are Psionics and Cybernetics. Both of these have good play-balance problems if you allow them to be common.
Other games address the play balance in different ways (example Shadowrun - replacing bits of your body made you go insane over time)
So if you want cybernetics in your trav universe then have them - but be aware of the play balance aspects because otherwise your players will end up fully borged.
Stepping back out of Game mechanics into social engineering:
The Imperium has a single set of rules adjudicated by a consistant body accross it's entire extent(Navy/Scout/etc) - so it can impose social mores. If the ref wants these social mores to include prejudices for or against particular things, then they are perfectly justified in doing so. So social engineering can support a particular viewpoint.
Technologically. If the universe designer wishes to say that neural interfaces are complex technical custom built artifacts that take teams of experts to adjust so that they function for a person, then they can justify practically any cost they like.
Historically: Canon does not have much cyber, so it doesn't have much cyber. The Writers of t20 decided to stick as close to Canon as they possibly could whilst allowing enough clues that someone could adjust their Universe to any style they liked.
My Summary: OTU does not include cybernetics - live with it. YTU does not have to reflect OTU and can be as far from it as you like. You won't convince anyone, I won't convince you as to the "obvious" truth about what Tech would be like in the 3rd Imperium.
Aside: In my opinion, Tech will advance so much in the next 100 years that Bio tech, nano tech, cyber tech, quantum computing, quantum engineering etc will totally change our way of life. The 3rd Imperium is laughable as a prediction. However it is a good game universe and I enjoy playing in it (It wasn't intended as a prediction, just a game).
justacaveman
SOC-12
What you say may be true, but the rules as written in T20 do not allow for any option for any person to have any sort of prosthetics, cyberneticvs, regeneration, or cloning unless they are extremely wealthy. The result is that if you follow the rules as written you must have people running around with peglegs and hooks, since that is the level of treatment available to the average person who has lost a limb.
The average person has about a 50/50 chance that any paticular limb can be regenerated. This chance is only modified by the patient's Constitution modifier. And it costs 500,000 credits to regenerate a leg.
The costs for cloning and cybernetics are comparable, and cloning isn't even available until TL-12.
The rules as written, don't work. In order to use these rules in the OTU you must have limbless people begging on street corners everywhere. Broken is broken, and broken things should be fixed, not supported.
I've never suggested that things should be like Cyberpunk, with cyberlimbs available at your corner market. But with the prices for regenerating/cloning limbs being what they are, and the prices for prosthetics being what they are. The rules leave "no" option for a character who loses a limb. "All" of the the prices are whay out of whack compared to the other technologies available in the OTU. Nonsense is nonsense and should not be supported.
The average person has about a 50/50 chance that any paticular limb can be regenerated. This chance is only modified by the patient's Constitution modifier. And it costs 500,000 credits to regenerate a leg.
The costs for cloning and cybernetics are comparable, and cloning isn't even available until TL-12.
The rules as written, don't work. In order to use these rules in the OTU you must have limbless people begging on street corners everywhere. Broken is broken, and broken things should be fixed, not supported.
I've never suggested that things should be like Cyberpunk, with cyberlimbs available at your corner market. But with the prices for regenerating/cloning limbs being what they are, and the prices for prosthetics being what they are. The rules leave "no" option for a character who loses a limb. "All" of the the prices are whay out of whack compared to the other technologies available in the OTU. Nonsense is nonsense and should not be supported.
One persons broken rule is another persons "Just Fine". I don't find the TL requirements or costs to be out of line - but then I consider Transhuman Space to be the funniest Space Fantasy (most emphatically not Hard Science Fiction as they claim) written in a long time that will look even more outdated than Traveller's OTU in a far shorter period of time. One example - I don't think nano will ever work due to power requirements and static electricity disipation.
Yes, on some planets you will have legless beggars on street corners. So? Look around, you can find the same in the US and elsewhere. Only the rich can overcome cultural stigma and afford the cybernetic limbs? Hmm. Sounds familer to me.
OTU =\= YTU. Repeat that over and over and over. You can have whatever you like in YTU. Personally I like the OTU's take on technology.
William
justacaveman
SOC-12
Not some planets with limbless people, most planets. That is not I believe the OTU position on the handicapped. The costs are a design error.
Read the rules and figure the costs.
Cybernetic limbs are just modified robotic limbs.
Read the rules and figure the costs.
Cybernetic limbs are just modified robotic limbs.
I am familier with the rules; And yes, they are just highly modified and specialized robot arms; in a society that looks down on those limbs to the point where they can be grounds for the wearer to be declaired non-setient (ie declaired to be a robot) and enslaved (MT era canon).
How much does a kilo of certain entertainment chemicals go for in the US? Same idea. Sure it's a technically easy thing to do. Find a doc willing to risk and then see how much it costs.
As I said, I don't see anything wrong with the prices as listed as far as the OTU is concerned. YTU can have them be as cheap as you like; but the rule book needs to reflect the OTU if it is to be a Traveller rule book.
William
